Preexistence

[Cindy]

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 20 2009,10:00)

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Hi Jodi

This is Georg, I hope you wont mind if I reply.
I just want to concentrate on the quote. Have you ever thought what this is saying?
“Jesus came in the flesh”, he didn't come as a spirit being, he came in the flesh, why? because he was the ransom for a human being. “He came”, from were? from heaven. God send him.
I have begotten four children, God has begotten one son, the only begotten of the Father; through him were all things created. The Son new from before he created the world, that he would have to die for us. I wont bother quoting scriptures, I think you are quite familiar with them.
In one of your scriptures it says, “he is the firstborn from the dead”. What does born mean? What happens when a child is born? it is brought into existence, it is brought forth; that does not mean it received life, life occurred 9 month earlier. God does not procreate, he creates.
So, if you believe he is the firstborn from the dead, the first to receive life after he died, what is there not to believe that he is the firstborn of God's creation? It's the same word, it has the same meaning.
Also look at verse 3, and think about what it says. Remember, the name Jesus was given to him so he would have a name, but that human birth was not the beginning of him, he was God's son long before than.

Georg

[Cindy]

Martian

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Georg

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 08 2009,10:36)

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 20 2009,10:00) 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. Hi Jodi This is Georg, I hope you wont mind if I reply. I just want to concentrate on the quote. Have you ever thought what this is saying? “Jesus came in the flesh”, he didn't come as a spirit being, he came in the flesh, why? because he was the ransom for a human being. “He came”, from were? from heaven. God send him. I have begotten four children, God has begotten one son, the only begotten of the Father; through him were all things created. The Son new from before he created the world, that he would have to die for us. I wont bother quoting scriptures, I think you are quite familiar with them. In one of your scriptures it says, “he is the firstborn from the dead”. What does born mean? What happens when a child is born? it is brought into existence, it is brought forth; that does not mean it received life, life occurred 9 month earlier. God does not procreate, he creates. So, if you believe he is the firstborn from the dead, the first to receive life after he died, what is there not to believe that he is the firstborn of God's creation? It's the same word, it has the same meaning. Also look at verse 3, and think about what it says. Remember, the name Jesus was given to him so he would have a name, but that human birth was not the beginning of him, he was God's son long before than. Georg

Good Evening Georg,

My understanding is that we are told that Jesus came from heaven because his existence and his work all came under the direct will of God. We are warned not to deny that Jesus came in the flesh. I don't believe that this statement is in anyway trying to tell us that he existed in some previous form, and then came to earth different in flesh. I believe the SOLE purpose of the statement is to separate Jesus from pagan ideas.

Jesus is the name given to the infant, and that infant came to us in the flesh, he did not come to us as a god or any other sort of being of which pagans often liked to assert when a man was extraordinarily great.  Pagan tradition shows us that men who exhibit to be superior, are given the status of a god, and are thought to be a god.

Georg, the scripture is a warning, not a revelation that he pre-existed. Pagans believed that gods and or their demons (which if you study demons according to pagan belief they were good and bad), could come down to earth and become humans or pose as humans. If a man was astonishingly great, as I previously stated, people believed he was a god or demon that came down to earth. Your claim is pretty darn similar to that  of pagan tradition.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

The false prophets, I believe given the prevalent pagan ideologies at the time, were wanting to claim that Jesus existed in another form before he came to earth and as he was on earth.

These scriptures speak nothing of a pre-existent Jesus, IMO your tacking that on, and even worse is that it really seems to be matching with the same belief that the scripture is warning against.

Georg, you will have to give me the scripture that you believe supports this statement of yours because I don't know where it exists. You said, “The Son new from before he created the world, that he would have to die for us. I wont bother quoting scriptures, I think you are quite familiar with them.”

First of all I believe that I have given ample scripture to show that YHWH created heaven and earth and that He did it for righteous man, Christ and his body, not for some pre-existent son, but for immortal human beings. Human beings, who in the New heaven and earth will still smell flowers, taste chocolate, enjoy wine, music, dancing…feeling and experiencing life as a human being in the way our Creator YHWH intended!

Christ is our example because we are suppose to follow in his great leadership of faith in God. If Jesus was a man who knew of his previous spirit self, doesn't that give him an advantage? How much faith as a human did he really have to have in God when he was suffering to die, if he had already tasted immortality? There is no sacrifice, no giving into the trust of someone else, over your own will, if you were already a spirit being. I'm sorry Georg, not to offend, but IMO your idea makes Jesus out to be a joke, I just don't see the glory of God's work, or the example we are suppose to take from Jesus if he pre-existed as some special spirit son.

Genesis tells us that YHWH created the heavens and earth, and there is no mention prior to there being a spirit son being born. All scripture mentioned of Jesus being the firstborn, all fits in with firstborn of the dead, if the scripture doesn't specifically say firstborn of the dead already. Jesus as firstborn of the dead is a new creation, and he is born into immortality to be a king into a new heaven and earth.

I know you are well familiar with this scripture Georg, but if I could just pinpoint a few things,

Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

We are being told that we will be partakers of immortality into the kingdom, which is considered the new heaven and earth. Then we are being told that this is done according to the man who died for our sins, who as that man, is the image of God. Then we are told that Jesus is the firstborn over all creation. What creation do you suppose is being considered here Georg? Given the fact that there is no mention of Jesus or a spirit son in Genesis, and given the fact this verse has already spoken about immortality and God's kingdom, I believe Jesus is firstborn of the creation of the new heaven and earth. Jesus is the firstborn over all creation of the coming Kingdom of God.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.  19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Jesus is the firstborn into the creation of God's glorious
kingdom in the new heaven and earth. Jesus is the beginning of God's Righteous creation, not the beginning of the creation that fell, but the one that brings YHWH glory and honor.  

In every way this chapter is speaking solely of the man who died on the cross. I see no evidence of a revelation of a spirit-son.

Georg you said, ” Remember, the name Jesus was given to him so he would have a name, but that human birth was not the beginning of him, he was God's son long before than.”

Once again you will need to give me scripture to back up these claims, for I don't know of them.

What I do know of are these and they seem to go against your claims.

Mt 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Lu 1:31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

Lu 2:21And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.  

Ps 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

Mr 1:11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Lu 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Ac 13:33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

Scripture shows that God's Son is Jesus Christ the human being. Georg there is not a scripture that speaks of God calling some spirit being His son, or of Him creating a spirit son. I think you need to take a harder look at scripture, what you think it says IMO it does not.

Looking forward to your response, Jodi

[Not3in1]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 08 2009,15:20)

Jesus is the firstborn into the creation of God's glorious kingdom in the new heaven and earth. Jesus is the beginning of God's Righteous creation, not the beginning of the creation that fell, but the one that brings YHWH glory and honor.

BRAVO!!

“Jodi Lee” What happened to your other account?

Good to read your posts,
Mandy

[Cindy]

Jodi

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The lamb is the Son/Jesus, from the foundation, or from the beginning of the world.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The Father is spirit in nature, so is the son, that is the image God created his son after. What are creatures? are we not all creatures of God, created beings, including all animals? And his son was the first created being, everything else was created through his son.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If this is not speaking of the son, who then could it be?
You apparently have read a lot about pagans and demons; are not demons spirit beings? Who is there that can teach us about the spirit world, we can't even see them. Paul says only God's Spirit can teach us

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

I would be very sceptic of the one who says he has a line to the spirit world.
The number of scriptures given is not what counts. I want to assure you, I have no intention to offend you; you quote the scripture of

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Just what is it that this scripture tells you?
You are obviously passing over some things I said in my last post like, firstborn; only begotten, beginning of God's creation.
When Jesus was resurrected, he was resurrected with a spirit body again, his true nature. Remember, all his friends did not recognize him.

John 20:15   “Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have born him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.”
John 21:4   “But when the morning now was come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.”    
Luke 24:15   “And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.”
v. 16    “But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”    

And after his ascension to heaven did he receive his reward, a divine and glorified body, immortality.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  

Why do you call your father, father? is it not because he has given you life? That is the definition of father; “He who gives life to the son.” The definition for son is, “he who receives life from the father.” That is why Jesus calls his father in heaven, Father.   
Jodi, you are not consistent with the scriptures you quote, and what you believe.

Georg

[Jodi Lee]

Hi Georg,

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You said, “The lamb is the Son/Jesus, from the foundation, or from the beginning of the world.”

First of all this scripture says he was SLAIN from the foundation of the world. Second, there is not a scripture as I previously stated that tells of Jesus being created previously as a spirit-son. Third, we do know from scripture that Jesus was part of God's plan from the very beginning. From the beginning God knew that a human of the seed of David would reconcile the world. Once again there is NO scripture in the bible that tells us that God would make a spirit son come in the flesh.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Gerog you said, “The Father is spirit in nature, so is the son, that is the image God created his son after. What are creatures? are we not all creatures of God, created beings, including all animals? And his son was the first created being, everything else was created through his son.”

No Georg, the scripture SPECIFICALLY tells us that Jesus, the human being was the image of God. What you are saying IMO creates a lie. There is nothing in the bible about God creating a spirit son in the beginning in His image. What we do have is an infant boy who grew in grace and knowledge and NEVER missed the mark!

Scripture tells us that those who are led by the Spirit are children of God. Who was led more by the Spirit then Jesus? What creature do we know of that God specifically called his Son? Ah, it was a human creature that God called His Son.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

The scripture specifically tells us that Jesus is the firstborn of the dead, that Jesus is the firstborn of the righteous creation, the new heaven and earth that is to come.

I don't see anything in Colossians that is telling us that a spirit son was created in the image of God before everything, then made everything. That is your idea Georg, not the scriptures IMO.

[martian]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 08 2009,14:26)

Martian Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Georg

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Reply –
Let’s take you first three together.

What does “firstborn” indicate. You indicate that it means existed before all creation. However the context of this portion of scripture is about Christ being firstborn from the dead. This is referring to his ressurection and not to some pre-existence.
Secondly the general context of this section is about Christ preeminence. This points out that He is first in importance among all that will be born from the dead.
Thirdly – The Greek does not say “For by him were all things created” it says “in Him” It is in Him that all of creation has it’s meaning and purpose. Without Christ, nothing that has been created has meaning. In the second part of the verse it does not say (in the Greek) “created by him, and for him:” it say “into Him and through Him.”
Forth – These scriptures are written by Hebrew men and they view the concept of creation differently then we do. They do not have the concept of something coming from nothing as we see creation. Their concept for creation is the fattening of livestock or bringing to fruition the fruit of the field. In and through Christ the harvest of the fruit of the earth is made to ripen and grow.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Reply –
This verse is speaking of God and not Jesus.

[Cindy]

Jodi and Martian

If you have a dictionary, look up the definition of these words.

Beginning; begotten; firstborn; father; son; gave; sent.

If you don't believe these words mean what they say; why do you bother reading the Bible? or should they even be in your Bible.

Georg

[martian]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 09 2009,03:07)

Jodi and Martian If you have a dictionary, look up the definition of these words. Beginning; begotten; firstborn; father; son; gave; sent. If you don't believe these words mean what they say; why do you bother reading the Bible? or should they even be in your Bible. Georg

If ypu have a Greek nterlinear look up the verses you quote to see what they really say and not the English translations.
If you or online google hermaneutics and find a list of proper principles for interpretation of scripture instead of voicing opinion and guess work.

[Jodi Lee]

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Georg you said, “If this is not speaking of the son, who then could it be?”

I am rather confused at this statement you made to me, actually much of your post has me rather confused because I have already addressed these things, and now I am just repeating myself. Of course Jonh 1:3 is speaking of the son, and who are we SPECIFICALLY told is God's son? Not a pre-existing being, but Jesus the HUMAN BEING is and was God's son, and he was in the beginning with glory, because in the beginning was God's plan that a human of the seed of David would save the world. Your creating a lie, and IMO it is not a very good one. Both the OT and NT tell us that God had a plan, and that plan does not state a pre-existent son coming in the flesh, but that one man of the seed of David would come in the flesh.

Georg, the OT tells us that demons and their gods DO NOT EXIST!  We are told they HAVE NO POWER AND NOT TO FEAR THEM. Demons mean the same as unclean spirits/evil spirits. We see Jesus heal people with them and they exhibit both mental and physical sickness. Obviously unclean spirits do not exist according the pagan beliefs, which many of the Jews during the time of Jesus believed. Unclean spirits exist according to God's punishments on mankind of which he allowed to be passed down through offspring. I find that the belief that fallen angels being demons and having the power to live inside a person causing them sickness is ignorance and man's traditions at their best. The sicknesses are themselves the unclean spirits, not an evil being going inside and causing sickness. Sicknesses in the body, including the brain, are due to a molecular problem, rather it be an error in DNA or an actual living organism such as bacteria or a virus.

Georg I do not learn about pagan beliefs to get a better understanding of spirits. I read about them to see what their FALSE BELIEFS are. When the authors of the NT used the word demon also meaning unclean spirit, God's intention was not that we would define the word under pagan belief, but under the truth of the OT, of which is that ONLY God has the power to infect the body and mind of human beings.

Georg Jesus was resurrected with a body of flesh and bone! Adam and Eve before their flesh was able to die, were still flesh. To be a spirit being in context of the scriptures IMO DOES NOT mean that we are going to be a completely different creature. Jesus is still a human being. We, along with him, will be raised with an immortal body of flesh and bone. God's plan from the beginning was that a man would remain sinless and pay for our sins and die, but that his flesh would not see corruption it would be raised from death and given immortality. Jesus was not resurrected into some unkown spirit creature. We are an awesome unique incredible design. We will be spirit in the sense that we are United completely with God's Spirit both our mind because it thinks like God thinks, and our body because it has the LIFE of the Spirit.

God is not going to take away the reality of how we enjoy life, no, He is going to fulfill it with no more pain and suffering. I have a great deal of respect for YHWH through His creation of this world and His awesome intelligence in how He designed the human body.

Georg you said, “You are obviously passing over some things I said in my last post like, firstborn; only begotten, beginning of God's creation.”

You have got to be kidding me right?

I explained all those things in my previous posts. Remember, I pointed out Jesus firstborn from the dead is the ONLY reference of how Jesus is firstborn according to the scriptures. Remember, I pointed out, scripture specifically tells us that the only begotten Son is specifically referred to the human being Jesus, no mention of a spirit son. Remember, I pointed out that Jesus as the beginning of God's creation, is referring not to the beginning of the creation that fell but the righteous creation.

Georg it is a lie when you say that Jesus was resurrected with a spirit body like the one he had before, for NO scripture states that Jesus previously had a spirit body.

I believe I am consistent with what the scriptures say, IMO you distort the meaning and you add to the scriptures thus creating lies.

Georg here is an example of one of your distortions that creates a LIE, you said, “And after his ascension to heaven did he receive his reward, a divine and glorified body, immortality.”

NO, upon his resurrection he received a glorified body!

Ro 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Pe 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Georg your just making stuff up to better fit your doctrine, it's really quite unbelievable!

To be raised in a spirit body is to be raised in a human body that has immortality. To be raised incorruptible is to have a human body that does not degenerate or deteriorate.

Jesus received glory upon his resurrection, NOT when he ascended into heaven. Georg you have a pattern of making statements and then using scriptures that don't in the slightest support that statement, only in your mind do they seem to. Not only that but they go against what the scriptures really say.

Besides the previous example you have also stated,”The Son new from before he created the world, that he would have to die for us.”

There exist no scripture that says such, but I'd be interested to know which one you think does.  

Georg if you are going to make this statement please back it up with SPECIFICS. You said, “Jodi, you are not consistent with the scriptures you quote, and what you believe.”

Looking forward to your response, Jodi

[Cindy]

Jodi and Martian

I can tell you both have your cowboy boots on

Georg

[Jodi Lee]

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

I must clarify my belief, in case I made a previous confusing statement. I believe the scriptures show that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, and it was done by God Himself through His power which His word is powerful, for when He speaks things are done. Nothing can be made without God. So John 1:3 is speaking of YHWH.

We know as well however that God created the heaven and earth for the purpose of having righteous man dwell on it. Therefore we can also say that God made heaven and earth for Jesus and all people who will be made like him.

[Jodi Lee]

I must clarify my belief, in case I made a previous confusing statement. I believe the scriptures show that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, and it was done by God Himself through His power which His word is powerful, for when He speaks things are done. Nothing can be made without God. So John 1:3 is speaking of YHWH.

We know as well however that God created the heaven and earth for the purpose of having righteous man dwell on it. Therefore we can also say that God made heaven and earth for Jesus and all people who will be made like him.

[martian]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 09 2009,05:03)

Jodi and Martian I can tell you both have your cowboy boots on Georg

For what you are speading, we need boots on. LOL

[martian]

At this point the reader might become a little impatient, and desire to press upon our attention Bible references that seem to give some support to the pre-existence theory.
We are not ignorant of those passages, but claim that none of them give support to the theory if they are properly interpreted. It is unfortunately true, however, as the Bible itself states, that some take passages of Scripture that are “hard to be understood” and proceed to “wrest them unto their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).
Such a reference is Colossians 1:15. It describes Jesus Christ as “the firstborn of every creature,” and some have advanced this in support of the pre-existence theory. If Jesus is firstborn, he must have existed before all others, they claim.
But does not that set Scripture against Scripture? If he is literally “firstborn” in the sense implied by the theory, how can the Bible claim that he is the “son of Abraham and David” (Matthew 1:1)?
And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others?
These difficulties are solved, and the passage simply and beautifully explained, when the Bible doctrine of the “firstborn” is understood. In the Bible, “firstborn” is a legal term, describing pre-eminence of position or status, though not necessarily of birth. There were special privileges granted the legal firstborn in a family. He represented his father, he acted as a priest, he received a double portion of the family inheritance (see Deuteronomy 21:17).
But the law of God provided that the eldest son of a family could forfeit his position as legal firstborn, if guilty of misconduct or inability to perform the necessary duties, and be supplanted by a younger son. In other words, it was not necessary for Jesus to be the first of God's creation to be eligible for the position of legal firstborn.
For example, consider 1 Chronicles 5:1:
“Reuben the firstborn of Israel . . . but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph, and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright!”
Reuben's lewd conduct earned the rebuke of his father, who deposed him from his legal status of firstborn, and gave the position to a much younger son: Joseph.
Other examples could be multiplied. Ephraim was blessed as firstborn by Jacob, even though he was younger than Manasseh his brother (Genesis 48:14-19), and God endorsed the appointment by describing Ephraim as “His firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9). Jacob was given the birthright over his older brother Esau (Genesis 25:32-34). Simri was appointed to the position even though he was younger in years than his brethren (1 Chronicles 26:10).
These examples (and they could be multiplied) clearly show that it was often the practice for a younger son to be elevated to the position of legal firstborn in a family. In fact, this was so common that the Mosaic Law prohibited the elevation of a younger son to this position on the mere whim of his father, because of favoritism. It commanded:
“It shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated . . . ” (Deut. 21:17).
This prohibition shows that a legal firstborn could be a younger son, and therefore has a great bearing on the interpretation of Colossians 1:15.
The Bible refers to two notable “sons of God”: Adam and Christ (see Luke 3:38). The “first Adam” forfeited the right of inheritance, the position of firstborn of the human race, because of sin; but God raised up a younger Son (called in 1 Cor. 15:45 “the last Adam”) whose complete obedience to the will of his Father proved him worthy of the preeminence. He was thus elevated to the position of firstborn of the human race, which means that he receives “a double portion of the inheritance,” and that he acts as priest in the family of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is firstborn, not by fact of longevity (which confers no merit) but by virtue of his moral excellence.
His elevation was predicted in the Old Testament. God declared concerning him:
“I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).
The use of the future tense in this prophecy shows that the Lord Jesus is not firstborn by birth but by appointment; otherwise God should have said, “He IS My firstborn.”
The resurrection of Jesus was the seal of the Father's approval on the Son (Rom. 1: 1-4). This constituted him the Firstborn. Paul wrote: “He is . . . the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence” (Col 1:18), the “firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29). [The followers of the Lord are also described as a “kind of firstfruits” to God (James 1:18; Rev. 14:4), and as “the congregation of firstborns” (Heb. 12:23 – Greek. See Diaglott). Therefore, if the title “firstborn” teaches the pre-existence of Christ, it must do so also in relation to his followers. All the privileges of the firstborn that rest on the Lord, apply to a lesser extent to his followers. They will receive a double portion of inheritance in the Age to come, even immortality (1 Cor. 15:52-54), and they will act as a royal-priesthood (Rev. 5:9-10) in relation to the mortal population that will remain (see Zech. 14:16) during the period of Christ's millennial reign (Rev. 20:6).
These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed.

http://cdelph.org/jesus.html#preexist

[Jodi Lee]

Excellent post Martian, I explained this very point sometime ago, probably not as well as you just did though   !  I believe it was directed at Irene. I can't remember what response I got though. This is just another example of how understanding the culture of the Hebrews is very important, just as important in the New Testament as in the Old.

[Cindy]

Good come back Martian, I deserved that because I left myself open on that one; what I was thinking of was, you all have your heals dug in.

To whom it may concern

Jesus came in the flesh.

Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Came from where? heaven because God sent him.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Why did God sent his son into the world as a human? God loved his creation, but his creation was sinful, and the penalty for sin is death.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

Atonement for sin can only be accomplished by the shedding of blood, the death of a sacrifice; someone dying instead of the sinner.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus came to die for our sins, he was the ransom.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

What is a ransom?
1 The redeeming of a captive by payment of money or compliance with demands.
2 The price thus paid or demanded
3 To obtain the release of a captive by paying the price demanded
The price demanded by God was, death in our stead.
No human being was without sin, therefore, no human being could have died for us.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

God's son was spirit in nature, not affected by the curse of Adam, he came to ransom human nature, and in order to die for us, God had to give him a human nature.
If we believe God can change us into spirit beings, why then is it so hard to believe that God could change a spirit being into a human.
God chose for his son to be born as a baby, so that he can identify with us in all things.

Hbr 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Hbr 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus is the same one by whom God created all things.

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

If Jesus was not created by God himself, how were all the other angels created?

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

So, why is this scripture so difficult to understand?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

He was made better than the angels because God made him.

Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Begotten, brought into existence, that is why the Father calls him his son.

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Any one who does not believe that Jesus came, “HE CAME”, that means he had to come from somewhere, came in the flesh.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I didn't say that, John did.

Georg

[Lightenup]

Hello Georg and Irene,
Thank you for your faithfulness here and your humility. Your attitude so often demonstrates the fruit of the spirit. Keep it up!
Love, Kathi

[Lightenup]

Hello all,
I find this passage to be the proof of the Son actually being alive and taking an active role in the original creation which makes Him “pre-existent.”

Heb 1:8-12

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
NASU

Particularly this part:
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

The speaker is God the Father.
The Subject is “you” a pronoun referring to the Son.
The verb is “laid the foundation” and was originally written in the Greek and spelled in a way to indicate that it is the subject “you” that is actively doing the action since the verb is written in the active voice.

Therefore there is no argument about the Father creating through the Son as merely a plan/promise/purpose because then the verb would be written in the passive tense which means the subject receives the action. The active voice means that the subject does the action. The Son did the laying of the foundation.

Creation was an act of the Most High God perfoming it by the Son who actively participatied in it. The end of the book in a mystery sheds light on the beginning of the book in a mystery, not the other way around. The identity of the Son as well as His part in creation, was kept hidden in the Old Testament, then revealed in the New Testament.

LU

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 10 2009,03:51)

Hello all, I find this passage to be the proof of the Son actually being alive and taking an active role in the original creation which makes Him “pre-existent.” Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, NASU Particularly this part: “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; The speaker is God the Father. The Subject is “you” a pronoun referring to the Son. The verb is “laid the foundation” and was originally written in the Greek and spelled in a way to indicate that it is the subject “you” that is actively doing the action since the verb is written in the active voice.     Therefore there is no argument about the Father creating through the Son as merely a plan/promise/purpose because then the verb would be written in the passive tense which means the subject receives the action.  The active voice means that the subject does the action.  The Son did the laying of the foundation. Creation was an act of the Most High God perfoming it by the Son who actively participatied in it.  The end of the book in a mystery sheds light on the beginning of the book in a mystery, not the other way around.  The identity of the Son as well as His part in creation, was kept hidden in the Old Testament, then revealed in the New Testament. LU

Did Christ Create The Heavens?

Some will remind us, however, that we have not disposed of all the difficulties contained in Colossians 1. For example, does it not reveal that Christ created all things? Paul taught:

“For by him (i.e. Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him and for him” (Col. 1:16).

This seems conclusive evidence, for it appears to teach that the Lord Jesus created even heaven. But a close examination of the passage will reveal that it teaches too much if this interpretation is pressed, for it claims that he created all things “in heaven.” That would include God Himself, to say nothing of the angels!

That is obviously neither logical nor Scriptural. What, then, does the verse mean? The Scriptures speak of heavens other than those which are above. For example, the prophet Isaiah speaks of “new heavens and a new earth” to be manifested in the future, which he describes as “Jerusalem a rejoicing and her people a joy” (Isa. 65:17-18).

The coming of the Lord Jesus will result in the formation of these political heavens. The rulers who will reign therein will be followers of the Lord Jesus, then made immortal, reigning “on the earth” (Rev. 5:9-10).

Even now, a, follower of the Lord is elevated into a position of privilege in relation to God and His Son, described as “the heavens in Christ” (Eph. 1: 3 — see margin). Paul thus taught:

“He hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places (the heavens) in Christ” (Ephesians 2:6 — Margin).

These “heavens” have been brought into existence through Christ, and they are the precursors of the political “heavens” to be manifested in the age to come when he rules on earth. In them are found gradations of authority, described as thrones, dominions and so forth; some of which were visible then, and some of which are yet to be manifested, and, therefore, are as yet invisible.

All will be revealed in the Age to come.

The term “heaven,” therefore, often relates to a position of privilege or elevation. It is used to describe the present relationship of Christ's followers to the Father and the Son, as well as the authority that they will wield in the Kingdom that Christ will set up on earth in which they will exercise gradations of power (see Luke 19:17-19).

In Isaiah 65:17-18, the “heavens” constitute the rulers or government of the age to come, and the “earth” the ruled, or common people, as the prophet is careful to show (see v.18). The same interpretation is demanded for Colossians 1:16. The word in the Greek translated “by” is the preposition en. This is translated “because” in Matthew 26:33; Mark 14:27, but is more commonly rendered “in.” It signifies “in the sphere of” a person's influence or being. The R.S.V. and Revised Version translations of the Bible render Colossians 1:16 as “for in him were all things created.” It cannot be said that the material creation was created “in Christ,” and therefore the reference must be to the spiritual creation, as is further implied in v.18.

Elsewhere, a person “in Christ” is described as a “new creature,” or “new creation” as the expression should be rendered (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15), and as the “things” that Christ is said to have created are “in him” it is obviously this “new creation” that the Apostle has in mind. Christ is the beginning of this new creation of God (Rev. 3:14), leading the way to which his followers can attain (Phil. 3:21; 1 John 3:1-2), for, what he is today they can become.

To summarize, Colossians 1:16 does not teach the literal creation of the heavens and the earth by Jesus, because:

It conflicts with the testimony of the Old Testament which teaches that God created.
The heavens in question are “in Christ” which is only possible if they relate to spiritual things.
Other expressions by the Apostle align the “heavens” to positions of privilege in Christ.
So Paul concludes: “He is before (Greek – superior to) all things, and by (Greek-en, in) him all things consist” (Col. 1:17).

The Greek word translated “consist” is sunistemi and signifies to “stand, or adhere, together.” Christ is the cohesive force of the new creation, and as such these words can be understood. But if the creation in question is interpreted to mean the literal creation, we must acknowledge that Christ holds all that together. Why, then, did it not disintegrate when he died? Obviously this interpretation is wrong, and as the context clearly shows, was never intended by Paul, who was writing of a spiritual creation in Christ.

BACK

“I Am From Above” (John 8:23).

This statement is often used to teach that Jesus was in heaven before he came down to earth. The context of the verse, however, shows that this interpretation is incorrect. Jesus declared to the Jews: “Ye are from beneath: I am from above,” then, in explanation, he continued: “Ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” Christ was “from above” and “not of this world” because God was his Father, and he manifested wisdom and characteristics that were divine.

A man who “loves the world” is “from beneath,” or “earthy,” but one who has “the love of the Father” dwelling in him is “from above” (1 John 2:15). Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be “born from above” (John 3:3 — margin) if he would inherit the kingdom of God. Such a. one is begotten by the word of God (1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9-10), by a “wisdom that descendeth from above” (James 3:15-18). The character that he will develop is one molded by the Word that dwells in him (John 17:17), so that he can cla
im to be “from above” though he was never literally in heaven.

That is the sense in which Christ's words are to be understood. He was “not of this world” in the same sense as John exhorted believers to be “not of this world” (1 John 2:15). The Christ-follower is expected to look beyond the earthy things of this world to the glory yet to be revealed, and to become mentally and morally changed by the influence which is “from above.”

Christ provided an example of this.

BACK

“I Came Down From Heaven” (John 6:38).

“This is a hard saying, who can understand it?” asked the disciples (v.60). It was followed by one even more difficult: “What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before?” So ridiculous did this sound to some of Jesus' disciples that they left him (v.66). And that conclusively proves that they knew nothing of the theory of a pre-existent Christ.

Moreover, consider the title the Lord used. He described himself as “Son of Man.”

Was the pre-existent one a Son of Man? Evidently he was if this reference is relied upon as proof of his supposed pre-existence.

What did the Lord mean by these difficult sayings?

They appear at the end of a long conversation with the Jews, based upon the giving of manna in the wilderness, and the circumstances provide the key to their meaning.

The manna is described as “bread from heaven” (John 6:32), and the Lord likened himself to anti-typical manna or “bread from heaven” (vv. 32-33). Does this description mean that the manna was manufactured in heaven, at the dwelling place of God, and wafted down in a thick cloud every night through the illimitable spaces above to the wilderness below? Or did God send His spirit to earth, and there manufacture it?

Undoubtedly the latter, as any reasonable person will concede.

That is the sense, therefore, in which we must understand the Lord's allusions to himself. Consider the circumstances of his birth. The angel told his mother:

“The holy spirit shall come upon thee, the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).

Jesus was “the only begotten Son of God” and therefore from above. Paul taught that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). That which was in Christ (the Spirit) had come down from heaven, and tabernacling in the flesh of Jesus, ascended into heaven after his resurrection.

That this is the true meaning, is shown by the explanatory words of the Lord himself. To the confused disciples he declared:

“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing” (John 6:62-63).

God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin (see Ps. 80:17), and having done so, He withdrew this one to heaven, having changed his nature from a body of flesh to one of spirit, for it should be clearly understood that a spirit being is corporeal (1 Cor. 15:44-45). Thus the Spirit ascended where it was before, though in a different form. It descended as the power of God; it ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.

http://cdelph.org/jesus.html#preexist

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