Preexistence

[david]

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 02 2008,16:32)

You are wrong in estimating me Sis Kathi. I never twisted your post but countered it. Pleease take care Adam

Hi Golli.

You “countered” it by ignoring the actual agrument, and then simply stating what you believe.
Could you address the actual argument?

[david]

Quote

Hi Sis Kathi, The very purpose of our Messiah is to be born as human and die on the cross once for all for the redemption of our sins. This does not require any preexistent being at all. He has to be a human like the first man Adam who chose to disobey God but our Lord and Messiah Jesus chose to obey God and gave himself as a living sacrifice for all the mankind. I don't see any preexistence here to fulfill the scriptures you quoted above. Please see the greatness of our heavenly Father God who has given authority to men to be called as sons and daughters of God including our Lord Jesus. Jesus was a man and remains to be a man-mediator between One God and men in this universe(1 Tim 2:5). He is not another God or begotten God as you and others often claim. If he is our God he can not be our example because we are human beings.

golli, you are right in several things in this post. But, instead of addressing the actual scripture in question, the closest you come to it is to say: “I don't see any preexistence here to fulfill the scriptures you quoted above.”

Heb 9:24-28
Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASU

For a certainty, the “founding of the world” wherever you time it, was way before the birth of Jesus.
In saying “He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world” we understand that a “he” had to exist from the founding of the world, or this whole idea would have been bizarre.

Quote

He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world. He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense.

Golli, you say many things, but none of them touch upon the verse in question. Why?

[david]

Quote

Hmmm, yes, this is a good point. I'm going to look at various translations and see if it's worded any other way as to give another view? Thanks for this, Kathi. Love, Mandy

And if it isn't, what will that mean, Mandy?

[gollamudi]

Quote (david @ Oct. 06 2008,18:18)

Quote Hi Sis Kathi, The very purpose of our Messiah is to be born as human and die on the cross once for all for the redemption of our sins. This does not require any preexistent being at all. He has to be a human like the first man Adam who chose to disobey God but our Lord and Messiah Jesus chose to obey God and gave himself as a living sacrifice for all the mankind. I don't see any preexistence here to fulfill the scriptures you quoted above. Please see the greatness of our heavenly Father God who has given authority to men to be called as sons and daughters of God including our Lord Jesus. Jesus was a man and remains to be a man-mediator between One God and men in this universe(1 Tim 2:5). He is not another God or begotten God as you and others often claim. If he is our God he can not be our example because we are human beings. golli, you are right in several things in this post.  But, instead of addressing the actual scripture in question, the closest you come to it is to say: “I don't see any preexistence here to fulfill the scriptures you quoted above.” Heb 9:24-28 Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. NASU For a certainty, the “founding of the world” wherever you time it, was way before the birth of Jesus. In saying “He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world” we understand that a “he” had to exist from the founding of the world, or this whole idea would have been bizarre.   Quote He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world.  He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense. Golli, you say many things, but none of them touch upon the verse in question.  Why?

Hi brother David,
Thanks for your response to my post to LU. I know you people are oriented towards the great Arianism which believes Henotheism.

Please show where is it written that Jesus has to exist from the foundations of the world to be the sacrificial Lamb and High priest ?

Don't you read Jesus has been revealed when the fullness of times had come as per Paul's words in Gal 4:4. Infact he was revealed only by the birth as a man through a woman. You people are ignoring such words which say Jesus' existence through normal conception which means his genesis or origin at his birth. The verse you quoted in Hebrews nowhere it infers any preexistence requirement. It is because of sin Jesus the High priest has to offer his precious blood once for all. Jesus has to offer this sacrifice after the first man's sin and not before that. He is the second Adam (man) after the first Adam as per Paul's words in 1 Cor15:47. God is the sole predestainer of all activities of Jesus He foresaw every thing in His plan right from the foundations of the world. He fixed a time frame for Jesus coming into existence at 2000 years ago. Don't you know Jesus was a man like you and me and he remains to be man even in his glorified status ?

Please take care
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
You say
“Thanks for your response to my post to LU. I know you people are oriented towards the great Arianism which believes Henotheism. “

Why do you need labels to judge people by?

[david]

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 06 2008,22:01)

Quote (david @ Oct. 06 2008,18:18) Quote Hi Sis Kathi, The very purpose of our Messiah is to be born as human and die on the cross once for all for the redemption of our sins. This does not require any preexistent being at all. He has to be a human like the first man Adam who chose to disobey God but our Lord and Messiah Jesus chose to obey God and gave himself as a living sacrifice for all the mankind. I don't see any preexistence here to fulfill the scriptures you quoted above. Please see the greatness of our heavenly Father God who has given authority to men to be called as sons and daughters of God including our Lord Jesus. Jesus was a man and remains to be a man-mediator between One God and men in this universe(1 Tim 2:5). He is not another God or begotten God as you and others often claim. If he is our God he can not be our example because we are human beings. golli, you are right in several things in this post.  But, instead of addressing the actual scripture in question, the closest you come to it is to say: “I don't see any preexistence here to fulfill the scriptures you quoted above.” Heb 9:24-28 Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. NASU For a certainty, the “founding of the world” wherever you time it, was way before the birth of Jesus. In saying “He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world” we understand that a “he” had to exist from the founding of the world, or this whole idea would have been bizarre.   Quote He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world.  He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense. Golli, you say many things, but none of them touch upon the verse in question.  Why? Hi brother David, Thanks for your response to my post to LU. I know you people are oriented towards the great Arianism which believes Henotheism. Please show where is it written that Jesus has to exist from the foundations of the world to be the sacrificial Lamb and High priest ? Don't you read Jesus has been revealed when the fullness of times had come as per Paul's words in Gal 4:4. Infact he was revealed only by the birth as a man through a woman. You people are ignoring such words which say Jesus' existence through normal conception which means his genesis or origin at his birth. The verse you quoted in Hebrews nowhere it infers any preexistence requirement. It is because of sin Jesus the High priest has to offer his precious blood once for all. Jesus has to offer this sacrifice after the first man's sin and not before that. He is the second Adam (man) after the first Adam as per Paul's words in 1 Cor15:47. God is the sole predestainer of all activities of Jesus He foresaw every thing in His plan right from the foundations of the world. He fixed a time frame for Jesus coming into existence at 2000 years ago. Don't you know Jesus was a man like you and me and he remains to be man even in his glorified status ? Please take care Adam

once again:

Golli, you say many things, but none of them touch upon the verse in question. Why?

[Tiffany]

Yes, David and those Scriptures that I find so clear to indicate that Jesus preexisted His birth as a Man.
Adam answer
Rev. 3:14
Col. 1:15-16-17
what do they mean to you, explain them to me.
Irene

[Proclaimer]

Yeah gollamudi, an answer on that particular verse would be helpful in explaining why you believe and teach that Yeshua had no previous existence before coming in the flesh.

If you can't answer it, then perhaps an honest acknowledgment that this is a difficult verse for your theology.

[gollamudi]

Quote (david @ Oct. 07 2008,12:47)

[/quote] Hi brother David, Thanks for your response to my post to LU. I know you people are oriented towards the great Arianism which believes Henotheism. Please show where is it written that Jesus has to exist from the foundations of the world to be the sacrificial Lamb and High priest ? Don't you read Jesus has been revealed when the fullness of times had come as per Paul's words in Gal 4:4. Infact he was revealed only by the birth as a man through a woman. You people are ignoring such words which say Jesus' existence through normal conception which means his genesis or origin at his birth. The verse you quoted in Hebrews nowhere it infers any preexistence requirement. It is because of sin Jesus the High priest has to offer his precious blood once for all. Jesus has to offer this sacrifice after the first man's sin and not before that. He is the second Adam (man) after the first Adam as per Paul's words in 1 Cor15:47. God is the sole predestainer of all activities of Jesus He foresaw every thing in His plan right from the foundations of the world. He fixed a time frame for Jesus coming into existence at 2000 years ago. Don't you know Jesus was a man like you and me and he remains to be man even in his glorified status ? Please take care Adam

Hi brother David,

once again: You say

“Golli, you say many things, but none of them touch upon the verse in question.  Why? “

So you choose to ignore what I have quoted above. Infact my sayings interpret the same verses you quoted from Hebrews. Jesus the high priest has been destined to come into existence at the consummation of times not just as imagined preexistent being as you all believe. Know for sure that he is the second Adam(man) who came to become as the sacrificial lamb of God. If you want I can interpret the passage in Hebrews verse by verse. Here it goes;
Heb 9:23-28

“(23) It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.”

My interpretation: I think this verse is simple to understand in a way to say that Jesus' sacrifice is superior to animal sacrifice which was being carried out by the priests of Israel during the 1 & 2 Temple period.

“(24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR in the presence of God for us”

My interpretation: I hope this verse also not difficult to understand and requires no preexistence of Jesus because he is appearing for the first time before throne of God with his own blood.

“(25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;”

My interpretation: Here he is compared with any Human high priest who enters the holy place of the Temple. Christ did it for the first and the last time once for all. No ambiguity here I hope.

“(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age, r.m.) hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

My interpretation: Yes if his sacrifice was temporary like that of animals and birds he had to come into existence from the very foundations of the world and suffer many times for every year and offer his blood every time. But the miracle here is that he need not exist from the foundations of the world and offer himself many times as the author of Hebrews rightly told. Since God had fixed a time frame for Jesus to come into existence and offer his blood once for all for the sins of all the mankind right from the first man Adam. I wonder where you peole are visualizing this requirement of preexistence at all. Infact the author of Hebrews negates such requirement since Jesus had to offer this sacrifice only once at the fixed time set by God.

“(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he APPEAR the second time without sin unto salvation.”

My interpretation:These verses clarify that Jesus appeared only once in this universe so far and he is going to appear second time to save those who are redeemed by his blood from the judgment.

I hope this will clear all the doubts of T8 and others also.

Peace to all
Adam

[Tiffany]

yOU DID NOT ANSWER MY SCRIPTURES AT ALL To me it tells of a preexsisting Son of God.
AGAIN

Rev. 3:14

Col. 1:15-16-17
explain to me how you see these?
Adam you have never answered these question and this time I will let all know, that you do not answer question, and only say what you want to.
That is not right. Please explain them to me.

Irene

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 07 2008,10:21)

“(24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR in the presence of God for us” My interpretation: I hope this verse also not difficult to understand and requires no preexistence of Jesus because he is appearing for the first time before throne of God with his own blood. “(25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;” My interpretation: Here he is compared with any Human high priest who enters the holy place of the Temple. Christ did it for the first and the last time once for all. No ambiguity here I hope. “(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age, r.m.) hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” My interpretation: Yes if his sacrifice was temporary like that of animals and birds he had to come into existence from the very foundations of the world and suffer many times for every year and offer his blood every time. But the miracle here is that he need not exist from the foundations of the world and offer himself many times as the author of Hebrews rightly told. Since God had fixed a time frame for Jesus to come into existence and offer his blood once for all for the sins of all the mankind right from the first man Adam.

Excellent Adam … absolutely excellent!!

Heb 9.26 as you so rightly pointed out, simply means;
If Jesus had not a better offering to present i.e. “himself”; then indeed he would have had to suffer for every sin  from the timing of mankind's first sin
i.e.  from the foundation of the world.

But praise be to GOD! Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world.

Therefore, according to GOD Almighty's purpose & timing, GOD sent His Son to be a sacrifice & propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [1 John 2.2]

You see, Adam; I couldn't explain it any better than you!

You clearly bring out the sense of these verses;
Christ needed only to appear once and be offered once as a sacrifice for sins.

Thanks again Adam, for your clear explanation.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 08 2008,10:50)

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 07 2008,10:21) “(24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR in the presence of God for us” My interpretation: I hope this verse also not difficult to understand and requires no preexistence of Jesus because he is appearing for the first time before throne of God with his own blood. “(25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;” My interpretation: Here he is compared with any Human high priest who enters the holy place of the Temple. Christ did it for the first and the last time once for all. No ambiguity here I hope. “(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age, r.m.) hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” My interpretation: Yes if his sacrifice was temporary like that of animals and birds he had to come into existence from the very foundations of the world and suffer many times for every year and offer his blood every time. But the miracle here is that he need not exist from the foundations of the world and offer himself many times as the author of Hebrews rightly told. Since God had fixed a time frame for Jesus to come into existence and offer his blood once for all for the sins of all the mankind right from the first man Adam. Excellent Adam … absolutely excellent!! Heb 9.26 as you so rightly pointed out, simply means; If Jesus had not a better offering to present i.e. “himself”; then indeed he would have had to suffer for every sin  from the timing of mankind's first sin i.e.  from the foundation of the world. But praise be to GOD! Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world. Therefore, according to GOD Almighty's purpose & timing, GOD sent His Son to be a sacrifice & propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [1 John 2.2] You see, Adam; I couldn't explain it any better than you! You clearly bring out the sense of these verses; Christ needed only to appear once and be offered once as a sacrifice for sins. Thanks again Adam, for your clear explanation.

Good stuff, guys.

Thank you!
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 07 2008,21:50)

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 08 2008,10:50) Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 07 2008,10:21) “(24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR in the presence of God for us” My interpretation: I hope this verse also not difficult to understand and requires no preexistence of Jesus because he is appearing for the first time before throne of God with his own blood. “(25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;” My interpretation: Here he is compared with any Human high priest who enters the holy place of the Temple. Christ did it for the first and the last time once for all. No ambiguity here I hope. “(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age, r.m.) hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” My interpretation: Yes if his sacrifice was temporary like that of animals and birds he had to come into existence from the very foundations of the world and suffer many times for every year and offer his blood every time. But the miracle here is that he need not exist from the foundations of the world and offer himself many times as the author of Hebrews rightly told. Since God had fixed a time frame for Jesus to come into existence and offer his blood once for all for the sins of all the mankind right from the first man Adam. Excellent Adam … absolutely excellent!! Heb 9.26 as you so rightly pointed out, simply means; If Jesus had not a better offering to present i.e. “himself”; then indeed he would have had to suffer for every sin  from the timing of mankind's first sin i.e.  from the foundation of the world. But praise be to GOD! Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world. Therefore, according to GOD Almighty's purpose & timing, GOD sent His Son to be a sacrifice & propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [1 John 2.2] You see, Adam; I couldn't explain it any better than you! You clearly bring out the sense of these verses; Christ needed only to appear once and be offered once as a sacrifice for sins. Thanks again Adam, for your clear explanation. Good stuff, guys. Thank you! Mandy

Hi Golla, AP, Mandy,
I think that we all agree that Christ's one time sacrifice was all that was needed. No one is contending that.

What I was pointing out is that if Christ was just a man, He could only have shed his blood once for it is appointed for a man once to die. Why did the writer even suggest that He could shed blood and die over and over and over since the foundation of the world if He was just a man? It might have said that there would have been a need for a third Adam, a fourth Adam, a fifth Adam etc. but not the same person if that person was merely a man. Get my point?

So, I believe He was much more than a man like us.

LU

[gollamudi]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 08 2008,10:50)

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 07 2008,10:21) “(24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR in the presence of God for us” My interpretation: I hope this verse also not difficult to understand and requires no preexistence of Jesus because he is appearing for the first time before throne of God with his own blood. “(25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;” My interpretation: Here he is compared with any Human high priest who enters the holy place of the Temple. Christ did it for the first and the last time once for all. No ambiguity here I hope. “(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age, r.m.) hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” My interpretation: Yes if his sacrifice was temporary like that of animals and birds he had to come into existence from the very foundations of the world and suffer many times for every year and offer his blood every time. But the miracle here is that he need not exist from the foundations of the world and offer himself many times as the author of Hebrews rightly told. Since God had fixed a time frame for Jesus to come into existence and offer his blood once for all for the sins of all the mankind right from the first man Adam. Excellent Adam … absolutely excellent!! Heb 9.26 as you so rightly pointed out, simply means; If Jesus had not a better offering to present i.e. “himself”; then indeed he would have had to suffer for every sin  from the timing of mankind's first sin i.e.  from the foundation of the world. But praise be to GOD! Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world. Therefore, according to GOD Almighty's purpose & timing, GOD sent His Son to be a sacrifice & propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [1 John 2.2] You see, Adam; I couldn't explain it any better than you! You clearly bring out the sense of these verses; Christ needed only to appear once and be offered once as a sacrifice for sins. Thanks again Adam, for your clear explanation.

Hi brother Adam,
I thank you for that appreciation of my post. Infact You are my source of encouragement in knowing God and Jesus in this forum since beginning along with brother Gene and Sis Mandy.Your site “Adoni Messiah” is also my favourite site in knowing the “Real Christ” of the Bible.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 08 2008,01:02)

yOU DID NOT ANSWER MY SCRIPTURES AT ALL To me it tells of a preexsisting Son of God. AGAIN Rev. 3:14 Col. 1:15-16-17 explain to me how you see these? Adam you have never answered these question and this time I will let all know, that you do not answer question, and only say what you want to. That is not right. Please explain them to me. Irene

I'm sorry Sis Irene,
For choosing not to interpret those verses you quoted. Infact I was concentrating on the posts of Sis LU and bro David. Certainly I will reply your post in due time. But let us not deviate from this debate on Heb 9:23-28 for time being. You are free to interpret this passage the way you understand. It may be helpful to all.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[Tiffany]

Adam deviate from the debate in Hebrew 9:23-28 excuses. excuses. i do not interpret Scriptures, I take them like they are written. Straight out of the Bible. You get into trouble when you interprete to fit you.
Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 08 2008,15:40)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 07 2008,21:50) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 08 2008,10:50) Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 07 2008,10:21) “(24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR in the presence of God for us” My interpretation: I hope this verse also not difficult to understand and requires no preexistence of Jesus because he is appearing for the first time before throne of God with his own blood. “(25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;” My interpretation: Here he is compared with any Human high priest who enters the holy place of the Temple. Christ did it for the first and the last time once for all. No ambiguity here I hope. “(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age, r.m.) hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” My interpretation: Yes if his sacrifice was temporary like that of animals and birds he had to come into existence from the very foundations of the world and suffer many times for every year and offer his blood every time. But the miracle here is that he need not exist from the foundations of the world and offer himself many times as the author of Hebrews rightly told. Since God had fixed a time frame for Jesus to come into existence and offer his blood once for all for the sins of all the mankind right from the first man Adam. Excellent Adam … absolutely excellent!! Heb 9.26 as you so rightly pointed out, simply means; If Jesus had not a better offering to present i.e. “himself”; then indeed he would have had to suffer for every sin  from the timing of mankind's first sin i.e.  from the foundation of the world. But praise be to GOD! Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world. Therefore, according to GOD Almighty's purpose & timing, GOD sent His Son to be a sacrifice & propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [1 John 2.2] You see, Adam; I couldn't explain it any better than you! You clearly bring out the sense of these verses; Christ needed only to appear once and be offered once as a sacrifice for sins. Thanks again Adam, for your clear explanation. Good stuff, guys. Thank you! Mandy Hi Golla, AP, Mandy, I think that we all agree that Christ's one time sacrifice was all that was needed.  No one is contending that. What I was pointing out is that if Christ was just a man, He could only have shed his blood once for it is appointed for a man once to die.  Why did the writer even suggest that He could shed blood and die over and over and over since the foundation of the world if He was just a man?  It might have said that there would have been a need for a third Adam, a fourth Adam, a fifth Adam etc. but not the same person if that person was merely a man.  Get my point? So, I believe He was much more than a man like us. LU

Hi Kathi,

My take – for what it is worth:

Christ was presented once.  Once in time and space.  He was announced by the angel to Mary and then conceived of God's holy Spirit.  He was born.  He lived.  He died.  The debt was satisfied once and for all.

Because of who and what he was…there was no need for him to be presented more than once.

Hebrews is saying that if he was not the perfect high priest, he would have had to keep presenting himself over and over again since the beginning of time for everyone!

If this were true and he did need to present himself since the foundations…..God would have presented him earlier (i.e., perhaps Eve would have bore the Son of God).  But as such, there was no need.  God's timing was perfect.

Saying that Jesus preexisted simply because of an interpretation of this scripture is not solid.  It's a guess based on an interpretation, but it is not clear evidence in my opinion.

Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Another thought – “…since the foundation….” could be a figure of speech as well? Haven't you ever heard someone say, “Well it's been done this way since the beginning of time!” Has it really been done like that from eternity to now OR were they just trying to figuratively point out it's been a LONG time?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 09 2008,06:50)

Lightenup,Oct. wrote: [quote=Not3in1,Oct. 07 2008,21:50] Hi Kathi, My take – for what it is worth: Christ was presented once.  Once in time and space.  He was announced by the angel to Mary and then conceived of God's holy Spirit.  He was born.  He lived.  He died.  The debt was satisfied once and for all. Because of who and what he was…there was no need for him to be presented more than once. Hebrews is saying that if he was not the perfect high priest, he would have had to keep presenting himself over and over again since the beginning of time for everyone! If this were true and he did need to present himself since the foundations…..God would have presented him earlier (i.e., perhaps Eve would have bore the Son of God).  But as such, there was no need.  God's timing was perfect. Saying that Jesus preexisted simply because of an interpretation of this scripture is not solid.  It's a guess based on an interpretation, but it is not clear evidence in my opinion. Thanks, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
Thanks for your helping hand in replying our Sis Kathi. Since Jesus was and is a man (even in his glorified status) could die only once. That is the logic behind arguing that there can not be any preexistence for him prior to his birth on this earth like the first Adam. You have rightly told that God had timed his birth and death perfectly at the fullness of times, 2000 years ago. Infact some Biblical scholars say that this timing is know as the Meridian of times(center point of times). Assumption of any preexistence creates the origin of Jesus as mystery and a myth like any Pagan origin. No Jew accepts this logic of preexistence. I read many articles on Judaism, all of them negate the interpretation of Jesus being God or Godly being. Their Messiah has to be a human born from the tribe of Judah. He should be a prophet like Moses as foretold in Deut 18:18.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 08 2008,14:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 08 2008,15:40) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 07 2008,21:50) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 08 2008,10:50) Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 07 2008,10:21) “(24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR in the presence of God for us” My interpretation: I hope this verse also not difficult to understand and requires no preexistence of Jesus because he is appearing for the first time before throne of God with his own blood. “(25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;” My interpretation: Here he is compared with any Human high priest who enters the holy place of the Temple. Christ did it for the first and the last time once for all. No ambiguity here I hope. “(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age, r.m.) hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” My interpretation: Yes if his sacrifice was temporary like that of animals and birds he had to come into existence from the very foundations of the world and suffer many times for every year and offer his blood every time. But the miracle here is that he need not exist from the foundations of the world and offer himself many times as the author of Hebrews rightly told. Since God had fixed a time frame for Jesus to come into existence and offer his blood once for all for the sins of all the mankind right from the first man Adam. Excellent Adam … absolutely excellent!! Heb 9.26 as you so rightly pointed out, simply means; If Jesus had not a better offering to present i.e. “himself”; then indeed he would have had to suffer for every sin  from the timing of mankind's first sin i.e.  from the foundation of the world. But praise be to GOD! Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the sins of the whole world. Therefore, according to GOD Almighty's purpose & timing, GOD sent His Son to be a sacrifice & propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [1 John 2.2] You see, Adam; I couldn't explain it any better than you! You clearly bring out the sense of these verses; Christ needed only to appear once and be offered once as a sacrifice for sins. Thanks again Adam, for your clear explanation. Good stuff, guys. Thank you! Mandy Hi Golla, AP, Mandy, I think that we all agree that Christ's one time sacrifice was all that was needed.  No one is contending that. What I was pointing out is that if Christ was just a man, He could only have shed his blood once for it is appointed for a man once to die.  Why did the writer even suggest that He could shed blood and die over and over and over since the foundation of the world if He was just a man?  It might have said that there would have been a need for a third Adam, a fourth Adam, a fifth Adam etc. but not the same person if that person was merely a man.  Get my point? So, I believe He was much more than a man like us. LU Hi Kathi, My take – for what it is worth: Christ was presented once.  Once in time and space.  He was announced by the angel to Mary and then conceived of God's holy Spirit.  He was born.  He lived.  He died.  The debt was satisfied once and for all. Because of who and what he was…there was no need for him to be presented more than once. Hebrews is saying that if he was not the perfect high priest, he would have had to keep presenting himself over and over again since the beginning of time for everyone! If this were true and he did need to present himself since the foundations…..God would have presented him earlier (i.e., perhaps Eve would have bore the Son of God).  But as such, there was no need.  God's timing was perfect. Saying that Jesus preexisted simply because of an interpretation of this scripture is not solid.  It's a guess based on an interpretation, but it is not clear evidence in my opinion. Thanks, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
Yes, Jesus Christ, the Messiah only needed to be presented once, you are right. Hi was the perfect once for all sacrifice. I wonder why God waited and didn't send Him through Eve? I suppose that is says why but I'm just being lazy. I think that it was to set the stage for law to reign and demonstrate to man the impossibility of man to be perfect in fulfilling the law and then definetly needing a savior to fulfill the law and redeem us back to God.

If that was the only role that the Son of God was to do then He did not need to pre-exist, you are right. I believe however that the Bible speaks of the Son of God in other roles though and for those, He did need to pre-exist the role of Messiah. I will show you this by using only one passage.

Heb 1:2-3
…His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins…
NASU

Notice the order in which these roles are listed.

Some more roles of the Son:
To be heir of all things

to be the one through (not for only but through) whom God made the world

to represent God's nature exactly (the Son was God's nature exactly and He didn't get that nature when He came through Mary for that would have given Him either a nature of man only like Adam and Eve or half man and half God nature. I do not believe that the Bible says that He had the “nature” of man. Correct me if I'm wrong here.) I believe that He had the nature of God before He was conceived in Mary and that which was conceived was a body prepared for that nature to exist in so that the one with the exact nature of God could shed blood for us.

to uphold things by the word of God's power

to make purification of sins

Making purification of sins is listed after all the other roles not before.

Love,
Kathi

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