Preexistence

[SEEKING]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 04 2009,17:27)

The word Christian isn't even found in the bible.

Jodi Lee,

May I make the following observation regarding your
statement:

Quote

The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. (Acts 11:26 NIV)

Quote

Acts 11:26 (KJV)  And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Quote

Darby Translation Acts.11:26 and the disciples were first calledChristians in Antioch.

Quote

And it was in Antioch that the disciples first received the name of ‘Christians – Weymouth's Translation Acts 11:26

I respect and admire your desire to be true to the word and hope you find this helpful. I understand and relate to your desire to avoid being associated with a concept and attitude that has become offensive to many.

Blessings,

Seeking

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 05 2009,13:24)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 04 2009,17:27) The word Christian isn't even found in the bible. Jodi Lee, May I make the following observation regarding your statement: Quote The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. (Acts 11:26 NIV) Quote Acts 11:26 (KJV)  And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Quote  Darby Translation Acts.11:26 and the disciples were first calledChristians in Antioch. And it was in Antioch that the disciples first received the name of ‘Christians -Wheymouth's New Testament Acts 11:26 I admire your desire to be true to the word and hope thos is helpful.  Otherwise,  I understand your desire to avoid an asocaition that, because of some attitudes, have become repulsive to many. Blessings, Seeking

Oh, thank you Seeking for that scripture, I kind of thought I should have checked to make sure.

Blessings to you too, Jodi

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 05 2009,13:18)

Jodi  I really don't owe you any explanation but I have Arthritis in my Hands and typing for a long post is very hard for me to do. And I will not do so.  Having said that I will take on thing at the time. Jon 1:1       I believe that the Word is a being that was with God from the very beginning. You do not, right? So does that make me Ant-Christ. No. Anti-Christ is the one that does not believe that Christ ever came in the flesh, and that I do not believe.  Second talking like that, I do not like. That is not like me. Sorry but you sound mean -spiritual  when you accuse me of being Anti-Christ.  And why should I tell you were you are wrong? The Word became flesh and walked among us. But the Word also before He became flesh made all. verse 3 and again in verse 10 that He was in the World and the World was made through Him. Keep in mind that this is not the Father, but rather the Word that became flesh.in verse 14. Sorry Jodi I do not know what else you want from me, I gave you my understanding, and I am not much with going on and on. That is it. Do not expect anything else from me, I had enough at my age I do not need any accusation. Good-night.

Hi Irene,

I am at a lost for words once again for being called mean spirited because my belief differs from yours, and so happens that my belief views yours as a falsehood of Christ. I tried to express to you not to take it so personally, I even said I probably have beliefs that are anti-Christ too, because I admit, I don't know everything.

I am sorry you have arthritis, that really stinks. I don't expect some big long post covering everything I post, I just wanted you to directly comment on my statements.

But once again it is clear that is a task you are unwilling to do. Why? That I'm not really sure.

With all do respect Irene, I have heard your understanding of John 1:1 several times, I don't need to hear it again.  

You don't get it, that's ok.

Wish you all the best, Jodi

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
You say
“God sends unclean spirits unto people,…”

Not my God.
The prince of this earth has dominion over what lives in natural men.

[Cindy]

Jodi! I do not believe that anybody likes to be called Anti-Christ believer, and neither do I  That is what you called me. Thank you Jodi, I should really be glad, Christ was called more then that. Trials will come. As far as me commenting on your post, what did you want me to say, that we disagree?  Sorry I really can't understand that. It is funny, if I tried to with John 1:1, you don't want to hear it. Maybe you don't understand, do you, Jodi?
So have a nice day, Irene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2009,10:08)

Hey Jodi, Which of Benner's books do you have? I have found his lexicon very usefull. I might suggest His smaller books like “The Living Words” and “His name is One”.

Besides Benner's Genesis, I do have his Lexicon, which I agree is good stuff, and my husband also got me last year “Learn to read Biblical Hebrew”, which I think he was getting a little ahead of me on that one .

I have been wanting to get “The Living Words” too. Cultural context is crucial. I have a gift certificate for amazon I think I'm going to use it for that!

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 05 2009,15:03)

Jodi! I do not believe that anybody likes to be called Anti-Christ believer, and neither do I  That is what you called me. Thank you Jodi, I should really be glad, Christ was called more then that. Trials will come. As far as me commenting on your post, what did you want me to say, that we disagree?  Sorry I really can't understand that. It is funny, if I tried to with John 1:1, you don't want to hear it. Maybe you don't understand, do you, Jodi? So have a nice day, Irene

Irene on page 471 on this thread I have three long post to you concerning John 1 and your belief, so honestly dear I don't know what in the world you are talking about. Maybe you missed them. Why don't you go back and read them.

What gets me is that you seem to have no problem addressing statements about you, so why is it so hard for you to address my statements about scripture? I can only guess that the reason is, you don't read them, or at least you cannot drag yourself to think about them long enough to remark on them, because God help you if your wrong!

I believe Martian had it right, so I am going to follow in his lead and leave you with his words, “I am not going to engage with you any longer because I believe you to be one of those that are not interested in real testing of your doctrine. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.  I think that pretty much sums it up.”

As Paul Harvey says, “Good Day!”

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 05 2009,14:29)

Hi Jodi, You say “God sends unclean spirits unto people,…” Not my God. The prince of this earth has dominion over what lives in natural men.

Nick, Deuteronomy 28 shows God throwing unclean spirits around all over the place!

Just what in the world do you think an unclean spirit is, some spookey spirit that had played in the dirt then hid under your bed until you were asleep then jumped into you?

Talk about believing in magic and superstitions Nick. I view unclean spirits on more of a molecular level.

[Cindy]

Jodi! One of these days we will all know what the whole Truth is, until then, I stay with Jesus. I read all of your articles, and you want me to respond to 4 long posts? no thank you. It would not matter anyway, you would believe what you want to anyway. That my friend you have proven, with all of your post to me and others. I am not impressed with long dragged out posts. And I already have said Good-bye to you.

[martian]

Jodi,
This is my take on John 1 —
There is no linguistic reason to interpret Logos in John 1 as Jesus. No literature of the time uses logos in that way or to denote a personage of any kind. In over 350 times logos is used in scripture it is only defined (by some) Jesus 6 or 8 times. The overwhelming evidence in both Greek literature of the time and the overwhelming evidence in scripture itself points to a definition as statement speech or idea.
There are sources that will attempt to validate a definition of Jesus but it is not based on sound linguistic evidence. It is based more on tradition then real evidence. Much like they attempt to justify the Trinity.
I admit that John 1 can be difficult to understand, but that is more due to our lack of thinking as the Hebrews did and not as the current Western cultures look at things. Even though John wrote in Greek he still thought and perceived his world and his God from a purely Hebrew way. John and the others had the unenviable task of expressing Hebrew concepts and understandings to a Greek thinking world. As I have posted many many times the Hebrews did not see God as “He is …………..” the saw God as “He functions as ……..”
Moses bowed down before the burning bush and turned away because He was afraid to look at God. The bush (and the angel of the Lord in it) functioned as God to Moses and Moses reacted to it as if it were God Himself. To him it was God. This expression of God WAS God to Moses.
Psalms 82 YHWH rebukes the leaders of Israel for not being Gods to the people. Jesus quotes these scriptures in John 10 to rebuke the Pharisees for not being Gods to the people. Did YHWH and Jesus expect them to be literal Gods? Of course not! They did expect them to function as Gods to the people and to relate to them as God would.
This also ties in to the personal way in which the Hebrews saw things. The Hebrews did not understand an object (or person) by comparing it to itself but rather by comparing it to the Hebrew himself. We might say “God is love” A Hebrew would say ” God loves me”. It was viewed personally. In fact there is no word for “is” in the Hebrew language. The closest one could get is “functions as” or “relates to me as”. In our modern English language one could also say be like God, in the form of God, expressed image of God, represent God ect. Any of these sound failure? Now we may not be any of these things in a perfect manner, but there was one man who was. He opened the door and made a way for us to be continually developing that perfection in ourselves. With the wind/breath/spirit of God blowing on us we are transformed from glory to glory.
Back to John 1 —
“In the beginning was the Logos”
In the beginning was a concept/idea.
“And the Logos was with God”
and the idea reflected as in a mirror God
“And the logos was God”
This idea expressed who God was and how He wanted to relate to and function toward His children. (Again Hebrew parallelism saying the same thing in two or more ways.)
“This was in beginning toward God” (actual Greek)
From the beginning this idea/expression was a mirror toward God reflecting who God was.
“All things come into being through him and apart from him nothings came into being that has come into being.” (actual Greek).
God created all things and nothing has existence outside of God.
“In Him was life and the life was the light of men”.
God is the source of Light and life.
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

All the previous verse are talking about God and not about Jesus. The next verses begin to speak of Jesus.

14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
God’s idea came to fruition. 1 Peter 1:20?For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'”
The Greek does not use the word “existed” it says Jesus is before John, but in preeminence. Jesus being the forerunner and firstborn. Verse 16 and 17 explain why Jesus is preeminent over John.
16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Again Jesus is related to and spoken of as God because of the way He functioned. He fully represented and expressed God.

I appreciate that it is hard to think in the Hebrew way, but it is imperative that we do so in order to understand scripture from within the culture it was written.

[meerkat]

Martian,

I know you were speaking to Jodi …… but thank you very much for that explanation ……I had thought that some of the first part of the John 1 passage was talking about God (I thought the break happened between 5 and 6) – when it says that God came into the world, and to his own, but they did not know him is that speaking of him giving the old covenant to the Israel and about them not following him, but rebelling?

A feel sometimes one of the problems with the translations we have is the tenses can be wrong.

I appreciate this website a lot, I am challenged to think, read and understand scripture – and you are so right understanding how the hebrews thought and expressed themselves and the context is critical to understanding the scriptures.

[martian]

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 06 2009,06:31)

Martian, I know you were speaking to Jodi …… but thank you very much for that explanation ……I had thought that some of the first part of the John 1 passage was talking about God (I thought the break happened between 5 and 6) – when it says that God came into the world, and to his own, but they did not know him is that speaking of him giving the old covenant to the Israel and about them not following him, but rebelling?   A feel sometimes one of the problems with the translations we have is the tenses can be wrong. I appreciate this website a lot, I am challenged to think, read and understand scripture  – and you are so right understanding how the hebrews thought and expressed themselves and the context is critical to understanding the scriptures.

There are everal placs where God came unto the Hebrew people and they did not konw him. HYe functioned through the prophets and they killed them. Jesus even points this out to the people of his time. It could alsp be applied to the Hebrews that rebelled agains Moses when he brought the law. Both are accurate.

[Jodi Lee]

Thanks Martian for your time on that post on John 1, I too had a hard time seeing where the verses began with Jesus.

Very clear now.

I can honestly say in my few years of studying I never read John 1:1 and thought that the word represented another being. I saw the word, well, as His word, having power and glory, and once spoken it became living, causing something with a definitive purpose and bringing forth truth.

[Cindy]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 06 2009,04:06)

“In the beginning was the Logos” In the beginning was a concept/idea. “And the Logos was with God” and the idea reflected as in a mirror God “And the logos was God” 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. God’s idea came to fruition.

Martian

How would you explain the following scripture?

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Is Jesus asking his Father to become an idea, or thought again?

Georg

[martian]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 06 2009,11:27)

Quote (martian @ Feb. 06 2009,04:06) “In the beginning was the Logos” In the beginning was a concept/idea. “And the Logos was with God” and the idea reflected as in a mirror God “And the logos was God” 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. God’s idea came to fruition. Martian How would you explain the following scripture? Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Is Jesus asking his Father to become an idea, or thought again? Georg

Before my Grandfather died, He set aside monies to be given to his grandchildren. An inheritance if you will. This was done long before I was born. The money was to be given to us when we graduated High School.
If I could speak to my grandfather on the other side, I could have said (upon my graduation) now give me the money I had with you previously.
The context is about glory, not about Jesus.. The messiah had glory set aside and a position of all authority as the firstborn. This is Jesus’ finale prayer (with the disciples) before his crucifixion. He is speaking of future events not something that happened long before.

1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11″I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12″While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

[Jodi Lee]

I would like to verify to all why I come to this forum, it is not about trying to get someone to believe what I believe, as some fail to understand. What I am looking for is the truth. When debating with someone I am looking for what makes the best sense given all of scripture. I have been accused of being the type that does not change their mind, that is an absurd assumption. I am hoping that in debating with someone I will be challenged….. will I be able to confirm my belief all the more… will my belief change to that of my debaters…will my belief change into a new understanding all together? I am open to all the possibilities what is important is that I feel that I am further honing in on the truth. Does my understanding hold up and make sense to others, or can others show me how it is in error and give me something that makes better sense? That is what I am looking for.

When I started this forum I did not believe in Universal Salvation, I had studied it and denied it once previously, but now I believe in it. When I started this forum I didn't even know what the arguments or scriptures were on the topic pre-existence. I certainly as well thought that Satan was a fallen angel named Lucifer, but have since changed my mind about that also. Given a sound argument with great scriptures to back them up, could I change my mind once again, certainly. Like I said, my mission is honing in on the truth.

I argue from the foundation of what makes sense in my mind, NOT from thinking I have more of God's Spirit then someone else.

[Jodi Lee]

I have already given recently the scriptures from the Old Testament showing that it was YHWH who created the heavens and the earth.

The New Testament confirms with the Old, why wouldn’t it?

Mark 13:19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

Ro 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.

Ephesians 3:8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Colossians 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created

1Ti 4:3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

1Ti 4:4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

Rev 4:11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

Mr 10:6“But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'

Acts 4:24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: “'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 26 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against his Anointed One.'

Not only does this verse claim God made heaven and earth, as does really the entire bible, but it also confirms with Hebrews 1, that God spoke to us through David by His Spirit. A pre-existent spirit son speaking as God’s word to the people in the OT does not exist, but rather creates a LIE!

Re 14:7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
————————————

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

This is what I really don’t get because I believe this scripture is very clear in telling us that the Son is not at all from a pre-existed form known as the word of God, but came after the word was spoken to the prophets through God. The Son is clearly identified as coming AFTER the prophets, not existing before the prophets. The Son is clearly identified NOT as a pre-existent spirit, but the MAN who purified our sins. The Son that is the radiance of God’s glory and the very image of His substance is all stated here as according to the man that purified our sins. Nowhere in scripture do we find the idea that it was a spirit-son that was the image of God, every time it is referring to the righteous MAN. Let’s also notice here that we see it being said that God spoke to us through Jesus, making Jesus not the word but the speaker of God’s word. Jesus is shown not to be the word, but God’s mediator of His word.  

4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

There is NOT a SINGLE scripture that tells us that God begot a pre-existing son. There is no scriptural support for the belief that God had a special son before Jesus that then later became Jesus. A spirit-son did not become so much better than the angels, but a man became better. The Son that was begotten by God is strictly referred to as a human being.  

Ps 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

Mr 1:11Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Lu 3:22And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Ac 13:33God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'

Heb 1:5For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

Hebrews 5:5 specifically tells us that it is Jesus the MAN who was begotten by God. A pre-existent son that was begotten by God does not exist in scripture.  

Hebrews 1:6 When he again brings in the firstborn into the world he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him.”

In ALL instances of Jesus being referred to as the firstborn it strictly represents that he is the firstborn of the dead.

Ro 8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Heb 1:6But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Re 1:5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

God’s only begotten son is identified as the human being Jesus. The first human being God created was not Jesus, but Adam. We are NEVER told that Jesus was firstborn from the beginning when God created (fattened) the heavens and the earth, AND firstborn from the dead of the New Creation. We are specifically told however that Jesus is firstborn of the dead, and every time we see firstborn used in reference to Jesus, it always fits with ‘of the dead’.

[Jodi Lee]

I hope others on this forum do not view scripture or interpret it like Irene does as shown here in the following quote, for I see it containing major error, and I believe we can all learn from this that it is not how we ought to view the scriptures…

Irene had said to Martian, “Martin!  All what you are posting is concerned about what will or did happen during the Period before Christ became a man and after. You are explaining all of God in the old Testament and some in the New. What you do forget that we are under diffrent Covenants. God has made several Covenants with His people. Just because there are some Scriptures that are hard to understand and what David meant for instant, or Jeremiah, but those are all books out of the old Covenant and have passed away, and the New Covenant is in effect now.”

A change in covenant in the New Testament DOES NOT make the history and it’s contextual importance of the Old Testament pass away.

Because there is a new covenant does not mean that because the Old Testament said that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, that fact has now passed away and is no longer true. Because there is a new covenant that does not mean that because YHWH new of a person’s life and how it would play out before that person was even born, that YHWH can no longer do that or that He never really could.

There is absolutely no evidence in the OT IMO that there was another being that created the heaven and earth, it is rather clear that it was YHWH. When we read the New Testament, we should continue to keep that fact in mind. A change in covenant does not change history and the way it unfolded! Books and the truth contained in them do not pass away!

We can all agree that God had a plan in the beginning. 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5 specifically tell us that the plan was for a man to be righteous, pay for the world’s sins and bring immortality. There is NO mention of the glory of Jesus being under some sort of pre-existent form, or having glory because he chose to become a human to save us. The glory of which we all know, is in Jesus the human, who gives us life. This glory was in the beginning with God, for this was His plan.

John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

In the beginning God had a plan that would bring man into righteousness and eternal life. We are told that as one man brought sin and death another MAN would wash sins away and bring life. I refuse to ADD to this plan. The glory in the beginning was of the man to come, not in the spirit son that would morph and become flesh.

Sorry for being a little repetitive

[meerkat]

Jodi

Amen to both of your posts ……. I too find there is so much to learn and there is a lot of false ideas mixed in with the truth …….

with Hebrews 1:1 when people see the phrase “through whom he made the worlds” taken out of context that God is making the new creation in, through and for Christ and all has been for that purpose, that seems to mean that God used Jesus also to make the original creation with God.

Also just noticed that the world translated as worlds is “aion” so it is not referring to the creation of the physical heavens and earth, it has to do with the ages.

[martian]

You might add this one to your lists — Isa 44
24Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,?
“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,?
Stretching out the heavens by Myself?
And spreading out the earth all alone,

interesting point by YHWH. He says He created everything alone. Leaves that pre-existent Christ out does it not?
It is also interesting that Isa is used to prove a pre-existence and yet this portion of scriptur is filled with verse that YHWH is God and there is no other Gods beside him.

[Author]

Posts