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Quote Trust me. I've hashed it out with the best of them. That's why I'm tired of it. I admire your enthusiasm, David. Keep up the great debate. A debate is where TWO parties discuss a topic. You seem to refuse to even acknowledge that Phil 2:5-8 exists. Hence, not much of a debate.
Quote Jesus preexisted. OK, I believe it. Sure, why not? You remember when I accused you of being flip floppy? What was that guys name (kejonn) I can't remember which one. You kept saying: “beware, beware.” A week later, you were his strongest supporter. Of course, i don't believe you actually think Jesus pre-existed. I think you just want the conversation to end so you can go back to believing what you like about Phil 2, that certain verses simply don't exist.
david.
(Oh, I'm wondering if you know of anywhere on the pre-existence thread where you actually look at what that scripture says.)?
David, do you think I'm an idiot? Because your sure treating me like one. If you don't like what I contribute here, don't read my posts.
Oh, God bless you Nick. Really. I'm heading to bed and really needed to hear those kind words. Sigh….. I really needed that.
Thanks, bro.
Love,
MandyQuote David, do you think I'm an idiot? Because your sure treating me like one. If you don't like what I contribute here, don't read my posts. Mandy, I wasn't trying to be mean. It was a joke. You said to keep up the debate. But it's been extremely one sided, hence, not a debate at all.
Quote If you don't like what I contribute here, don't read my posts.
And I do read your posts. In fact, as you've noticed, I keep asking for them. I never hinted that I don't like what you contribute. I've said the exact opposite, of course, asking you to contribute so I can understand. And since you don't seem to want to discuss Phil 2, I've been looking for your old posts, but can't really find anything on what Phil 2 says, yet.
So I've never said anything like that.Quote David, do you think I'm an idiot?
No.Quote Because your sure treating me like one.
I'm sorry.But more than anyone here, you seemed to think Jesus didn't pre-exist as a person, so i assumed (wrongly I suppose) that you'd have reasons or easily stateable reasons for not believing Phil 2 says that Jesus pre-existed.
I was wrong. I'm sorry.Quote Hi david,
Why not be kind and give Mandy a break?I'm trying. My last couple posts have been in fun, and unfortunately, there is a lag in the read/response time, so by the time I had moved on, she was just getting mad at me.
I guess I can discuss Phil 2:5-8 without Mandy.
Quote If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception. –mandy.
Hi, my name is …. Mumfort.. I do believe he was “existing in God's form” prior to his birth. (Phil 2: 6) I see you don't. I'm wondering what your thoughts were on that verse, and the verses surrounding it?
M
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 16 2008,12:05) Not Superman, but it is written that he is from heaven and Adam was from the earth.
We follow Adam in our nature and being – we are from the earth.The difference is not something folks want to recognize and discuss.
He was tempted as we are. But he kept his eyes on the prize, i.e., to partake of the glory that he had with God before the world began.Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 24 2008,19:27) Oh, God bless you Nick. Really. I'm heading to bed and really needed to hear those kind words. Sigh….. I really needed that. Thanks, bro.
Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
You are very precious and so is your faith.
Just keep it simple and give up on trying to understand everything.Rom14
17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Quote Ha – well I suppose mine? But it is also logical to assume that if a “person” is transported down to a women whereby this “person” is then incarnated (not conceived) inside of her as to obtain the human condition only (not a true conception which is the blending of father and mother to make a *new* person), then this “person” is not fundamentally like us; that is, they are not the product of both father and mother combined in true conception. Hi Mandy. I've read the first 11 pages of this thread. This seems to be one of your main reasons for believing Jesus did not pre-exist as a person.
It seems you feel Jesus would not be “fundamentally like us,” or “not the product of both father and mother combined in true conception,” and hence, not really human.Your saying that Jesus could not have been a real human if he had pre-existed because a real human is the offspring of a man and woman, raises a very interesting paradox. (I love paradoxes.)
This would also mean that Adam was not a real human, for he too wasn't the by product of a man and woman.
Yet, if Adam wasn't human, what are we, his offspring? Hence, I believe your definition of human does not take God into account.
You are essentially saying God cannot create humans. It's impossible for him, because a human is the offspring of a man and woman. Yet, we know God created the first humans. So, something must be wrong here.
Or maybe I'm missing something. I'll keep reading.
david
Quote They were simple people – like me. The message is simple. Last night, while laying in bed, I wondered what a child would think if he was given Phil 2:5-8 to read. I wonder what conclusions he would draw. I'm thinking, the uncomplicated right conclusions.
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus,
who,
although he was existing in God’s form,
gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
No, but he emptied himself
and
took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.
More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.
Would a child reading this think that Jesus pre-existed?
Quote I see scripture very simply.
I'm not sure you see this scripture in the most simple way.Quote Trust me. I've hashed it out with the best of them. That's why I'm tired of it. I admire your enthusiasm, David. –Mandy.
Mandy, I don't think you did, not this scripture, Phil 2. Maybe you did, but I can't really find it.
On page 2 of this thread, you mention Phil 2, but don't actually address what it says. You counter with other thoughts.
Beginning on page 15-17, Is 1:18 repeatedly attempts to get an answer from you on this scripture. On page 18, you quoted a website (which I have no problem with.)
But, that's not really what I'd call “hashing it out.” And the website you quoted only looked at the word “morphe” and tried to create confusion about it. In the end, it explains how morphe can mean “outward appearance.” But however, you define Morphe, however you define it, when we read Phil 2: 5-8, it plainly says Jesus pre-existed.
‘Jesus, exsisting in the “outward appearance” of God, took on a slaves form and came to be in the likeness of men.’
Was the outward existence of God a thought/plan or something like this?Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.And being found in appearance as a man,
If this ENTIRE scripture is about HUMILITY, my question again, is: How could Jesus have shown humility by becoming a man, if he didn't consciously choose that course?
WOW, this is a big thread.
Mandy, on page 39, we come back to Phil 2, where you say:
Quote Regarding the “humbling” of Jesus. I do not agree that he had to start off high in order to come low. I believe that according to the Philippians passage – Jesus was not using the privileges that he could have as the only begotten of God. In this way, he humbled himself. It does not have to be about preexistence. I do believe there is a tendancy to read into scripture what we want to be there. I am guilty of this also. How we know we are doing that? I do not agree that he had to start off high in order to come low.
The definition of humble is: “To bring low.”I believe that according to the Philippians passage – Jesus was not using the privileges that he could have as the only begotten of God. In this way, he humbled himself.
Still, for it to be humility, he would have had to pre-exist to choose whether to 'use the privileges that he could have' or not. If there was no choice, then there was no humility. And if he had the choice, doesn't this mean he had to preexist?Quote (david @ Sep. 25 2008,13:41) Hi Mandy. I've read the first 11 pages of this thread. This seems to be one of your main reasons for believing Jesus did not pre-exist as a person.
It seems you feel Jesus would not be “fundamentally like us,” or “not the product of both father and mother combined in true conception,” and hence, not really human.
Hi david.I think your posts here are quite helpful.
It could also be said that if Jesus were exactly like us, then he would have sinned by now because all have sinned. Obviously he was different, even if he was a true man.
The good news is that what he is, we will be also.
I see this thread gets really interesting on page 42.
I'm just going to mark that for myself.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=410Quote To humble one self is to start off in a higher place and to go down.
How could Jesus humble himself [by becoming] a man if he started life as a man?–t8, page 39
My thoughts exactly (now that I've changed the wording). I feel this question has not been addressed and that it has only been skirted around, and largely avoided throughout this thread.
Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,00:13) Quote (david @ July 02 2007,21:02) The Bible and not human reason clearly bears out numerous times that Jesus, the “only begotten son,” “whose origin is from early times” did have a pre-human existence.
He “emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”
God “prepared a body for him,” and so he “became flesh.”
Jesus spoke of “the glory that [he] had alongside [God] before the world was.”
He repeatedly said things like: “I have come down from heaven” and that he “descended from heaven,” and “from God I came forth and am here.” He spoke of “ascending to where he was before.” He said “I am from the realms above” and “not from this world.”
Before Abraham existed “I am” or “I have been,” he said. He is the “beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of all creation.” And all things “were created through him.” And “he is before all things.” It was “through [Jesus that] he made the system of things.” In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things came into existence through him.”The scriptures are overwhelming in this matter. Human philosophy does not compare.
I’m going to re-emphasize some of what has already been stated by T8, Isaiah 1:18, WJ, etc, and add some to it.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”
Take any translation you like and look at the portion of words that I have underlined, regardless of how it is translated. Then explain to me why you believe those words do not mean what they say.
Remember that he made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child?
For example, we who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we? Or we cannot say that we formerly had divine nature or God's nature can we?
2 CORINTHIANS 8:9
“For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.”(Nothing in scripture indicates that Jesus was materially rich at any time. So I am lead to believe that this most likely is complementary to Phil 2:5-8, referring to him being rich in glory. Of course, as has been suggested, it could mean that he gave up common things like having a place to rest his head, a house, etc. (Mt 8:20)
When in Yeshua's earthly life, and in what sense, was he “rich”?
And when did he become “poor”?MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”
(I don’t really know how this could more clearly teach that Jesus [who it is talking about], that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”)HEBREWS 2:9
“but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].”
HEBREWS 10:5
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.”JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”JOHN 1:14
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.”
(He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.)JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”JOHN 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.””JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”JOHN 8:58
“Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”
HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”PROVERBS 8:22-31
““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land o
f his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”All of these scriptures except for the last are quite obvious to me. There was really no need to even include this last scritpure, but I did so for the sake of completeness.
Is this talking about Jesus?
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Love is not literally God. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.
Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo·héleth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.I would really like a biblical scriptural explanation of why some believe that Jesus didn't have a pre-human existence.
If the scriptures seem so clearly to point to his pre-human existence, we would definitely need some pretty clear scriptures to refute this.
Of course, the Bible doesn't contradict itself so either my scriptures or yours would be somehow all misinterpreted. But as I don't think you would have any scriptures, this isn't a problem.david.
Don't avoid responding to this quote. I would very much like to see your responses!!!
As would I….Quote (david @ Sep. 25 2008,14:49) Quote To humble one self is to start off in a higher place and to go down.
How could Jesus humble himself [by becoming] a man if he started life as a man?–t8, page 39
My thoughts exactly (now that I've changed the wording). I feel this question has not been addressed and that it has only been skirted around, and largely avoided throughout this thread.
I agree.I feel that the arguments made for Jesus not pre-existing in some form are quite lame in comparison to what scripture says.
Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”.
Jesus went to the glory that he had with God before the world began.
God made all things through him and for him.
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