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Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2010,05:22) hi TT
,
Jude 1:1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:
Jude 1:2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance
They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
it seems you have difficulty to understand this
t,
Notice that it says that they are “Kept by Jesus Christ.” What does this tell you?thinker
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2010,13:34) hi TT if i put bail out for you this would be the same thing. it does not support trinity in no way.
tWhat if you put out a “bail” for the whole world, it would not be the same thing would it?
Jesus is the “Savour” of the whole world!
Get it?
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2010,05:34) hi TT if i put bail out for you this would be the same thing. it does not support trinity in no way.
If you put bail out for me then I would be indebted to YOU! Your analogy supports my argument.It is Jesus who keeps us which you liken to His being a bail bondsman. So it is Jesus you owe the gratitude just as I would owe you the gratitude.
Again, your analogy helps me and does nothing for you.
thinker
WJ
it is the samething is sacrifice acted like a bail out ,and futher more since we all guilty of unwillful sin
and have accepted his protection he has become our high priest in the city of refuge so that we can not be killed by the venger of blood,so we will have to stay ontill the high priest dies ,but we know that the high priest (Christ ) will never die so we will stay forever in the city of refuge (is Kingdom)Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2010,05:53) WJ
it is the samething is sacrifice acted like a bail out ,and futher more since we all guilty of unwillful sin
and have accepted his protection he has become our high priest in the city of refuge so that we can not be killed by the venger of blood,so we will have to stay ontill the high priest dies ,but we know that the high priest (Christ ) will never die so we will stay forever in the city of refuge (is Kingdom)
t,How does this disprove that Christ is God?
thinker
hi TT
you are what you are a believer in the trinity,you know I am not .
you look in the scriptures and try to see were ever you can pickup some view to support those views.
me on the other hand i do not have to chase those views the scriptures comes to me as they are right out of the book,
when they tell me God is the alfa and omega ,i understand, when the bible says Christ is the alfa and omega ,I do understand, when I say i am the alfa and omega i do understand ,do you
?you see TT in a way we are or have the alfa and omega this means in human case is live span
the beginning of is live and the end of is live.In God case;this mean more because he is so much more than us,the alfa means the beginning not of his live but of his CREATION so the omega means he is the end of ALL CREATION.
In Christ case (word,wisdom,Jesus,Begotten Son)the alfa means his beginning when God created him,and the omega his also the end of the fulfilment of all Creation of God his Father.
you understand that now Christ the only begotten Son of God has no end,ONLY THE FINAL ACT TO SELECT OUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLINGLY COME TO HIM TO BE SAVED WHEN THAT IS DONE THEN THE CURTAINS CAN COME DOWN ON THE WICKET AND DESTOY THEM FOR EVER.
terraricca said:
Quote you are what you are a believer in the trinity,you know I am not . you look in the scriptures and try to see were ever you can pickup some view to support those views.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it….And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Son from the Father the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Word is God, the Word created all things, the Word is the Son (vs. 14). This is clear enough for a child to understand. Unless you become as a little child you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
thinker
TT
The Word is God, the Word created all things, the Word is the Son (vs. 14). This is clear enough for a child to understand. Unless you become as a little child you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.this is your conclusion not the scriptures ,
I do believe we never will go further than John 1;1 so i do not see the relevancy of this discussion.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2010,09:51) TT
The Word is God, the Word created all things, the Word is the Son (vs. 14). This is clear enough for a child to understand. Unless you become as a little child you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.this is your conclusion not the scriptures ,
I do believe we never will go further than John 1;1 so i do not see the relevancy of this discussion.
t,Of course you will go no further than John 1:1. If you were to discuss verse 3 and verse 14 you would have to trash your anti-christian views.
thinker
hi TT
we went there already we have discussed most all of trinity believes ,we now repeat it on and on
we going no were and there is so much more in scriptures than twist thoughts.Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2010,11:38) hi TT
we went there already we have discussed most all of trinity believes ,we now repeat it on and on
we going no were and there is so much more in scriptures than twist thoughts.
t,Did you or did you not say that you will go no further than John 1:1? We have not discussed verses 3-14. You cannot because it would destroy your anti-christian suppositions.
thinker
hi TT
what i meant his more discussion on John chap;1 -you keep refer to few verses and i never get answers on my questions ,so why keep it up ,you only repeat those few scriptures.show me that from the beginning in the bible God is not alone but is a trinity???
show me Christ is God the same than the father,???
show me that the Holy spirit is a being and part of the trinity?you can answer one question at the time for clarity.
thanks TT
Hi All
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
terraricca said:
Quote show me that from the beginning in the bible God is not alone but is a trinity??? “And God said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness.
How's that for starters?
thinker
WorshippingJesus said;
Quote And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,12:01) WorshippingJesus said; Quote And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
thinker
Matthew 3:16 And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him:The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind. From Hebrew OT: Ruach: Air, Blast, Breath, Whirlwind, Wind, Windy.
Katabainó: Greek NT: Go down.
And Erchomai: Greek NT: Accompany, Become Known,To Appear, Show Itself.
Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel [angelos {From aggelos}] of the Lord descended [katabas {From katabainó}] from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
The Angelos: Greek NT: Angelos: From Aggelos: Angel, Messenger.
Katabas: Greek NT: From Katabainó: Go down.
hi TT
Group: Regular Members
Posts: 4463
Joined: Jan. 2009 Posted: Jan. 08 2010,06:59——————————————————————————–
terraricca said:Quote
show me that from the beginning in the bible God is not alone but is a trinity???“And God said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness.
How's that for starters?
thinker
TT.to whom was he talking to
or who where the ones talking?for a starter.:
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,16:12) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,12:01) WorshippingJesus said; Quote And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
thinker
Matthew 3:16 And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him:The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind. From Hebrew OT: Ruach: Air, Blast, Breath, Whirlwind, Wind, Windy.
Katabainó: Greek NT: Go down.
And Erchomai: Greek NT: Accompany, Become Known,To Appear, Show Itself.
Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel [angelos {From aggelos}] of the Lord descended [katabas {From katabainó}] from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
The Angelos: Greek NT: Angelos: From Aggelos: Angel, Messenger.
Katabas: Greek NT: From Katabainó: Go down.
The complete definition is…Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
So your point is…???
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2010,13:23) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,16:12) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,12:01) WorshippingJesus said; Quote And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
thinker
Matthew 3:16 And Yashuw'ah, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit [pneuma] of Yahuweh descending [katabainó] like a dove, and lighting [erchomai] upon him:The Pneuma: Greek NT: Breath, Wind. From Hebrew OT: Ruach: Air, Blast, Breath, Whirlwind, Wind, Windy.
Katabainó: Greek NT: Go down.
And Erchomai: Greek NT: Accompany, Become Known,To Appear, Show Itself.
Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel [angelos {From aggelos}] of the Lord descended [katabas {From katabainó}] from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
The Angelos: Greek NT: Angelos: From Aggelos: Angel, Messenger.
Katabas: Greek NT: From Katabainó: Go down.
The complete definition is…Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
So your point is…???
WJ
Is “Air,” “Blast,” “Breath,” “Whirlwind,” or “Wind” a person?
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