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Quote But who is qualified to discern what the true meaning of the passage is for everyone? Apparently you think that you are qualified. So I will wait and see what your teaching is on this passage. So far you write it out in bold and declare that it means preexistence. Well, okay, but why? –mandy
Essentially, this scripture says:
We are to be humble like Christ,
who
although he was existing in God’s form/nature/”outward appearance”
did not consider equality something to be grasped
but
he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.Verse 8 goes on to say: “More than that” he humbled himself even to death.
But, no one questions this verse.
We're concerned with how he humbled himself by 'not considering equality with God something to be grasped' (how would a plan/thought/whatever try to take anything?)
We're concerned with the fact that he “existed” in God's morphe. Mandy, translate morphe any way you like.
Although he was existing in God's whatever, he didn't let pride take over, but humbly acted in the right way.
He “emptied himself” (something a plan/thought/whatever can't do.)He existed in God's morphe but he humbly took on human form, or morphe or whatever..
A plan/thought cannot choose to act humbly. A thought can be a humble thought. But a thought itself cannot choose what it will do.
A person can.
I have a thought right now (what the next sentence will be) Can that thought choose to act humbly? No.
A person can.Or, as I said before:
Quote He would have to exist for himself to humble himself. If he didn't exist with the will to do this or that, and the choice was not his, then we cannot use the word “humble.” A plan or thought cannot humbly choose a course. I have a thought in my mind right now. Can that thought decide to humble itself? I'm beginning to think this just silly. I can have a thought to humbly MYSELF. But can a thought humble ITSELF? Quote So far I haven't seen you do anything different than I've done. Do you have some secrets about the passage that you plan to uncover or something? –Mandy
Here's the difference mandy:
Phil 2:6-7. I include those words.
Quote Quote
I believe that according to the Philippians passage – Jesus was not using the privileges that he could have as the only begotten of God. In this way, he humbled himself. (Mandy)
(David) Still, for it to be humility, he would have had to pre-exist to choose whether to 'use the privileges that he could have' or not. If there was no choice, then there was no humility. And if he had the choice, doesn't this mean he had to preexist?No. He could have used his privileges as a man – the Son of Man and the Son of God – but he chose not to. He was born a Prince, remember? His Daddy was/is the Almighty. He could have called on thousands of angels, remember? But he chose not to. Humility.
What you're saying does suggest humility. Jesus washing the feet of his disciples was also humility. But let's focus on what this scripture actually is talking about:
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus,
who,although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.
Is the humility here about what Jesus did after he was born a human? No, definitely not.
We are to be humble, like Christ, who “although he was existing in God’s form. . . emptied himself and took a slave’s form . . .
THAT WAS THE ACT OF HUMILITY we are discussing. Sure, he was ALSO HUMBLE AFTER he “took a slave's form.” But it was the act of emptying himself and taking on human form that we are discussing, NOT what happened afterward.
It seems dishonest to me to try to shift this to a later time, when it is quite clear.
Quote He was born a Prince, remember? His Daddy was/is the Almighty. He could have called on thousands of angels, remember? But he chose not to. Humility. Yes, he was humble after he was born. We agree. But we're discussing the time when he was existing in God’s form. . . [and] emptied himself and took a slave’s form . . .
Quote Yes, I'm glad you marked this page. Go back and review my responses to you – they would be the same responses I would give you now to the same questions. You see, we have hashed this out…… I really don't see the need to do it again – do you?
Is this thing on? Yes, we discussed the fact that Adam was a real human despite not being created from a man and woman's sexual intercourse. (Hence, in special circumstances, standard defininitions do not always fit.)
But when I spoke of hashing it out, we were speaking of the actual scripture in question.Quote I have given you my opinion on Adam and how God created him versus how Jesus became a Son. I don't have anything further (or new) to say on that topic. I can't remember. Is Adam a real true human according to your definition?
Quote You guys on the other hand take these passages literally. So for you, it's “clear”. Which part would you not take literally?
Quote I'm sure what Ken meant as “special gift” was the fact that Jesus was born a Prince and had at his disposal the very things of God. However Jesus chose not to acknowledge any of that advantage over us……true humility.
Yes, again, true humility, but having nothing to do with the verse in question. We're considering the event that happened when
“he was existing in God’s form,” and “he emptied himself and took a slave’s form.”Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 25 2008,19:03) Quote (david @ Sep. 25 2008,15:09) To deny special treatement, you would have to pre-exist. Done. To empty Himself of any privelege as Kenrch states, he would have to pre-exist.
I don't see the logic here, sorry.AFTER Jesus was born and grew in knowledge he realized who he was…..it was then that he humbled himself and didn't take advantage of his position. He lowered himself. He became poor. HE CHOSE to do this. But he was certainly alive when this revelation came to him.
Right, but we're talking about something he chose way before he was born on earth.See last few posts.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2008,22:26) Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 25 2008,22:02) Sis you are bold enough to face a cloud of preexistence believers.
Hi Gol. Nice strategy, turning it into a them versus us scenario, instead of reconciling us with scripture as it should be.How do you you reconcile the following with your teaching gol?
Q: Are you older than Abraham?
A: "Before Abraham, I am"
"With the glory I had with you before the world began"
God made all things through him and for him, and not anything was made without him.Please do not just jump to the conclusion that this is all about the memory or idea of future things. Just read it for what it says (with no bias). It truly is a no brainer when you read what it says and not what your head is saying.
At the end of the day, if Jesus didn't pre-exist and that was the truth, then I would embrace it because all that matters is the truth. I don't lose money on Jesus pre-exisiting or not. I only see that he did exist from what is written in scripture.
In order to prove your case, you need to explain why quite a lot of scriptures seem to say the opposite of what you are saying. So far you and others haven't delivered. Either you and others have made a hash of it, or you just can't prove it because it isn't true. As it stand now, I haven't truly heard a good reason to believe what your view about those scriptures that appear to teach directly or indirectly that Jesus existed with the Father in the beginning.
I think many of us are still waiting for your smoking gun evidence. But I think I will be waiting the same amount of time for the reason why the Trinity doctrine is true. i.e., it probably will never happen. I have been here for years and no one has given conclusive evidence that the Trinity doctrine is true or that Jesus didn't have glory with the Father before the world began.
The good thing about these forums is that there is ample opportunity to prove what you are saying. You and others are not censored or banned because of your view on such things. But I think I can speak for quite a few people here and say, “where is the smoking gun?“.
Hi brother T8,
I appreciate your concern to my post. In fact there are n-number of times we have debated on this topic also on all those verses you quoted above. Do you think you could prove your preexistence doctrine so far ?I only believe what is clear to me from the Bible by understanding God and Jesus in totallity not in fragments. I see there is only One God in this whole universe who created the heavens and earth by His own word(spoken) and by His Spirit(power). Jesus came into picture only when the same word of God has become flesh in man Jesus the Christ. As Paul rightly told “There is only One God and One man-mediator between that One God and men” (1 Tim 2:5). I don't want to confuse people by mystifying Jesus' preexistence before his birth. I see Jesus like first Adam who was created in the imge and nature of God. Forget about Jesus' preexistence how do you see Jesus in his glorified and exalted status sitting with God ? He is only an image of God but not God Himself. God is invisible and immortal He is beyond our understanding therefore He chose to appear in the man Jesus whom He chose as His son and Messiah. If Jesus was really preexisting prior to his birth why not it is written in O.T why the Author of Hebrews says “God spoke to us through His son in these last days” ? Why Jesus' activities are not disclosed to us if at all he was literally preexisting ?
Please see the logic and not take one or two verses which controdict the whole Bible.
Thanks and peace to you
AdamQuote If Jesus was really preexisting prior to his birth why not it is written in O.T GEN 1:26
“And God went on to say: “Let US make man in our image, according to our likeness,”PROVERBS 8:30
“then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,”Quote Please see the logic and not take one or two verses which controdict the whole Bible.
Hi G.It's not one or two verses. And, there don't seem to be any verses that actually contradict Jesus pre-existence. None.
But here are the one or two that speak of his pre-existence:
JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”G, pretty much always, if a person says: “I have come from [wherever],” that means they existed while they were in [wherever.]
“I am from Texas.” or “I was in Texas before.” Everyone understands that this means I existed prior in texas.So, it seems to me that it is up to you to prove that these words are to be understood in a different way than they always are in every other circumstance.
JOHN 1:30
“This is the one about whom I said, Behind me there comes a man who has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”JOHN 8:57-58
“Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””
(Whether you translate this “I AM” (to mean God) or “I have been,” they would both point to his pre-existence.
The context makes extremely plain that they were talking about age. Jesus response isn't a complicated one.JOHN 3:17
“For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.”JOHN 16:28
“I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.””JOHN 17:24
“Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.”GALATIANS 4:4
“But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law,”REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”JOHN 16:27-28
“For the Father himself has affection for YOU, because YOU have had affection for me and have believed that I came out as the Father’s representative. I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.””
What is a representative? How could he represent his Father if he never knew him….1 JOHN 4:10
“The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.”LUKE 3:21-22
“Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.””JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”(Is Jesus here talking about being turned back into “a plan” as some think he was before he became flesh? Comparing this scripture to Phil 2:7, we have to understand that Jesus, who “was existing in God’s form” had glory as such, and the fact that he “emptied himself” and “took on a slaves form” shows great humility. Which is what Phil 2:5-7 is telling us we should do–be humble. If Jesus did not exist as a person, how could he possibly have showed humility in this way?)A question which you will ignore, obviously.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”
(–We are to have the attitude that Christ who despite “EXISTING IN GOD’S FORM”
–Emptied Himself
–Took on a “slaves form,” “the likeness of men,” “in fashion as a man.”)
He made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child?
We who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we?And, I'm back to sifting through these pages….
The first 100 pages, I've looked through to find comments on Phil 2. the last 50 of those pages really only mention Phil 2 once, very briefly. I'm having trouble finding any actual discussion on it.Quote The very commonly held idea that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? This is the opening question of this thread, and I feel I must address it again.
Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother?
Adam did “not originate in the womb of one's mother.”
Yet, Adam was a human being. If Adam isn't human, then none of us are, for we're his offspring.
Therefore, the answer is:
YES, in those rare instances where God is involved, (Adam/Jesus) it DEFINITELY IS POSSIBLE for God to make a human.
I guess if Jesus not being the product of a mother and father's sexual relations means we have to question Jesus' nature, wouldn't that mean we have to question Adam's nature, as well?Here's the thing: GOD CAN MAKE HUMANS. It's true. And yes, they're real humans.
David! Thank you for those posts, and I agree with you 100%, now my only wish is that Mandy and Adam will grasp this vital truth. IMO And I am not a J.W.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:36) This is another absurd statement if Yeshua did not preexist: Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.No one knows the father except the Son? You would think that one of the hosts of heaven, who are in the company of the Father, would “know” the Father better than Yeshua. It's a very strange declaration if Yeshua did not preexist his incarnation….
Anyone?
(It's from page 68. I'm still looking for discussion on Phil 2 and not finding it.)
But I thought Is 1:18's post was quite interesting.Quote (Not3in1 @ July 27 2007,16:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2007,12:39) Hi not3,
Christ was not just a son of man born of woman.
He was the monogenes son first.
Phil 2 shows he came by his consent.
Where did Jesus consent?
….being found in the image of a man, he humbled himself…”That is not a consent.
Nick, you once told me that there was a meeting in heaven where Jesus agreed to come down…..find those scriptures yet? Actually, any OT scriptures showing JESUS preexisted will be fine
Not 3, you repeatedly do this. Someone is speaking of verse 6 and verse 7, and you respond by talking about verse 8.
It's truly like you don't know those other verses are there.Nick said Jesus “came by his own consent.”
Your response was to quote verse 8, which is speaking of Jesus already being a man, humbling himself as far as death.
But of course, Nick said Jesus “CAME by his own consent.”
Although existing in God's morphe,
he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men
And since this is all about humility, and since it wouldn't have been humility if he had no choice, then yes, he did agree to do this.Mandy, if you bow your head down as someone passes, that might be taken as a sign of humility. If someone physically presses your head down while someone passes, it is not humility, right?
Since we are told IN VERSES 6 AND 7 that Jesus, although existing in God's form, humbly took on a slaves form, we know that he wasn't forced to do this. If he had been forced, it would not have been an act of humility, right?
Quote (david @ Sep. 26 2008,18:57) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:36) This is another absurd statement if Yeshua did not preexist: Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.No one knows the father except the Son? You would think that one of the hosts of heaven, who are in the company of the Father, would “know” the Father better than Yeshua. It's a very strange declaration if Yeshua did not preexist his incarnation….
Anyone?
(It's from page 68. I'm still looking for discussion on Phil 2 and not finding it.)
But I thought Is 1:18's post was quite interesting.
In addition to that. Everyone previous to 2000 years ago, including angels didn't know God if that case.And surely the fact that God is invisible and no one has seen him only makes it more unlikely that Jesus didn't pre-exist as the visible representation of the invisible God. Otherwise, what have God's creatures done pre-2000 years ago? Did they need faith to believe in the invisible God, or were they in Heaven and able to see the visible image of God who is Yeshua.
Not only does scripture teach the pre-existence of Yeshua directly and indirectly, but there are also some weird consequences to there being an invisible God with no visible representative since the beginning of creation till 2000 years ago.
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.And the other weird thing is that Jesus said that he is the only one to have seen God, if so, then he saw God while he was on earth as Jesus hadn't been to Heaven yet according to that theory.
So lets recap.
No one has ever seen God.
2000 years ago, a man was born and while he was on this earth, he saw God.If that were the case, I think that Jesus would need to be preaching to not only man, but angels too. Because angels would have existed in a heaven where God was invisible and there was no visible representation of God in visible body form.
Hi everyone,
I wanted to quickly check in and let you know that I care very much about this topic and your posts directed towards me, I am not ignoring you! I have been so busy the last 48 hours that my head is spinning! This weekend proves to be a busy family time as well. I am hoping to steal some time away soon to address these posts.
Love to all,
MandyQuote Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. Either he was born to be the Savior, or he came on his own accord to be the Savior.
Either way………could he have made a different choice?
-about page 101, or 102, can't remember.Yes. Phil 2:5-8
Long before Jesus came to earth, the Bible reveals that he felt this way:
“The things I was fond of were with the sons of men.” (Proverbs 8:30, 31)“By this we have come to know love, because that one surrendered his soul for us.” (1 John 3:16; John 15:13)
His life was not taken from him. He willingly, and knowingly surrendered his life for us.If he had no choice, would it have been an act of love?
“The love the Christ has compels us, because . . . he died for all that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised up.” (2 Corinthians 5:14, 15)
The apostle Paul said: “The Son of God . . . loved me and handed himself over for me.”—Galatians 2:20; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 4:9, 10.
But more than anything, Phil 2:5-8 do indicate that he had a choice, that he humbled himself, and therefore willingly took on a slaves form, emptying himself of his divine nature, apparently, or if you prefer Mandy, his Godlike “outward appearance” as your website puts it. It would not have been an act of humility if he had no choice mandy.
It didn't have to be him, just someone equal to Adam.
But,
“it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings.” (Heb 2:10)GALATIANS 4:4
“But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law,”(This is just a scripture I wanted to remember for later.)
Just marking page 110 so it's easier to get to the middle of this thread:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….st=1090Quote Does this mean God just picked a spiritual son – any son – to come to earth (you know, out of ALL the sons that were in heaven to choose from)? This idea is confusing because it also lessons the whole conception/begettal/birth of Jesus. It cheapens the phrase, “ONLY Son of God.”
–mandy, page 116
Isn't the expression “only BEGOTTEN son of God”?
The expression “sons of the true God” occurs at Job 1:6, and here the reference is obviously to spirit sons of God assembled in God’s presence.
Again at Job 38:4-7 “the sons of God” who ‘shouted in applause’ when God ‘laid the cornerstone’ of the earth clearly were angelic sons and not humans descended from Adam (as yet not even created).
Again, at Psalm 89:6 “the sons of God” are definitely heavenly creatures, not earthlings.The angels are sons of God.
But Jesus is the “only begotten son of God,” he being the only one created personally by Jehovah, whereas we are told everything else was created through Jesus, who was, if we remember, “came to be beside him [God] as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,” (Prov 8:30)
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