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I would like to come in here too, because I like unity. I just can't seem to see what Rev. 3:14 could say something else. I have struggled with this after a J.W. told me about it. I also ask myself can we explain John 1:1 when the Word was with God. And the Word made all, the Word that was with God and was God. God the Father also called the Word (Jesus) God in Hebrew. Then the Word became flesh. IMO God had to send somebody like Himself who came from Him, brought forth from the Father, to come to earth to save mankind. Even so Christ was a man, He still had the mind of what He was before. He knew what was at stake. Why do I believe that, by reading in John 17:5 when Jesus said
give Me back the glory that I had with Yourself before the world was.
Mandy you are right when you say that the Father created all, why He used His Son to do the work for Him, I do not know. I know you believe that it was not necessary to do so. But we are not God and God does things the way He sits fit. I also know how hard this is to believe it. I have struggled with it a long time. I know I have said all of this before. We might not find unity yet, and for that I am so sorry. But think about a truth which you believe, take the trinity, if another doesn't believe like you do, you can talk to them until you blue in the face. Just an example, IMO no offence, never. If we could remember that God works in diffrent stages with all mankind, should we get so frustrated to the point that we can not love our Brothers and Sisters anymore? Not in my opinion. Disagree in Love and Peace. Maybe I should not bring this up again, I just don't know what to do about this. So, I will let God do the revealing, that is so much better then a mankind like I.
So I will not debate this again, for unity's and Love Sake.
Peace and Love IreneHi Irene,
I agree with you that if you think something is the truth you need to voice it, and I also think that we need to listen to what people are saying and look at the scriptures with open eyes, minds and hearts – always open to the guiding of the Holy Spirit.
I agree that getting frustrated with our brothers and sisters is not showing the love that we are instructed to show to ALL.
Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 11 2009,10:52) I would like to come in here too, because I like unity. I just can't seem to see what Rev. 3:14 could say something else. I have struggled with this after a J.W. told me about it. I also ask myself can we explain John 1:1 when the Word was with God. And the Word made all, the Word that was with God and was God. God the Father also called the Word (Jesus) God in Hebrew. Then the Word became flesh. IMO God had to send somebody like Himself who came from Him, brought forth from the Father, to come to earth to save mankind. Even so Christ was a man, He still had the mind of what He was before. He knew what was at stake. Why do I believe that, by reading in John 17:5 when Jesus said
give Me back the glory that I had with Yourself before the world was.
Mandy you are right when you say that the Father created all, why He used His Son to do the work for Him, I do not know. I know you believe that it was not necessary to do so. But we are not God and God does things the way He sits fit. I also know how hard this is to believe it. I have struggled with it a long time. I know I have said all of this before. We might not find unity yet, and for that I am so sorry. But think about a truth which you believe, take the trinity, if another doesn't believe like you do, you can talk to them until you blue in the face. Just an example, IMO no offence, never. If we could remember that God works in diffrent stages with all mankind, should we get so frustrated to the point that we can not love our Brothers and Sisters anymore? Not in my opinion. Disagree in Love and Peace. Maybe I should not bring this up again, I just don't know what to do about this. So, I will let God do the revealing, that is so much better then a mankind like I.
So I will not debate this again, for unity's and Love Sake.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Mrs:Revelation 3:14 states:
Quote Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; KJV
Young's literal translation states:
Quote Rev 3:14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of God; Colossians states this:
Quote Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. I hope this helps to explain what is being said in Rev. 3:14.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).
The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come!
i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!Quote (Adam Pastor @ Feb. 11 2009,14:22) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).
The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come!
i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Thanks Adam Pastor, Nice to hear from you.Hebrews 2:5 makes it plain that the author was not talking about Jesus laying the foundations of the earth and the heavens being the work of his hands in the Genesis.
He says:
Quote Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak “the world to come, whereof we speak” But it begins with all power over heaven and earth being given unto him when he ascended to the right hand of the Father. I say this because:
Quote Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;Verse 1:11 states that the earth and the heavens will perish.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty I am completely sure that Christ did exist before He became to be a Human, as much as I want unity. I just can't explain all the Scripture any other way, then what I have been saying. If preeminence means first in all, He was brought forth by the Father. He is a literal Son of God. The only Son of God while we are adopted Sons of God, born into the Family of God. Born from above. So He was first in all. That then goes with all other scriptures. Hebrew 1:11 has nothing to do with the preexisting of Christ our Lord. notice how Lord is in small letters , while if it is the Father it is in Capital letters.
IMO We cannot interpret this by either one of us, but by Scripture. By Jesus own words He said in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father , glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You BEFORE
THE WORLD WAS.”
One day we will all know, when Christ returns He will reign and will teach all truths. The truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. There will be a Highway of Holiness where only the redeemed will walk. Until then let us unit even in our differences. Love covers all.Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Feb. 11 2009,14:22) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).
The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come!
i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Hi APNice try! So let me get this straight…
The New heavens and earth and the coming kingdom will “WAX OLD AND PERISH LIKE A GARMENT AND BE CHANGED?”.
And, Thou, Lord, in the “BEGINNING” (not new beginning) hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands”: THEY SHALL PERISH; BUT THOU REMAINEST; AND THEY ALL SHALL WAX OLD AS DOTH A GARMENT; AND AS A VESTURE SHALT THOU FOLD THEM UP, AND “THEY SHALL BE CHANGED“: BUT THOU ART THE SAME, AND THY YEARS SHALL NOT FAIL”. Heb 1:10-12
How do you jump all the way to chapter 2:5 and skip over the obvious to say the writer of Heb is speaking in context of chapter 2:5?
It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. Heb 2:5
The world to come is simply the inhabited earth when Jesus returns to rule and set up his kingdom in the earth. Hebrews 2:5 gives no indication of the New Heavens and New Earth.
The Greek word for “world” is oikoumenē which means…
‘the inhabited earth’. It is found 15 times in the AV and is translated “world” 14 times and “earth” 1 time.
In every case it is speaking of this current world and not the New Heavens and New earth which will follow the Lords Millennial rule.
Blessings!
WJ
Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 11 2009,10:52) If we could remember that God works in diffrent stages with all mankind, should we get so frustrated to the point that we can not love our Brothers and Sisters anymore?
I don't think anyone is doing this here?Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 11 2009,17:12) Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 11 2009,10:52) If we could remember that God works in diffrent stages with all mankind, should we get so frustrated to the point that we can not love our Brothers and Sisters anymore?
I don't think anyone is doing this here?
Mandy! So, we will have to wait, till Christ's return. My life is at the end, I thank God for all, and those here that care.
Take care, Irene942767 & WJ
Heb 2.5
The world/ oikoumenē / '‘the inhabited earth’ to come
is the millennial world/age which will commence at Christ's Coming.And after the 1000 years what happens to that 'inhabited earth'?
(Rev 20:13-15) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 21:1-5) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Note: this is after the 1000 years and after the Last Judgement;
The world that then was is indeed replaced with a new heaven/earth;
where there is no longer any sea and GOD Himself will dwell upon the earth. Amen!Quote (Adam Pastor @ Feb. 11 2009,14:22) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).
The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come!
i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Bingo….. exactlyQuote (Cindy @ Feb. 11 2009,16:09) Marty I am completely sure that Christ did exist before He became to be a Human, as much as I want unity. I just can't explain all the Scripture any other way, then what I have been saying. If preeminence means first in all, He was brought forth by the Father. He is a literal Son of God. The only Son of God while we are adopted Sons of God, born into the Family of God. Born from above. So He was first in all. That then goes with all other scriptures. Hebrew 1:11 has nothing to do with the preexisting of Christ our Lord. notice how Lord is in small letters , while if it is the Father it is in Capital letters. IMO We cannot interpret this by either one of us, but by Scripture. By Jesus own words He said in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father , glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You BEFORE
THE WORLD WAS.”
One day we will all know, when Christ returns He will reign and will teach all truths. The truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. There will be a Highway of Holiness where only the redeemed will walk. Until then let us unit even in our differences. Love covers all.Peace and Love Irene
You say –
notice how Lord is in small letters , while if it is the Father it is in Capital letters.Reply-
What does that have to do with anythng All of the oldest Greek texts were written with all capital letters and no punctuation marks or verse devisions. All of these things were aded later on by translators and are not necessarily indicative of anything other then the translators opinion.Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 11 2009,19:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 11 2009,17:12) Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 11 2009,10:52) If we could remember that God works in diffrent stages with all mankind, should we get so frustrated to the point that we can not love our Brothers and Sisters anymore?
I don't think anyone is doing this here?
Mandy! So, we will have to wait, till Christ's return. My life is at the end, I thank God for all, and those here that care.
Take care, Irene
You could live another 20 years, Irene. You never know!! You could be just a young chicken.
My grandma lived to be nearly 90!
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2009,23:17) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Feb. 11 2009,14:22) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).
The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come!
i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Thanks Adam Pastor, Nice to hear from you.Hebrews 2:5 makes it plain that the author was not talking about Jesus laying the foundations of the earth and the heavens being the work of his hands in the Genesis.
He says:
Quote Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak “the world to come, whereof we speak” But it begins with all power over heaven and earth being given unto him when he ascended to the right hand of the Father. I say this because:
Quote Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;Verse 1:11 states that the earth and the heavens will perish.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hello Marty, Adam Pastor and all,
Maybe I'm not seeing straight but I suggest that some are assuming that the one who “laid the foundation of the earth” whether old or new, has automatically all created things in subjection to the same one-the Son in this case.I believe that the Son laid the foundation of the earth…in the beginning…and yet was not given authority over creation until He came and paid the price for it and abolished death. Laying the foundation and it being subject to Him (the Son) are two different things. In the beginning, the creation was not yet subject to the Son even though He was used to lay the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens.
Also, as I understand things, the earth gets destroyed and replaced ONE time…after the 1000 years. Therefore Hebrews 1:10-12 is speaking of the Son laying the foundation of the earth and heaven that will perish AFTER the 1000 years. That is this earth on which we live today. This is the only earth that is going to perish, not a future one. The Son laid the foundation of the earth we are standing on now. He has not been put in complete authority over it yet but that does not mean He wasn't used in actively creating it first hand. The new heaven and earth are not going to perish as far as I know.
Maybe I do not understand your point completely.
LU
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2009,07:40) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2009,23:17) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Feb. 11 2009,14:22) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).
The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come!
i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Thanks Adam Pastor, Nice to hear from you.Hebrews 2:5 makes it plain that the author was not talking about Jesus laying the foundations of the earth and the heavens being the work of his hands in the Genesis.
He says:
Quote Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak “the world to come, whereof we speak” But it begins with all power over heaven and earth being given unto him when he ascended to the right hand of the Father. I say this because:
Quote Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;Verse 1:11 states that the earth and the heavens will perish.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hello Marty, Adam Pastor and all,
Maybe I'm not seeing straight but I suggest that some are assuming that the one who “laid the foundation of the earth” whether old or new, has automatically all created things in subjection to the same one-the Son in this case.I believe that the Son laid the foundation of the earth…in the beginning…and yet was not given authority over creation until He came and paid the price for it and abolished death. Laying the foundation and it being subject to Him (the Son) are two different things. In the beginning, the creation was not yet subject to the Son even though He was used to lay the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens.
Also, as I understand things, the earth gets destroyed and replaced ONE time…after the 1000 years. Therefore Hebrews 1:10-12 is speaking of the Son laying the foundation of the earth and heaven that will perish AFTER the 1000 years. That is this earth on which we live today. This is the only earth that is going to perish, not a future one. The Son laid the foundation of the earth we are standing on now. He has not been put in complete authority over it yet but that does not mean He wasn't used in actively creating it first hand. The new heaven and earth are not going to perish as far as I know.
Maybe I do not understand your point completely.
LU
I would still like to know what happened to the memories and experiances that Jesus had in His pre-existent state. Could you please tell me?Secondly – Could you tell me how your doctrine functions to further the plan of God? Did God reveal this pre-existent state just so we would have some philosophy to debate on a rainy day?
Thirdly – Can you tell me how your doctrine makes Christ a more viable example for us?
Job 38:4
“Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.Proverbs 3:19
By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.Isaiah 51:13
that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor?Isaiah 51:16
I have put my words in your mouth and covered you with the shadow of my hand— I who set the heavens in place, who laid the foundations of the earth, and who say to Zion, 'You are my people.' “Kathi,
None of these passages refer to Jesus laying the foundation, OR even being present when they were.Love,
MandyQuote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2009,07:40) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2009,23:17) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Feb. 11 2009,14:22) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).
The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come!
i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Thanks Adam Pastor, Nice to hear from you.Hebrews 2:5 makes it plain that the author was not talking about Jesus laying the foundations of the earth and the heavens being the work of his hands in the Genesis.
He says:
Quote Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak “the world to come, whereof we speak” But it begins with all power over heaven and earth being given unto him when he ascended to the right hand of the Father. I say this because:
Quote Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;Verse 1:11 states that the earth and the heavens will perish.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hello Marty, Adam Pastor and all,
Maybe I'm not seeing straight but I suggest that some are assuming that the one who “laid the foundation of the earth” whether old or new, has automatically all created things in subjection to the same one-the Son in this case.I believe that the Son laid the foundation of the earth…in the beginning…and yet was not given authority over creation until He came and paid the price for it and abolished death. Laying the foundation and it being subject to Him (the Son) are two different things. In the beginning, the creation was not yet subject to the Son even though He was used to lay the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens.
Also, as I understand things, the earth gets destroyed and replaced ONE time…after the 1000 years. Therefore Hebrews 1:10-12 is speaking of the Son laying the foundation of the earth and heaven that will perish AFTER the 1000 years. That is this earth on which we live today. This is the only earth that is going to perish, not a future one. The Son laid the foundation of the earth we are standing on now. He has not been put in complete authority over it yet but that does not mean He wasn't used in actively creating it first hand. The new heaven and earth are not going to perish as far as I know.
Maybe I do not understand your point completely.
LU
Two more questions if you will please —What impact did Christ pre-existance have on his Earthly life? (if any) and how do you know?
Since the entire overview of Christ is the hope of the saints. Tell me how does a pre-existent Christ give me hope?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 11 2009,16:05) Job 38:4
“Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.Proverbs 3:19
By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.Isaiah 51:13
that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor?Isaiah 51:16
I have put my words in your mouth and covered you with the shadow of my hand— I who set the heavens in place, who laid the foundations of the earth, and who say to Zion, 'You are my people.' “Kathi,
None of these passages refer to Jesus laying the foundation, OR even being present when they were.Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
Thank you for all that trouble to put up all those passages. In response, without really digging deeply into each passage, I would suggest that none of them were meant to explain the nuts and bolts of how things were created but instead to demonstrate God's power and creative ability over the other “gods” being worshipped at that time. None of “them” were helping Him or with Him and they didn't exist. He may have been reassuring Israel that He created the world and could indeed take care of them.Also, as I have said before, the Son of God was hidden and supposed to be a mystery to be revealed and was but at a later time. Look to the end of the mystery novel and you will understand the beginning of the novel. That is just an analogy, I do not believe that the Bible is a novel of course.
And one other thing, Jesus wasn't involved in laying the foundation of the earth, etc. It was the Son of God that later became flesh that was called Jesus. Jesus was just a role of the Son of God, an agent used in creation was another role. IMO
Love, Kathi
Martian,
When I was confronted with the idea of the Son of God actually being a true firstborn, actually born of God and being His actual Son, His non-adopted Son, I wanted to hear God as He guided me to true understanding. I used nothing but the Bible, no other commentaries or popular, scholarly books. After I heard from Him on this, then I tested it with the Bible and insights from scholars. I suggest that you do the same with your questions. If you have any doubts about what you have been leaning on, now would be a good time to give your understanding to the Lord and with a surrendered heart, ask Him for the answers to your questions.I cannot relate to the questions you have presented here. For instance, I never thought about how the Son's past existence gave Him an advantage till I read some posts on here. I think that it is interesting that those that believe in the Son's pre-existence don't seem to concern themselves with that. I never worried about that one bit but more so grateful that He had that past to enrich His abilities to love and know men and rule the world to come. I believe the more skills and variety of experiences under the Father's presence the better.
LU
Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 11 2009,02:08) t8 Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jesus himself claims to be “the beginning of God's creation”. I would not say “after” YHWH, God has no beginning.
Georg
Thanks Georg.I think anyone would have to admit that the first to come from God would not have a mother but would have come directly from God.
Adam came before Eve and God made Eve through or by Adam. But through Yeshua all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made – John 1:3
The firstborn of all creation would indeed have to be special because his origins could only be directly from God. So who would this person be?
Well this might point some in the right direction if they are willing to listen or not be swayed by their bias.
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. “Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
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