Preexistence

[Cindy]

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 16 2009,21:05)

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 16 2009,09:40) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 16 2009,07:22) t8 said to WJ: Quote First off, Trinitarians say that you cannot understand the Trinity Doctrine most of the time. In fact, I have yet to speak to anyone who says the fully comprehend the Trinity doctrine. Do you comprehend the doctrine? t8, As a Preterist I comprehend the trinity doctrine. The Preterist hermeneutic brings all things together. thinker And how do you prove it with Scriptures?  You can't.  No where in the Bible is it written.  However I can prove  to you that it is wrong.   Rphesians 4:6  for the Father is above all, and through all, and in us all. Throigh out the O.T. it says that there is only one True God.  And that is Jehovah God. Jesus is the Son f God, even though in John 1:1 it is the Word and God.  If I would not know that God is a title I would sat that it contradicts the Scrioptures I just quoted.  So if you disagree with me, then prove otherwise. One more thing, the trinity also says that the Holy Spirit is a person, how about that, then He is the Father of Jesus, and we know that is not true. Irene, You can't prove the trinity doctrine is wrong until you deal honestly with the doctrine of the exaltation of Christ. So far you have relied on only one statement “My Father is greater than I.” It is at this statement that you “close the book.” But open the book and keep reading and see that Jesus has been exalted since He said that. Jesus is at the Father's right hand and He has ALL authority now! You have denied His exaltation and this puts you in the “non-Christian” category. You cannot prove what you believe when you leave out such an important part of the story of Jesus. All you have proven is that you are anti-Catholic. thinker

I have given you more then just that Scripture.  Through out the Old Testament God is one.  Also by Jesus own word it says that My Father is greater then I.  When Jesus in John 17:5 said that He:”  And now O Father glorify Me together with the glory I had with you before the world was.”
He also was exalted and sits at the right hand of the Father and his divine.  Like Mandy said He is exalted now, but that does not change the fact that the Father is greater then the Son. Also again, so the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus?  
Deut. 4:35 ” Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD He is God, there is NONE
Deut. 6:4 ” Hear O Israel ; The LORD our God is one LORD.”
1 Corinth. 8:4 ” And there is none other God but ONE.
Is. 8?:20 ” To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light (understanding) in them.
Math. 15:9″ But in vain do they worship Me, teaching for the doctrine of men.

Why does Scriptures say that.

It is because it was a Pagan upbringing man Quintus Septimius Florence Tertullian that instetuded that Doctrine.
Irene

[Lightenup]

Hi ya'll,

Here is a thought for you who claim that the Holy Spirit is the third person of a triune God:

Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
NASU

Allow me to substitute “the Father” with the “first person of the trinity” and “the Son” with the “second person of the trinity” and read that again.

Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the (second person of the trinity) except the (first person of the trinity); nor does anyone know the (first person of the trinity) except the (second person of the trinity), and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Now, the term “no one” means no one. So if the Holy Spirit was a separate person with a will and a mind why would “He” not know the Son OR the Father??? Did the second person of the trinity have to reveal the first person of the trinity to the third person of the trinity??? I thought that the Spirit knows the deep things of God…hmmm! The Spirit proceeds from the Father yet the Spirit doesn't always know the Father???
NASU

This is yet another verse to suggest that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Father (as a man's spirit is part of the man and not a separate man himself) and not a separate person from the Father and the Son.

God bless as you consider that verse,
Kathi

[Cindy]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 16 2009,18:44)

Hi Irene, I was raised a Trinitarian, although I never questioned the teaching until 2003 (late bloomer, I guess). I still question the teaching to this very day, for I find it no where written in the scriptures. I hope this eases your mind?     Love, Mandy

Hi Mandy! Good to see you posting, I had no time before. Our Children and Grandchildren come for Dinner, which we eat at Lunchtime. So I had no time then.
How are you feeling?
Peace and Love Irene

[Cindy]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2009,15:45)

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 15 2009,22:40) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 16 2009,13:35) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 15 2009,19:28) Mandy!  Do you believe in a trinity now?  In the past I was under the impression that you do not believe in it. Irene Hi Irene, What has given you this idea? Love, Mandy Mandy!   I am not sure, where I believed that.  So that is why I now asked that question ”  if you believe in it or not.” Irene Hey little German girl, Mandy is still “Not3in1.” When you see her name as “3in1” then that might mean she is once again a trinitarian but for now it is still “Not3in1.” Hope that helps, Kathi

Funny, heh. Yes I am getting old. My memory is short. Have to write everything down, if I want to remember it.
Thank you, you make me laugh when you say that German Girl. Do you know that I am a Citizen of these United State of America? Yes we are!!!!
I guess I am both.
Peace and Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 17 2009,14:29)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 16 2009,18:44) Hi Irene, I was raised a Trinitarian, although I never questioned the teaching until 2003 (late bloomer, I guess). I still question the teaching to this very day, for I find it no where written in the scriptures. I hope this eases your mind?     Love, Mandy Hi Mandy!   Good to see you posting, I had no time before.  Our Children and Grandchildren come for Dinner, which we eat at Lunchtime.  So I had no time then. How are you feeling? Peace and Love Irene

My recovery is just going by so fast, and so well! I feel very blessed. For some reason, though, tonight my eyes are so blurry I can barely see to type. I think I'm just exhausted. Because I feel so well, I'm doing too much……

Love to you and Georg,
Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2009,22:20)

Hi ya'll, Here is a thought for you who claim that the Holy Spirit is the third person of a triune God: Matt 11:27 27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. NASU Allow me to substitute “the Father” with the “first person of the trinity” and “the Son” with the “second person of the trinity” and read that again. Matt 11:27 27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the (second person of the trinity)  except the (first person of the trinity); nor does anyone know the (first person of the trinity) except the (second person of the trinity), and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Now, the term “no one” means no one.  So if the Holy Spirit was a separate person with a will and a mind why would “He” not know the Son OR the Father???  Did the second person of the trinity have to reveal the first person of the trinity to the third person of the trinity???  I thought that the Spirit knows the deep things of God…hmmm!  The Spirit proceeds from the Father yet the Spirit doesn't always know the Father??? NASU This is yet another verse to suggest that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Father (as a man's spirit is part of the man and not a separate man himself) and not a separate person from the Father and the Son. God bless as you consider that verse, Kathi

Hi Kathi

Again, I do not have much time but maybe you can tell me who it is in this verse that Jesus is speaking of….?

“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, “will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

So you believe that the Holy Spirit is the Fathers personal Spirit and is “personal” and can teach, Comfort, guide, remind, love etc and yet the Holy Spirit is not a person?

How does that work? The Holy Spirit is not a person, but is personal?

This is a complete denial of terms. So basically the Father lied when he said…

Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 2 Cor 6:16

And…

Do you not know that “you are a temple of God“and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

And…

If any man destroys the “temple of God“, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. 1 Cor 3:17

And…

Or do you not know that “your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit” who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19

Notice Paul using the term “temple of God” in 1 Cor 3:17 and a couple of chapters over he uses the term “temple of the Holy Spirit” in 1 Cor 6:19?

So then God lied when he says we are his temple and that he will live in us and dwell in us, and instead we are to believe like you that some amorphous “IT” or power lives in us that we cannot commune with?

So in other words we are the “Temple of an IT” and not the “Temple of God”?

So God does not live in you then, right Kathi?

Oh and BTW, you can blaspheme the Father and the Son and have forgiveness, but you cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit or you will not be forgiven! Mk 3:28, 29

So if Jesus believes the Holy Spirit is the Fathers personal Spirit, then why didn't he just say that all sins or blasphemies committed against him (Jesus) would be forgiven but the sins or blasphemies committed against “The Father or God” will not be forgiven?

Oh, BTW, how can we sin or blaspheme against an “IT”?

Think about it!!!

WJ

[Lightenup]

Keith,
The Comforter is the Holy Spirit of the Father. A word picture: think of an endless waterfall, the water comes from the endless source and flows into a pool and that pool fills up and then the lower separate pools receives the water and get filled. Well, the source of the Holy Spirit is within the Father and is poured out into the Son and then the Son pours what is within Him to believers. The believers have the “living water” from both the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son are therefore both in the believer. Believers are all united because they are all filled with the same “living water.” Believers contain the “living water” and in that way they contain God. The “living water” is what God equips us through to love, have joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. The “living water” also carries God's communication to us, His power and eternal life.

Again, the analogy:
Believers do not have the source of the “body of water” within them but they have what is from that “body of water”. The essence of the water within the believers is the same essence of the water in the source.

I hope my analogy helps you understand what I am saying,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05)

Keith, The Comforter is the Holy Spirit of the Father.  A word picture: think of an endless waterfall, the water comes from the endless source and flows into a pool and that pool fills up and then the lower separate pools receives the water and get filled.  Well, the source of the Holy Spirit is within the Father and is poured out into the Son and then the Son pours what is within Him to believers.  The believers have the “living water” from both the Father and the Son.  The Father and the Son are therefore both in the believer. Believers are all united because they are all filled with the same “living water.”  Believers contain the “living water” and in that way they contain God.  The “living water” is what God equips us through to love, have joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. The “living water” also carries God's communication to us, His power and eternal life. Again, the analogy: Believers do not have the source of the “body of water” within them but they have what is from that “body of water”.  The essence of the water within the believers is the same essence of the water in the source. I hope my analogy helps you understand what I am saying, Kathi

Hi Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05)

The Father and the Son are therefore both in the believer.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05)

Believers do not have the source of the “body of water” within them but they have what is from that “body of water”.

So the Father and the Son who are both in us are not the source?

You statements are contradictory!

You are right that the essence of the water in the pool is the same as the essemce in the water fall because the water in the pool is identical to the water in the falls.

The falls cannot be the source for without the water that is in the pool and the falls there is no pool or falls!

Is God in you or not?

If he is then you are saying the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are in us, right?

WJ

[Lightenup]

Keith,
In my waterfall analogy, the Father is like the lake at the very top. Now a lake can be filled with water and can also be dried up. In this analogy, picture a lake ALWAYS filled with water and at the same time always pouring out water below. The water is not the lake, it is what the lake contains. The water represents the Holy Spirit in my analogy.

The lake is always filled with water
the lake (the Father) pours out the water that is within Him into the pool below (which represents the Son)
unites with the water in the pool below
which poors out into the separate pools below that (represents the believer)
and unites with the water that was already in those separate pools.
The lower pools (the believers) now contain the “living water” and can continue to be filled with that “living water” from above.

The lower pools contain what is also in the lake above but the lower pools do not contain the lake bed that is above.

So, that is my analogy, again. The Father and Son are in me by their spirit. That is different than saying the Father and Son are in me along with the Spirit.

Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,16:47)

Keith, In my waterfall analogy, the Father is like the lake at the very top.  Now a lake can be filled with water and can also be dried up.  In this analogy, picture a lake ALWAYS filled with water and at the same time always pouring out water below.  The water is not the lake, it is what the lake contains.  The water represents the Holy Spirit in my analogy. The lake is always filled with water the lake (the Father) pours out the water that is within Him into the pool below (which represents the Son) unites with the water in the pool below which poors out into the separate pools below that (represents the believer) and unites with the water that was already in those separate pools. The lower pools (the believers) now contain the “living water” and can continue to be filled with that “living water” from above. The lower pools contain what is also in the lake above but the lower pools do not contain the lake bed that is above. So, that is my analogy, again.  The Father and Son are in me by their spirit.  That is different than saying the Father and Son are in me along with the Spirit. Kathi

Kathi

Your analogy fails because a lake is not a lake without the water. So the water is the source and not the lake!

God is Spirit, and the Spirit is likened unto water.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,16:47)

So, that is my analogy, again.  The Father and Son are in me by their spirit.  That is different than saying the Father and Son are in me along with the Spirit.

Again that is simply double talk! Is God who is Spirit separate from his own Spirit?

If the Spirit is not the Father and the Son but is an “it” then there is no other way to cut it Kathi, the Father and the Son is not in you! The “it”, which you say is not a person cannot be the Father and the Son in us for the Father and the Son is not an “it” and the Father and Jesus are persons!

Scriptures do not say “we are the Temple of an “it” of God”!

So what you are saying is the Spirit is an “it” and the Spirit is in us and the Father and Jesus is in us, therefore it is the Father and Jesus and an “it” that is in us, right?

You can't have it both ways. Either God lives in you or he doesn't!

Either your body is the “Temple of the Holy Spirit” or “the temple of God” or it is not!

Your Christology denies the simple words of Jesus when he said…

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and “We will come to him and make Our *abode* with him. John 14:23

Abode….Strong's G3438 – monē which means;

1) a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode

2) to make an (one's) abode

3) metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers

Jesus said “HE” would never leave us nor forsake us!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Worshippingjesus said to Kathi:

Quote

Oh and BTW, you can blaspheme the Father and the Son and have forgiveness, but you cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit or you will not be forgiven! Mk 3:28, 29

Yes WJ! Irrefutable.

thinker

[Cindy]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 17 2009,17:11)

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 17 2009,14:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 16 2009,18:44) Hi Irene, I was raised a Trinitarian, although I never questioned the teaching until 2003 (late bloomer, I guess). I still question the teaching to this very day, for I find it no where written in the scriptures. I hope this eases your mind?     Love, Mandy Hi Mandy!   Good to see you posting, I had no time before.  Our Children and Grandchildren come for Dinner, which we eat at Lunchtime.  So I had no time then. How are you feeling? Peace and Love Irene My recovery is just going by so fast, and so well!  I feel very blessed.  For some reason, though, tonight my eyes are so blurry I can barely see to type.  I think I'm just exhausted.  Because I feel so well, I'm doing too much…… Love to you and Georg, Mandy

Mandy!  You should take it easy, these operation are totally hard to take.  I know first thing one wants to do everything, when one feels better.  But it can be deceiving.  I will still pray for you that you get your strength back.
With all my Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2009,18:27)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,16:47) Keith, In my waterfall analogy, the Father is like the lake at the very top.  Now a lake can be filled with water and can also be dried up.  In this analogy, picture a lake ALWAYS filled with water and at the same time always pouring out water below.  The water is not the lake, it is what the lake contains.  The water represents the Holy Spirit in my analogy. The lake is always filled with water the lake (the Father) pours out the water that is within Him into the pool below (which represents the Son) unites with the water in the pool below which poors out into the separate pools below that (represents the believer) and unites with the water that was already in those separate pools. The lower pools (the believers) now contain the “living water” and can continue to be filled with that “living water” from above. The lower pools contain what is also in the lake above but the lower pools do not contain the lake bed that is above. So, that is my analogy, again.  The Father and Son are in me by their spirit.  That is different than saying the Father and Son are in me along with the Spirit. Kathi Kathi Your analogy fails because a lake is not a lake without the water. So the water is the source and not the lake! God is Spirit, and the Spirit is likened unto water. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,16:47) So, that is my analogy, again.  The Father and Son are in me by their spirit.  That is different than saying the Father and Son are in me along with the Spirit. Again that is simply double talk! Is God who is Spirit separate from his own Spirit? If the Spirit is not the Father and the Son but is an “it” then there is no other way to cut it Kathi, the Father and the Son is not in you! The “it”, which you say is not a person cannot be the Father and the Son in us for the Father and the Son is not an “it” and the Father and Jesus are persons! Scriptures do not say “we are the Temple of an “it” of God”! So what you are saying is the Spirit is an “it” and the Spirit is in us and the Father and Jesus is in us, therefore it is the Father and Jesus and an “it” that is in us, right? You can't have it both ways. Either God lives in you or he doesn't! Either your body is the “Temple of the Holy Spirit” or “the temple of God” or it is not! Your Christology denies the simple words of Jesus when he said… Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and “We will come to him and make Our *abode* with him. John 14:23 Abode….Strong's G3438 – monē which means; 1) a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode 2) to make an (one's) abode 3) metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers Jesus said “HE” would never leave us nor forsake us! WJ

Keith,

You said:

Quote

Your analogy fails because a lake is not a lake without the water. So the water is the source and not the lake!

A lot of standing water does not make a lake does it?  Think of the flood in New Orleans.  The houses weren't in the middle of a lake, they were surrounded by standing water. A lake requires a lake bed and when water is in it then that lake would not be a dry lake.  Keith you really want to pick apart every detail without getting the message.  Read this:

Quote

El Mirage Lake is a dry lake bed in the Mojave Desert of California in the United States. The lake is located about nine miles (14 km) west-northwest of the town of Adelanto and 10 miles (16 km) north of Highway 18 in San Bernardino County. from ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mirage_Lake

I admit that the lake bed always existed and the water that fills the lake bed always existed in my analogy.  I could have used a better term than “source.” How about the water is a part of the lake and the lake bed is a part of the lake and let's say that both parts always existed and it never runs dry.  My point is that the water is a part of the lake.  Without the lake bed to contain it then it would just be standing water.  Both parts are necessary for the lake to not be a dry lake.

When scripture says that God is spirit, I see that as the type of body He has.  When scripture speaks of the spirit of God I see that as a part of God that is within Him like the water is within the lake.  I see the word “spirit” used in more than one way.  We speak of an inner man that is within our outer man.  Well, I see an inner spirit within an outer spirit also.  The Father is spirit as opposed to flesh and blood.  The spirit can refer to the type of body He has and in other places it can refer to the inner spirit within Him.  That inner spirit within Him can be poured out to others under the direction of the mind of God yet still will remain full within God at the same time.  The inner spirit does not pour out on its own, it is directed by the mind of God.

So again the analogy showing the Spirit as a vital intimate part of God:
The upper lake filled with living water represents the Father filled with His inner spirit.
The Father directs that inner spirit to flow over into the pool below which represents the Son.  The living water is united with the water already there (which represents the Spirit of Christ) in the pool. (the pool represents the Son)
Then the living water is directed to pour out into the separate pools below that (the believers) and is united with the water that was already in those pools (which represent the spirit of the believer).  

In the bottom pool we find the living water from 2 places united with the believer.  Therefore the inner spirit of the Father and the inner spirit of the Son is united with the believer's inner spirit to form one “pool of water,” i.e. one spirit.

When the spirit and soul of the believer leaves their outer man of flesh and blood upon death, the inner spirit and soul of the believer is given a new body…a spirit body.

Eph 3:16-19
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
NASU

2 Cor 4:16
16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is bei
ng renewed day by day.
NASU

John 7:38-39
38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'”
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NASU

John 4:10
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
NASU

John 4:13-14
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
NASU

Isa 44:3
3 'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants;
NASU

Jer 2:13
13 “For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water.
NASU

Gotta go for now,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:11)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2009,18:27) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,16:47) Keith, In my waterfall analogy, the Father is like the lake at the very top.  Now a lake can be filled with water and can also be dried up.  In this analogy, picture a lake ALWAYS filled with water and at the same time always pouring out water below.  The water is not the lake, it is what the lake contains.  The water represents the Holy Spirit in my analogy. The lake is always filled with water the lake (the Father) pours out the water that is within Him into the pool below (which represents the Son) unites with the water in the pool below which poors out into the separate pools below that (represents the believer) and unites with the water that was already in those separate pools. The lower pools (the believers) now contain the “living water” and can continue to be filled with that “living water” from above. The lower pools contain what is also in the lake above but the lower pools do not contain the lake bed that is above. So, that is my analogy, again.  The Father and Son are in me by their spirit.  That is different than saying the Father and Son are in me along with the Spirit. Kathi Kathi Your analogy fails because a lake is not a lake without the water. So the water is the source and not the lake! God is Spirit, and the Spirit is likened unto water. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,16:47) So, that is my analogy, again.  The Father and Son are in me by their spirit.  That is different than saying the Father and Son are in me along with the Spirit. Again that is simply double talk! Is God who is Spirit separate from his own Spirit? If the Spirit is not the Father and the Son but is an “it” then there is no other way to cut it Kathi, the Father and the Son is not in you! The “it”, which you say is not a person cannot be the Father and the Son in us for the Father and the Son is not an “it” and the Father and Jesus are persons! Scriptures do not say “we are the Temple of an “it” of God”! So what you are saying is the Spirit is an “it” and the Spirit is in us and the Father and Jesus is in us, therefore it is the Father and Jesus and an “it” that is in us, right? You can't have it both ways. Either God lives in you or he doesn't! Either your body is the “Temple of the Holy Spirit” or “the temple of God” or it is not! Your Christology denies the simple words of Jesus when he said… Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and “We will come to him and make Our *abode* with him. John 14:23 Abode….Strong's G3438 – monē which means; 1) a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode 2) to make an (one's) abode 3) metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers Jesus said “HE” would never leave us nor forsake us! WJ Keith, You said: Quote Your analogy fails because a lake is not a lake without the water. So the water is the source and not the lake! A lot of standing water does not make a lake does it?  Think of the flood in New Orleans.  The houses weren't in the middle of a lake, they were surrounded by standing water. A lake requires a lake bed and when water is in it then that lake would not be a dry lake.  Keith you really want to pick apart every detail without getting the message.  Read this: Quote El Mirage Lake is a dry lake bed in the Mojave Desert of California in the United States. The lake is located about nine miles (14 km) west-northwest of the town of Adelanto and 10 miles (16 km) north of Highway 18 in San Bernardino County. from ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mirage_Lake I admit that the lake bed always existed and the water that fills the lake bed always existed in my analogy.  I could have used a better term than “source.” How about the water is a part of the lake and the lake bed is a part of the lake and let's say that both parts always existed and it never runs dry.  My point is that the water is a part of the lake.  Without the lake bed to contain it then it would just be standing water.  Both parts are necessary for the lake to not be a dry lake. When scripture says that God is spirit, I see that as the type of body He has.  When scripture speaks of the spirit of God I see that as a part of God that is within Him like the water is within the lake.  I see the word “spirit” used in more than one way.  We speak of an inner man that is within our outer man.  Well, I see an inner spirit within an outer spirit also.  The Father is spirit as opposed to flesh and blood.  The spirit can refer to the type of body He has and in other places it can refer to the inner spirit within Him.  That inner spirit within Him can be poured out to others under the direction of the mind of God yet still will remain full within God at the same time.  The inner spirit does not pour out on its own, it is directed by the mind of God. So again the analogy showing the Spirit as a vital intimate part of God: The upper lake filled with living water represents the Father filled with His inner spirit. The Father directs that inner spirit to flow over into the pool below which represents the Son.  The living water is united with the water already there (which represents the Spirit of Christ) in the pool. (the pool represents the Son) Then the living water is directed to pour out into the separate pools below that (the believers) and is united with the water that was already in those pools (which represent the spirit of the believer).   In the bottom pool we find the living water from 2 places united with the believer.  Therefore the inner spirit of the Father and the inner spirit of the Son is united with the believer's inner spirit to form one “pool of water,” i.e. one spirit. When the spirit and soul of the believer leaves their outer man of flesh and blood upon death, the inner spirit and soul of the believer is given a new body…a spirit body. Eph 3:16-19 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. NASU 2 Cor 4:16 16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. NASU John 7:38-39 38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. NASU John 4:10 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” NASU John 4:13-14 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” NASU Isa 44:3 3 'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants; NASU Jer 2:13 13 “For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water. NASU Gotta go for now, Kathi

Kathi

Why do you have to go into all this confusion with innuendos and analogies by going outside of scriptures to explain your doctrine?

God is not a lake bed that contains water.

You say the water is not the lake yet the Bible says that God is Spirit, and water is a type of the Spirit.

The scriptures clearly teach that “THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

God can be to us anything and everything that he chooses.

He can take on any form that he chooses.

God is a consuming fire, and yet he is the living water that we drink. God can pour out himself!

Anti-Trinitarians limit God by viewing him after the image of a man. IMO.

David said…

Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord. You hem me in–behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain“. “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast“. Ps 139:4-10

Can you see that wherever his Spirit is there he is, and there is his presence?

David a man after Gods own heart has found that the presence of the Spirit is the presence of God for where God is there is his Spirit and where the Spirit is there is God!

And the good news is that where God and the Holy Spirit are there is Jesus also!

Does God live in you or not?

The Father…
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “”*I WILL DWELL IN THEM* AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 2 Cor 6:16

The Son…
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that “Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?? 2 Cor 13:5

The Holy Spirit
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you “and will be in you.“. John 14:17

WJ

[Lightenup]

Keith,
Do you ever use word pictures to convey your understanding. You don't have to belittle others who do that. Get a grip on what an analogy is.
Does God live in me…have you seen patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control come from me? If you have, it is because He lives in me…BY His Spirit!
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:39)

Keith, Do you ever use word pictures to convey your understanding.  You don't have to belittle others who do that.  Get a grip on what an analogy is. Does God live in me…have you seen patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control come from me?  If you have, it is because He lives in me…BY His Spirit! Kathi

Hi Kathi

So you admit that the Father is in you?

Is the Lord that Spirit that is in you?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:39)

Keith, Do you ever use word pictures to convey your understanding.  You don't have to belittle others who do that.  Get a grip on what an analogy is. Does God live in me…have you seen patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control come from me?  If you have, it is because He lives in me…BY His Spirit! Kathi

Hi Kathi

No belittleing here. I asked you a question about you always going outside of scriptures to explain your doctrine!

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,11:05)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:39) Keith, Do you ever use word pictures to convey your understanding.  You don't have to belittle others who do that.  Get a grip on what an analogy is. Does God live in me…have you seen patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control come from me?  If you have, it is because He lives in me…BY His Spirit! Kathi Hi Kathi So you admit that the Father is in you? Is the Lord that Spirit that is in you? WJ

Question answered…see MY words “by His Spirit.”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,11:47)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,11:05) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:39) Keith, Do you ever use word pictures to convey your understanding.  You don't have to belittle others who do that.  Get a grip on what an analogy is. Does God live in me…have you seen patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control come from me?  If you have, it is because He lives in me…BY His Spirit! Kathi Hi Kathi So you admit that the Father is in you? Is the Lord that Spirit that is in you? WJ Question answered…see MY words “by His Spirit.”

Hi Kathi

So then if the Father is in you then the Spirit in you is God, Right?

Or is the Father in you an “IT”?

God doesn't need an “It” to live in us because of the Blood of Jesus that has cleansed our Temple which has become the Temple of God!

So, Is the Father in you an “It”?

Is your Body, the “Temple of an “It”?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,11:47)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,11:05) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2009,09:39) Keith, Do you ever use word pictures to convey your understanding.  You don't have to belittle others who do that.  Get a grip on what an analogy is. Does God live in me…have you seen patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control come from me?  If you have, it is because He lives in me…BY His Spirit! Kathi Hi Kathi So you admit that the Father is in you? Is the Lord that Spirit that is in you? WJ Question answered…see MY words “by His Spirit.”

Hi Kathi

No, you havn't answered this…

“THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Is the Lord the Spirit that is in you or not?

WJ

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