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Jesus also said, what if ye shall see the son of man ascend up to where he was before? What more could he say to indicate he was in heaven prior to coming to the earth?
I have an axiom I use for interpreting scripture. First, see if Christ addressed the issue. Second, see if the apostles addressed the issue. Most of the false doctrines will be exposed under this two prong test.
Under the first prong (what did Jesus say?) I came down from heaven. I came from the Father in heaven. The Father sent me. John the Baptist in the gospel said that Christ existed before him. Jesus said he existed before Abraham in a passage of scripture where he refers to God as his Father.
To conclude that Jesus did not pre-exist you must argue that none of thes unambiguous scriptures mean what they say. Now you better have some serious proof to do that. I can't find it in the gospels, but I can give you more scriptures that say he did pre-exist.
Did the apostles teach that Christs pre-existed?
Paul said that God made the worlds by Jesus Christ and that Christ created all things in Hebrews and in Colossians. If he created all things then his pre-existence is required otherwise Paul is mistaken. So the apostle Paul believed that he pre-existed as a person,–Mr. Steve, 134.
Does this not seem utterly simple?
If I said to you that I came from New York where I lived with my father James, wouldn't I also be making the statement that I am the son of James in New York? We normally don't point out something so obvious in life because we would be viewed as not playing with a full deck. If I added to the above statement that I am the Son of James in New York, you might respond, yes, I heard you the first time, I made that deduction when you said you lived with your father James in New York.
So why when we read the scriptures where Jesus says he came down from heaven and was sent from his father, which is in heaven, we suddenly think he doesn't mean that he was the son of God in heaven actually, does he? Why question a truth that is so fundamental to our understanding?
But remember this wasn't all Jesus said. He said he would return to where he was before. If I said in the above example that I was returning to New York where I was before, but I wasn't actually in New York at any time, what would you call me? –Steve, 135
Quote I have a thought or question: If Jesus did not exist before being conceived , why The FATHER says the word ” SENT”? if HE sent him it is assumable or logical to deduct that he[Jesus] was 'somewhere else' before he was on Earth.:D –Elaine
JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that SENT me.”JOHN 3:17
“For God SENT forth his Son into the world,If I send something from A to B, it is obvious that it exists at point A.
If it only exists when it gets to point B, how is “sent” the right word?
It “appears” or is “created” or “comes to be” at point B, but it is not “sent.”OK, after searching some other sites, I now do understand the reasons this verse could be taken the other way. They are not Mandy's stated reasons, but I can understand them and see how they would convince many.
Quote (david @ Sep. 28 2008,16:20) OK, after searching some other sites, I now do understand the reasons this verse could be taken the other way. They are not Mandy's stated reasons, but I can understand them and see how they would convince many.
Before I delve into all your posts, would you like to share your new thoughts on how this verse could be seen a different way?David,
GO TO THE PHILIPPIANS THREAD TO CONTINUE TO DISCUSS THAT SCRIPTURE.
Perhaps you could move some of the important questions/posts of yours over there?
Thanks,
MandyHello all,
If Christ had to offer Himself as a sacrifice often, He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world. He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense.Heb 9:24-28
Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASULU
Quote David, GO TO THE PHILIPPIANS THREAD TO CONTINUE TO DISCUSS THAT SCRIPTURE.
I hadn't known or perhaps forgot that thread existed!
That's a much better place to discuss this.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2008,17:25) Hello all,
If Christ had to offer Himself as a sacrifice often, He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world. He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense.Heb 9:24-28
Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASULU
Good point LUQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2008,18:32) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2008,17:25) Hello all,
If Christ had to offer Himself as a sacrifice often, He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world. He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense.Heb 9:24-28
Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASULU
Good point LU
Hmmm, yes, this is a good point.I'm going to look at various translations and see if it's worded any other way as to give another view?
Thanks for this, Kathi.
Love,
MandyQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2008,17:25) Hello all,
If Christ had to offer Himself as a sacrifice often, He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world. He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense.Heb 9:24-28
Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASULU
Good points Sis Kathi,
Therefore it proves the non-preexistence of Jesus prior to his birth and sacrifice once for all on this earth according perfect plan of God when the fullness of times had been fulfilled.Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Oct. 01 2008,20:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2008,17:25) Hello all,
If Christ had to offer Himself as a sacrifice often, He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world. He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense.Heb 9:24-28
Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASULU
Good points Sis Kathi,
Therefore it proves the non-preexistence of Jesus prior to his birth and sacrifice once for all on this earth according perfect plan of God when the fullness of times had been fulfilled.Thanks and love to you
Adam
Adam You got that wrong, Kathi does believe in the preexsisting of Jesus.
The very first sentence say's since the foundation of the world. What is the foundation of the world? Before all were created.
IreneYou are wrong in estimating me Sis Kathi. I never twisted your post but countered it.
Pleease take care
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Oct. 01 2008,04:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2008,17:25) Hello all,
If Christ had to offer Himself as a sacrifice often, He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world. He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense.Heb 9:24-28
Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASULU
Good points Sis Kathi,
Therefore it proves the non-preexistence of Jesus prior to his birth and sacrifice once for all on this earth according perfect plan of God when the fullness of times had been fulfilled.Thanks and love to you
Adam
Hi Adam,
How does this prove the non-pre-existence? It only proves that He only had to die once and that He didn't have to be suffering often since way back in time, before the foundation of the world. That is one reason that we don't see Him manifested in the flesh back in the Old Testament. The main reason for Him to be manifested in the flesh was to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself and that had to happen at the consummation of the ages whatever that means.I guess a word study of what it means to be manifested would be good here.
LUHi Adam and all,
So, I did some looking into the word “manifested” from Hebrews 9:26. It speaks of Christ being manifested at the consummation of the ages. The idea is that He was uncovered, revealed. This lends itself to the idea that at a prior time, He was covered or not revealed. It also gives credeance to the pre-existence belief. At the consummation of the ages, the Christ was “uncovered” and revealed to mankind. Before that He was hidden from us. That is why, IMO, that He is not spoken of clearly in the OT.Heb 9:25-27
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
NASUNT:5319
phaneroo (fan-er-o'-o); from NT:5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively):
KJV – appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright  1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)MANIFEST (ADJECTIVE AND VERB)
1. phaneroo NT:5319, “to make visible, clear, manifest,” known (akin to A, No. 2), is used especially in the writings of the apostles John and Paul), occurring 9 times in the Gospel, 9 times in 1 John, 2 in Rev.; in the Pauline Epistles (including Heb.) 24 times; in the other Gospels, only in Mark, 3 times; elsewhere in 1 Peter 1:20; 5:4.
The true meaning is “to lay bare, uncover, reveal.”
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright Â1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)LU
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 02 2008,16:48) Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 01 2008,04:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2008,17:25) Hello all,
If Christ had to offer Himself as a sacrifice often, He would have done this several times since the foundation of the world. He must have existed since the foundation of the world for that thought to have even made sense.Heb 9:24-28
Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASULU
Good points Sis Kathi,
Therefore it proves the non-preexistence of Jesus prior to his birth and sacrifice once for all on this earth according perfect plan of God when the fullness of times had been fulfilled.Thanks and love to you
Adam
Hi Adam,
How does this prove the non-pre-existence? It only proves that He only had to die once and that He didn't have to be suffering often since way back in time, before the foundation of the world. That is one reason that we don't see Him manifested in the flesh back in the Old Testament. The main reason for Him to be manifested in the flesh was to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself and that had to happen at the consummation of the ages whatever that means.I guess a word study of what it means to be manifested would be good here.
LU
Hi Sis Kathi,
The very purpose of our Messiah is to be born as human and die on the cross once for all for the redemption of our sins. This does not require any preexistent being at all. He has to be a human like the first man Adam who chose to disobey God but our Lord and Messiah Jesus chose to obey God and gave himself as a living sacrifice for all the mankind. I don't see any preexistence here to fulfill the scriptures you quoted above. Please see the greatness of our heavenly Father God who has given authority to men to be called as sons and daughters of God including our Lord Jesus. Jesus was a man and remains to be a man-mediator between One God and men in this universe(1 Tim 2:5). He is not another God or begotten God as you and others often claim. If he is our God he can not be our example because we are human beings.Please take care
Adam
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