Preexistence

[Not3in1]

If God had a Son – I would imagine that the Son to be born would have part of him. So, yes, divine at birth.
How else was he able to see what the Father was doing (we don't get to see what the Father is doing)?
How else was he able to communicate with Eli and Mo (we can't do that)?
How else was he able to use powers like asking his Father to bring angels to his rescue (if he wanted to) – we can't do that?

Angels attended him (angels don't attend me)!

Divine Son

My Daddy was a Banker – not God! I'm just a human women.
Jesus' Daddy was God – God Almighty! He is divine man.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
So conception is not conception?

[david]

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Posted: July 06 2007,05:11 QUOTE Quote (david @ July 05 2007,11:44) Quote I appreciate your opinion, David. But that is what we have, isn't it? Our opinions. Not really. This is what I have: MICAH 5:2 ““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8 “Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.” 2 CORINTHIANS 8:9 “For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.” HEBREWS 2:9 “but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].” HEBREWS 10:5 “Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.” JOHN 17:5 “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” JOHN 1:14,15 “So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)”” (He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.) JOHN 1:30 “This is the one about whom I said, Behind me there comes a man who has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.” JOHN 3:13 “Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” JOHN 6:38 “because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” JOHN 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”” JOHN 6:62 “What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?” JOHN 8:23 “So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.” JOHN 8:42 “Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.” JOHN 8:58 “Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”” REVELATION 3:14 ““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,” COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS: “He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.” HEBREWS 1:2 “has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.” GENESIS 1:1,26 “In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, (Who was he talking to?) JOHN 1:1-2 “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.” JOHN 1:3 “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence” JOHN 1:10 “He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.” LUKE 3:21-22 “Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.”” PROVERBS 8:22-31 ““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.” And now, what do you have? You say we both have opinions. I don't see it that way. (The only thing in here that could even be taken any other way is Proverbs.) I will wait for you to tell me what you have, other than an opinion. Quote Answer: Your opinion versus my opinion. One man's truth is another man's opinion – go figure. And yet, only one of us can be right. Jesus can not both have pre-existed and not pre-existed. It is one or the other. Therefore, one of us is using opinion. The other is representing the truth. But when I look at it from every angle, there is only one of us who is using any scriptures. I would really love to go through all these scriptures one by one. MICAH 5:2 ““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” Your thoughts? *********************************************** Hi David, Thank you for your long lists of scripture! I agree with them all, don't you? We can go through each scripture, yes; but what will we have at the end of reviewing them? Truth? Your truth? My truth? Opinions as to what these scriptures are saying? You see where I am going with this. Pride tells us that we have the only truth. Is their one truth? Then will only the Baptists be saved? Huh? Will only the JW's be saved? I doubt it very seriously, but again, this is my opinion. There is only one name under heaven by which we are saved, and that is Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He came from God and died for your sin and my sin. God raised him from the dead. We will follow. We will live in Paradise if we choose to acknowledge Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Upon this do we agree? Is there any need, then, to puff up with pride and tell the other that they should believe our interpretations of the Scriptures?

–Not3in1.

Not3, why are you telling me this. What does any of this have to do with pre-existence.

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Is there any need, then, to puff up with pride and tell the other that they should believe our interpretations of the Scriptures?

One of us has the truth, the other does not. We cannot both be right.

1 TIMOTHY 4:16
“Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.”
I'm not telling you you should believe my interpreptation of the scriptures. The scriptures are plain.
Read them to a 5 year old and accept his understanding of what you are reading.
You ask if there is any need to try to convince others of our Bible based beliefs, on pre-existence, in this case.
What does the scripture say, above? How do you read it?
JOHN 17:3
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
We are to take in knowledge of Jesus, learn about him, particularly his teachings, but also knowing who he is. Is this important? What does it mean?

david.

[Not3in1]

Quote (kejonn @ July 06 2007,15:15)

I often see this attitude of “show me where he said he wasn't God” or something similar. Rather than work off of speculation over what was not said, lets work in the realm of what IS said. As I stated before, there are many things I have not denied being but it is merely because I have never been accused! I'm not one to run around and say “I am not Batman”, “I am not Casper the friendly Ghost”, “I am not Hitler”, etc.. Since I do not deny these without prior prompting, will you then assume I am those personages?

KJ,

So true. When Jesus was accused of making himself equal with God – he told them he was the Son of God.

Jesus was accused of “making himself” equal…..not “being” equal. I think that gets over-looked quite a bit.

[david]

Not3, I'd like to give a brief understanding of your beliefs on pre-existence or why Jesus didn't pre-exist, or how he pre-existed if that is the issue.

And an explanation of why you believe this or what you base it on would be nice as well.

Thankyou.

david

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,15:27)

Hi not3, So conception is not conception?

Sure it is.

But Jesus had a different biological Father than I did.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,15:25)

If God had a Son – I would imagine that the Son to be born would have part of him.  So, yes, divine at birth.   How else was he able to see what the Father was doing (we don't get to see what the Father is doing)? How else was he able to communicate with Eli and Mo (we can't do that)? How else was he able to use powers like asking his Father to bring angels to his rescue (if he wanted to) – we can't do that? Angels attended him (angels don't attend me)! Divine Son My Daddy was a Banker – not God!  I'm just a human women. Jesus' Daddy was God – God Almighty!  He is divine man.

Hi not3,
So we cannot follow this different man.

There are other explanations for the monogenes son being able to know Eli and Moses and to be attended by angels.

He is truly the Son of God- who was from above.

[Not3in1]

Quote (david @ July 06 2007,15:29)

One of us has the truth, the other does not. We cannot both be right.

OK – then I am the one who is right!

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,15:33)

He is truly the Son of God- who was from above.

I agree!

[kenrch]

Jesus the Son of man had to be born of the Father so He would not have sin as the first Adam did before the fall.

BTW we do have angels at our disposal.

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

[NickHassan]

Hi K,
He did not sin. He overcame sin in the flesh.

[Not3in1]

Quote (david @ July 03 2007,17:36)

I looked through about 35 of the 43 pages on this site

David,
If you have read the majority of this thread, then you already know what my beliefs are.

I understand that you believe you have the truth and I do not. That is OK, you are free to believe whatever you choose to. But I will not continue to discuss my beliefs with someone who only wants to condemn me. I do not condemn you, and yet you feel that there is only one of us who holds to the truth – I'm assuming that that one person is you?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,15:41)

Hi K, He did not sin. He overcame sin in the flesh.

He had no sin but had the choice as we do. We have been forgiven, we have no sin, and we have the same choice as Jesus did.

[Not3in1]

Quote (kenrch @ July 06 2007,15:39)

Jesus the Son of man had to be born of the Father so He would not have sin as the first Adam did before the fall. BTW we do have angels at our disposal. Heb 1:14  Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Hi Ken,

We cannot “call down” angels. Jesus could have, if he chose to. There is a difference there, no? I believe the difference is in…….who's your Daddy!

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,15:46)

Quote (kenrch @ July 06 2007,15:39) Jesus the Son of man had to be born of the Father so He would not have sin as the first Adam did before the fall. BTW we do have angels at our disposal. Heb 1:14  Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Hi Ken, We cannot “call down” angels.  Jesus could have, if he chose to.  There is a difference there, no?  I believe the difference is in…….who's your Daddy!

How do you know you can't?

I have but one Father He who is in heaven.

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

[kenrch]

Behold old things are passed away all things are new.

The Father of my flesh is passed away with my old self. Now I am one of the sons of God.

Have faith

[Not3in1]

Quote (kenrch @ July 06 2007,15:50)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,15:46) Quote (kenrch @ July 06 2007,15:39) Jesus the Son of man had to be born of the Father so He would not have sin as the first Adam did before the fall. BTW we do have angels at our disposal. Heb 1:14  Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Hi Ken, We cannot “call down” angels.  Jesus could have, if he chose to.  There is a difference there, no?  I believe the difference is in…….who's your Daddy! How do you know you can't? I have but one Father He who is in heaven. Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Wait!

Let me try…… I'll be right back!

Nope! Didn't work.

I'm kidd'en ya, Ken. I don't think we have the same ability to call down angels as Jesus did. No angel has ever fed me, that I am aware of?

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,15:55)

Quote (kenrch @ July 06 2007,15:50) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,15:46) Quote (kenrch @ July 06 2007,15:39) Jesus the Son of man had to be born of the Father so He would not have sin as the first Adam did before the fall. BTW we do have angels at our disposal. Heb 1:14  Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Hi Ken, We cannot “call down” angels.  Jesus could have, if he chose to.  There is a difference there, no?  I believe the difference is in…….who's your Daddy! How do you know you can't? I have but one Father He who is in heaven. Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Wait! Let me try……  I'll be right back! Nope!  Didn't work.   I'm kidd'en ya, Ken.  I don't think we have the same ability to call down angels as Jesus did.  No angel has ever fed me, that I am aware of?

Do you have a gaurdian angel?

You mean Jesus expects us to do greater works than He but with less tools?

[Not3in1]

An angel who watches over me? I do believe this. Having survived a near-fatal car accident in 2005, I know that there is a God who sends immediate help in the supernatural realm. Although, I don't have scripture for that.

We will do greater works because Jesus went to the Father. This is quite something to ponder! But I don't believe we are privy to the same “tools” Jesus had – no. I have not been able to peer into heaven and see the Father working, have you?

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,09:20)

Is there anyone else in scripture called the “Son of man”?

Go to this page on Bible Gateway for your answer. Too many scriptures to quote.

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Do you not know that God is a Jeolous God and there is none beside him! The Shema… Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: You should check and see who this one Lord is.

What a snafu. LORD is not the same as Lord. LORD is the word used to replace Yhovah or YHWH. Not the same WJ.

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Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Yet we see Jesus being served and worshipped all the time and he even commands men to obey him.

That one is simple. Again, people seem to be reading through filters instead of casting them off and seeing what is written. The verse does not say that we should worship the LORD only, but that we should serve the LORD only. You said Jesus was worshiped, you said nothing about serving Jesus. In fact

Mark 10:45 – “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

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Jesus said… Jn 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. This is a powerfull statement for a mere man to make to Monotheistic Jews that knew they were only to serve and obey God only!

First, where does Jesus say that he is being served? Where does it say he is God? Col. 3:22 says something about slaves serving masters, are those masters God then? Beyond that, “Master” here can be translated as “doctor”, “master”, or “teacher” (Greek word is “didaskalos”).

Besides, if I “serve” my boss, who has another boss above him, am I not serving both if they are working towards the same goals?

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Jesus said… Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Wait a minute, did he say “you did it not unto me”? Shouldnt he have said “God” or the “Father”?

Cross reference please. What makes you think that any of the above should be attributed to God the Father? What's that sound? Sounds like the grasping of straws…

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There is no other Saviour, Master and Lord but God.

Strange, but I could have sworn that Yahweh said He'd send a Savior in Isaiah 19:20…which tells me that the saving is His to begin with but He can grant such authority as He wishes. Can you not see that there can be no other Savior that does not come through Him as the source?

The word master is used throughout the Bible, many times NOT in reference to God. And LORD and Lord are not the same.

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Grow up k, and stop crying “harlot” harlot” “harlot”, everytime something dosnt agree with you. The harlot church that you call it, believes that Jesus was born of a virgin and died and rose again, so do you dont you? So I guess you are following the harlots doctrine?

To this I can agree. Let us seek the truth and not accuse other of any heresy or being “harlots” without definitive proof and evidence. Neither side benefits and we all take sides. A house divided cannot stand.

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