Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 14 2009,06:51)

I do not expect to change anyone's mind on here and so far I have not been offered anyhitng honest enough to change mine.

If I believed not as you and you showed me scriptures to the contrary, I would change my mind. Why wouldn't I? It would be an act of lunacy to not align oneself with the truth.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 14 2009,04:07)

Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2009,01:04) But Eve was made through Adam, yet Eve was created by God alone. This is a poor analogy to make by comparing it with the creation of all things. First of all the Bible doesn’t state that God made Eve “through” Adam, but in fact Eve was created “from” Adam. God took a part of Adam “(a rib) and created Eve. WJ

Yes there are differences of course, but it is written that the head of Christ is God and the head of the woman is the man and the head of the man is Christ.

The point is that there is an order of existence here.

God > Christ > Man > Woman

When God created Eve, it was done by him, through Christ and from the man. When God created the man, he obviously did it through Christ.

Some people like to blur the lines and put Christ and God as one being. Others like to say that men and woman are not different and the same except for prejudices. I disagree with both points of view. God is unique, Christ is unique, the man is unique, and the woman is unique.

Also it is written that Jesus is the fullness of the deity in bodily form. So he has the DNA so to speak to create all things through. He is the mediator between God and us.

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 13 2009,17:38)

Hi LU: You say: Quote  In similar fashion, they both actively had a part in preparing this world.  The source-the Father, the agent-His Son.  IMO As you say, IMO (in my opinion).  There is no scripture to support this statement.  Therefore, it is speculation. God Bless

Hi Marty,
Here is your scripture:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, BY whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Thank you for seeking God on this Marty! I pray that He speaks understanding to you.

I say IMO because I do not want to lean on my own understanding.

LU

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2009,09:38)

The word “through” means a channel. Like a camel going 'through' the eye of a needle which is the same word.

Channel? You mean like a “funnel” or a “puppet” or an “empty vessel”?

So in other words Jesus had no “active” role in the creation but like Adam was just the “DNA” you call it?

What did Jesus do then when he was with God in the beginning and when God said “let us”?

Did he just stand there with a big hole through himself that the Father put his hands through and created all things?

Again, you can't have it both ways t8.

Was God a “Channel”?  

Let’s see how that works…

Romans 11:32-35
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through (Gr. dia) Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

cf.

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through (Gr. dia) whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

Here we see that “through” (dia) God are all things.

Your implication that Jesus had no active role in the creation but is just some kind of “channel” or “empty vessel” that God created “ALL” things through is false, and is not at all what the NT writers were trying to convey by the use of the word “dia”.

And again, even if he was as you say then that does not equate to “God alone”, “By himself” and “None other” created all things, unless of course you think that Jesus was just some “DNA” so to speak and not a living being during the creation.

And, Thou, Lord, in the “BEGINNING” hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands”: THEY SHALL PERISH; BUT THOU REMAINEST; AND THEY ALL SHALL WAX OLD AS DOTH A GARMENT; AND AS A VESTURE SHALT THOU FOLD THEM UP, AND “THEY SHALL BE CHANGED“: BUT THOU ART THE SAME, AND THY YEARS SHALL NOT FAIL”. Heb 1:10-12

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

Isa 44:24
“This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, who has made all things, “WHO ALONE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS, WHO SPREAD OUT THE EARTH BY MYSELF”,  

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the *LORD that created the heavens; GOD HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *THERE IS NONE ELSE*.

So, did Jesus have an “active role” in the creation of all things or not?

That is a yes or no question.

Thanks for reading!

WJ

[942767]

Hi t8 and LU:

I have read what you have to say regarding this, and I appreciate all your comments, but I want to back away a little while to see if I can hear from God. He may have already spoken to me through you, but I just want to make sure that we are teaching His Word in truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 13 2009,20:04)

Hi t8 and LU: I have read what you have to say regarding this, and I appreciate all your comments, but I want to back away a little while to see if I can hear from God.  He may have already spoken to me through you, but I just want to make sure that we are teaching His Word in truth. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,
God bless your willingness to listen to Him, may we all listen to Him and be set free from any wrong understanding. He will show you and He is faithful.

LU

[Cindy]

To all!  When I read the posts between Kathi and Marty, it again makes me realize how hard it is to change one's mind. I've been there, so Marty if you really have an open mind, God will show you, He did me. But it was not easy. Once I did understand, it was WOW< WOW< WOW tho. There are truly to many clear Scriptures to ignore them, or interpete them any other way.
Good wishes and may God Bless you.
Peace and Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2009,09:38)

It is taught that the source of all is God and that God did things THROUGH his Logos and his son.

You mean like when God works through us? You are right we can be called “channels” or “vessels” God/Jesus works through.

But when God works through you, do you play an active role?

For instance, when God speaks through you does he speak without you opening your mouth and speaking?

When God loves someone through you do you not actively love that person?

In other words we take part in what God is doing through us. We are not just puppets on a string who have no active role in his works.

This is also true with Jesus who was with God and was God in the beginning.

Yet when you or I speak God's word or do his works like “healing”, “miracles”, etc we do not take claim to the words as being ours but Gods, and we do not say we healed anyone but God healed them.

Not so with Jesus. Jesus is the healer. The scriptures clearly teach Jesus healed them. Jesus takes claim to Gods word as his word and God's works as his works and yet also gives credit to the Father working with him.

No man could ever make the claims Jesus made when he says…

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and ”I WORK”. John 5:17

Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because “WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES THE SON ALSO DOES”. John 5:19

The Jews tried to kill him for these statements.

Later on Jesus said…

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

Again the Jews tried to stone him. Because to them Jesus was making himself equal to God, and surely he was.

Earlier in that chapter Jesus told them he was the “Good Shephard”, and that no one could pluck “his sheep out of his hand. yet to them YHWH was their “Shephard”, and only YHWH could have such ownership and power over his people.

Now since the scriptures say that he is the same yesterday, today and forever then that same Jesus who is/was the Word that was with God laid the foundation of the earth according to Heb 1:10.

Jesus even says men should honour him “even as” the Father.

He had power over the elements, storms, etc.

He is the “Lord” of the Sabbath, which was a created day!

It seems that your contradictory view reduces Jesus to less than we are because I think you are saying that Jesus had no active role in the creation when even we have an active role in what the Father/Jesus/Spirit does or says through us.

So again did Jesus have an active role in the creation?

If he does then what do you do with these scriptures?

Isa 44:24
“This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, who has made all things, “WHO ALONE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS, WHO SPREAD OUT THE EARTH BY MYSELF”,  

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the *LORD that created the heavens; GOD HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *THERE IS NONE ELSE*.

John knew exactly who Jesus was and that is why he has written some hard to recieve statements for the “anti Jesus is God crowd”.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.. John 1:1-3

No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18

WJ

[martian]

I am pasting this from another thread because I think it has bearing on this subject.
The original thread can be found here.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin&#8230;.;t=2211

Malachi 3:6?”For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

It has been pointed out that this verse was about the context that God’s promises do not change. That actually supports my contention that God cannot become a man. Before I continue I will remind you of some of the names for God.

Elohay Kedem – God of the Beginning: (Deuteronomy 33:27).
Elohay Mishpat – God Of Justice: (Isaiah 30:18). Elohay Selichot – God Of Forgiveness: (Nehemiah 9:17).
Elohay Marom – God Of Heights: (Micah 6:6). Elohay Mikarov – God Who Is Near: (Jeremiah 23:23).
Elohay Mauzi – God Of My Strength: (Psalm 43:2). Elohay Tehilati – God Of My Praise: (Psalm 109:1). Elohay Yishi – God Of My Salvation: (Psalm 18:47, 25:5).
Elohim Kedoshim – Holy God: (Leviticus 19:2, Joshua 24:19).
Elohim Chaiyim – Living God: (Jeremiah 10:10). Elohay Elohim – God Of Gods: (Deuteronomy 10:17). ?
El HaNe'eman – The Faithful God: (Deuteronomy 7:9).
El HaGadol – The Great God: (Deuteronomy 10:17).
El HaKadosh – The Holy God: (Isaiah 5:16). El Yisrael – The God Of Israel: (Psalm 68:35). El HaShamayim – The God Of The Heavens: (Psalm 136:26).
El De'ot – The God Of Knowledge: (1 Samuel 2:3). El Emet – The God Of Truth: (Psalm 31:6).
El Yeshuati – The God Of My Salvation: (Isaiah 12:2).
El Elyon – The Most High God: (Genesis 14:18). Immanu El – God Is With Us: (Isaiah 7:14).
El Olam – The God Of Eternity (Genesis 21:33).
El Echad – The One God: (Malachi 2:10).

Of course these are only a few of the names in the OT. Notice if you will that many of them do not have to do with God’s physical nature, but relate to attributes of His character. As in Mal 3:6 God’s promises do not change because God’s character does not change.

From “Let us reason Ministries”

When we consider God, a being that is almighty who created everything that existed we don't usually think that there are things God cannot do. There are many things man can’t do, but there are also things God can’t do. That’s right God can’t do all things. It is not because He is unable to, that He is limited in power in any way. It is because of who He is in nature. There are guidelines that even God cannot step over. For example God cannot be God and not be God at the same time. He cannot create another God from a creature that would be made equal with himself. The secondary God would be derived from and dependent on the first so it would be finite. Since he had a beginning it could not be as powerful as its originator. One of the first requirements for being God is to be be infinite and eternal, so a created god does not qualify for the job description of being God.
So what can't He do?
1. It is impossible for God to lie. Can God make two plus two equal five? It is impossible for God to lie, so he is consistent with truth which has absolutes. His standard of right and wrong does not change.
Heb.6:18 He can’t lie = he can’t break a unconditional promise what he says he will fulfill. He is the truth, there is no darkness in him. He cannot go back on His Word.
When he told Abraham to take his only son and put him on the altar, Abraham knew that if God allowed him to have Isaac killed he would have had to raise him up back to life. This is because he already promised Abraham that through Isaac the promises of his Covenant would come.
God can never send another flood over the whole earth like he did in Noah's day. Its not that he doesn't have the ability, He can’t do it because He promised He never would do it again (the rainbow is there to remind us of this truth). God’s nature is inclined to truth which means He keeps His promises.
2.Can God make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it? If he can’t lift it then he is not all powerful. Then the rock has become more powerful than God and whatever is more powerful than God is God. God has infinite qualities not finite, God can only do things that are possible he can’t make square circles or a two sided triangle. It is asking God to bring about a logically contradictory state to his own nature.
This is what is called a category mistake to say he can make something he can’t lift. Its like asking a bachelor what his wife’s name is? What does the color yellow taste like. Color doesn’t taste. Its not possible for God to make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it. If he can make it he can lift it. If he can create it , he can destroy it. . It does not show that God has a limit to his power which means he does not possess infinite power. This means whatever he created is under his jurisdiction under his control, it can never have equality.
“Whatever implies being and nonbeing simultaneously is incompatible with the absolute possibility which falls under divine omnipotence. Such a contradiction is not subject to it, not from any impotence in God, but because it simply does not have the nature of being feasible or possible. Whatever, then, does not involve a contradiction is in the realm of the possible with respect to which God is omnipotent. Whatever involves a contradiction is not within the scope of omnipotence because it cannot qualify for possibility. Better, however, to say that it cannot be done, rather than God cannot do it.” (T. Aquinas Summa Theologica p. 163-164 , Volume I, ques. 15 ans. 3)
3.Can God stop being God or stop existing? The nature of God is infinite meaning no end. God's unchanging moral character is a moral absolute. This includes holiness, justice, love, mercy and truth. God is who He is forever and is the only constant thing (being) in the universe. Only created things subject to time and space which are of a non eternal substance can change. God could not change if he wanted to (which he would not ) Because he is the highest and ultimate state of perfection. Words fail to describe at this point the state God is in.
4. He is not free to act contrary to his nature that is permanent. Does this mean he is not all powerful? No- it means that as a perfect and unchangeable being His commands and actions are rooted in the ultimate good which flow from his nature. God's moral character does not change. “I the Lord change not “Mal.3:6. There is no shadow of change with God (Jm.1:17).
His nature is eternal. He cannot say tomorrow I’ll act like the devil for a while or sin as man does. What God has been, He will always be, (the I Am). He is completely self sufficient within himself.
5.God cannot sin, Holiness is part of his intrinsic nature, He cannot do otherwise.
6.God cannot learn anything new. Before He created anything He knew all about it. There is no progression in knowledge for God as their is with man. God has no limitations on anything that He can create.
7.God cannot answer every prayer you want but only those that are in accordance to His will being done on earth. He cannot answer prayers that would do the very opposite of His purposes.
8. God is always right-When God does something, it is not right because He did it. It is right because it is right. It is not good because God chose it, therefore it must be good! God chose it because it is good, God wills it because it is good, it’s not good simply because he wills it or chose it to be. God is not arbitrary or capricious. He knows the greater good because he possesses all knowledge. All of nature shows this to be true. Order is of the greater design and objective, chaos is not. To preserve life is the greater good, to take life is not, (exceptions are the rarity). This is because all flow from His moral nature. So while God is all powerful he cannot act or think contrary to his perfect eternal unlimited nature, which is the ultimat
e moral good.

End quote —
Some insist that God became a man. In order for the being we know as God to become a man, He would need to change His character in order to be capable of sinning. How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin?

For a person to believe that YHWH can become a man, they must change the moral character of the perfect God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 14 2009,12:04)

Hi t8 and LU: I have read what you have to say regarding this, and I appreciate all your comments, but I want to back away a little while to see if I can hear from God.  He may have already spoken to me through you, but I just want to make sure that we are teaching His Word in truth. Love in Christ, Marty

Absolutely.

Always check everything people say with what the Spirit is saying to you. Every person is prone to make mistakes.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 14 2009,11:19)

Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2009,09:38) The word “through” means a channel. Like a camel going 'through' the eye of a needle which is the same word. Channel? You mean like a “funnel” or a “puppet” or an “empty vessel”? So in other words Jesus had no “active” role in the creation but like Adam was just the “DNA” you call it? What did Jesus do then when he was with God in the beginning and when God said “let us”? Did he just stand there with a big hole through himself that the Father put his hands through and created all things? Again, you can't have it both ways t8. Was God a “Channel”?   Let’s see how that works… Romans 11:32-35 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through (Gr. dia) Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen. cf. Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through (Gr. dia) whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. Here we see that “through” (dia) God are all things. Your implication that Jesus had no active role in the creation but is just some kind of “channel” or “empty vessel” that God created “ALL” things through is false, and is not at all what the NT writers were trying to convey by the use of the word “dia”. And again, even if he was as you say then that does not equate to “God alone”, “By himself” and “None other” created all things, unless of course you think that Jesus was just some “DNA” so to speak and not a living being during the creation. And, Thou, Lord, in the “BEGINNING” hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands”: THEY SHALL PERISH; BUT THOU REMAINEST; AND THEY ALL SHALL WAX OLD AS DOTH A GARMENT; AND AS A VESTURE SHALT THOU FOLD THEM UP, AND “THEY SHALL BE CHANGED“: BUT THOU ART THE SAME, AND THY YEARS SHALL NOT FAIL”. Heb 1:10-12 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:10 Isa 44:24 “This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, who has made all things, “WHO ALONE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS, WHO SPREAD OUT THE EARTH BY MYSELF”,   Isa 45:18 For thus saith the *LORD that created the heavens; GOD HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *THERE IS NONE ELSE*. So, did Jesus have an “active role” in the creation of all things or not? That is a yes or no question. Thanks for reading! WJ

WJ, I have already said that I wasn't there to see it happen, so I do not know in what capacity God made all things through Christ. So there is no need for me to read your whole post, until you understand what I am saying first. (My time is precious as is everyones).

Scripture says that he created all things THROUGH him and FOR him, and when I looked up the world THROUGH, and other verses that use that same word, it was definitely THROUGH as we understand that word to mean.

Of course you are free to argue with scripture. Me personally, I decided to believe it, even though I still do not know to what capacity God created all things through him.

Thanks for listening.

[Cindy]

t8 Your last sentence is that you are not sure to what capacity God created through Him and for Him, it says.
If He says through Him it was a 100% through Him. Case closed. If He says for Him it was 100% for Him. All things…….not half………….all. That boggles my mind.

Peace and Love Irene

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2009,01:04)

942767 Ask yourself this, who created Eve? Was it God? Yes Was it Eve? No But Eve was made through Adam, yet Eve was created by God alone. So if God can create through Adam, then how much more can he create through the beginning of the creation of God, while still holding to the belief that God creating everything alone? Can you see that? To be a vessel by which God does something through, is not a contradiction to say that it was God who did it and only God who did it. e.g., I do not claim to be the creator of my son, I am not that ignorant or arrogant. Yet God did create my son through me and my wife. That needs no explanation and really nor does God creating everything alone and yet we know for a fact that God creates through. After all, all animals reproduce after their own kind. Still God isn't it.

Hi t8:

Your seed is your sperm, and God's seed is His Word, and I believe that the key is that God has spoken prophetically about the promised child in the OT beginning with Genesis

Quote

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And the seed of the woman is Christ, and so, God created everything that He created through the spirit of Christ. Does that mean that he pre-existed with the Father as a sentient person. No, it does not. He existed in the heart of the Father who in the fullness of time would conceive His Only Begotten Son in the womb of the virgin Mary.

Did Isaac who is a type of Christ and of whom it is said to Abraham “in Isaac will thy seed be called” pre-exist his birth into this world from the womb of Sarah. No, he did not but he was the promised child to Abraham through whom God would call the seed of the woman. But birth of Isaac as is was the birth of Jesus was a birth of a child that God intiated to accomplish his purpose in the earth.

The whole of the OT prophetically speaks about the coming of God's Christ and of his sacrifice either symbolically or through the angels and the prophets.

In reality, all who have obeyed God from the creation until the coming of the Lord for the church are members of the body of Christ. And so, the scripture states:

Quote

1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And in the book of Hebrews the Jesus states:

Quote

Hbr 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

And so, his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost and he was through this a living soul born of a woman under the Law of Moses, but the who is the “me” in verse 10:5?

The answer is the spirit of the Son. The anointed Word of God.

Quote

Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

We do know that Jesus did not speak his own words but was in obedience obeying the Father. It was the Father speaking through him.

And so, the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

And Jesus states:

Quote

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And so, Jesus did not literally lay the foundations of the earth, but figuratively he did in that the world came into existence through him. God had a plan before the world began and that plan was to make man in his own image. The first Adam was God's created son and was in his image in that he was a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions. And the last Adam who is the first of His creatures, mankind and angels to be born of God, and is like God in that he not only has a mind, a free will and emotions, but in that he is a spirit of love.

Quote

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Quote

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Quote

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins 1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Quote

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

This is then my understanding after seeking God in prayer about the Pre-existence of Jesus.

My desire is God's very best for you and your family.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 16 2009,20:11)

t8 Your last sentence is that you are not sure to what capacity God created through Him and for Him, it says. If He says through Him it was a 100% through Him. Case closed. If He says for Him it was 100% for Him. All things…….not half………….all. That boggles my mind. Peace and Love Irene

Agreed.

[Proclaimer]

Hi Marty.

Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”. He was saying that he existed before Abraham. I am means to exist. He is the root and offspring of David.

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

So to God be glory through Jesus Christ before all ages.

Q: If Jesus isn't the firstborn of all creation, who was?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 16 2009,19:07)

Of course you are free to argue with scripture. Me personally, I decided to believe it, even though I still do not know to what capacity God created all things through him.

Do you believe the scriptures? It seems to me you make Jesus out to being some kind of an empty shell that had no part in the creation, like a puppet on a string.

Somehow you have convinced yourself that Jesus was a living being sitting next to the Father while the Father created all things through him and to you that equates to “God alone”, “by himself” and “no other”.

Job 9:8
”Which alone spreadeth out the heavens”, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Isa 37:16
O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, “even thou alone”, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Isa 44:24
“This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, who has made all things, “WHO ALONE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS, WHO SPREAD OUT THE EARTH BY MYSELF”,  

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the *LORD that created the heavens; GOD HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *THERE IS NONE ELSE*.

Why didn’t the writers of the NT scriptures who were aware that YHWH was the creator write…

“God alone, by himself created all things through Jesus”?

Instead they say…

Col 1:6
”FOR BY HIM (YESHUA) WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM: (By him and FOR him!)

John 1:3
”All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Without him does not equate to “God alone”, “By himself”)

Jn 1:10
”He was in the world, and the world was made by him”, and the world knew him not. (The world knew him not! This is still true today)

Heb 1:10
And, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning HAST LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH; AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THINE HANDS”: (Jesus own hands)

None of the above gives a hint that Jesus played an “inactive” role in the creation. The Prophets and the Apostles disagree with you.

Who is arguing with the scriptures?

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2009,18:38)

Do you believe the scriptures? It seems to me you make Jesus out to being some kind of an empty shell that had no part in the creation, like a puppet on a string.

No, my stance is more like this:

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

In other words, he gets everything from his Father.

Just as we the Church should be doing what our 'head' wants.

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 19 2009,18:28)

Hi Marty. Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”. He was saying that he existed before Abraham. I am means to exist. He is the root and offspring of David. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. So to God be glory through Jesus Christ before all ages. Q: If Jesus isn't the firstborn of all creation, who was?

So what exactly happened to those experiances and memories from Jesus' pre-existence? Did He retain them into His birth on the Earth?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 20 2009,08:18)

So what exactly happened to those experiances and memories from Jesus' pre-existence? Did He retain them into His birth on the Earth?

Don't know the answer except to say that it is written that he emptied himself and took on human flesh.

So the answer maybe in the emptying himself.

“Empty” (kenoo) – “…1. to empty, make empty … Philippians 2:7 … 2. to make void i.e. deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect … 3. to make void i.e. cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false …” – Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.

Philippians 2:6-8
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[Cindy]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2009,09:13)

Quote (martian @ Feb. 20 2009,08:18) So what exactly happened to those experiances and memories from Jesus' pre-existence? Did He retain them into His birth on the Earth? Don't know the answer except to say that it is written that he emptied himself and took on human flesh. So the answer maybe in the emptying himself. “Empty” (kenoo) – “…1. to empty, make empty … Philippians 2:7 … 2. to make void i.e. deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect … 3. to make void i.e. cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false …” – Grimm-Wilke-Thayer. Philippians 2:6-8 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

what exactly happened to those experiances and memories from Jesus' pre-existence? Did He retain them into His birth on the Earth?[/quote]
In John 17:5 Jeus says ” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
If Jesus can see this, He had the memory of His previous life. That also is the reason that Jesus did not sin, He knew what was at stake.IMO Since all have fallen short of the glory of God, only Christ did'nt?
Peace and Love Irene

[Author]

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