Preexistence

[Tiffany]

Nick, a blind man can see that you are not interested in understanding truth, or learning.
You have made debating a sport, you get a kick out of annoying people.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Moving right along have you found scripture stating what you teach about angels becoming demons?
That is what matters as it would be unwise to keep doing so without support.

[Tiffany]

You made my point!

[NickHassan]

So Georg,
No luck?
I do not think it is written so perhaps back to the drawing boards

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 12 2008,12:11)

Here you are I pasted for you from page 438. Notice what He says,let me correct myself etc…. Nick and t8 To whom it may concern. Does it derail you when I call the fallen angels demons? Are you telling me you have never heard a minister call fallen angels demons? But let me correct myself if that will help you; yes, the bible calls fallen angels devils. All the other things you question are explained in my article; I don't see the need to repeat myself, if you don't pay attention to them in the first place. Georg P.S. if you believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected, you obviously do not understand what a ransom is. Edited by Tiffany on Sep. 12 2008,10:17   Back to top

Hi Georg.

Just for the record, I am not debating with you here.

It is assumed that Satan's angels are devils as Satan is the Devil. But actually I am not sure if devils and demons are entirely the same because Jesus called Judas a devil, but I don't think we can say that Judas was a demon. I think devil is just a general word to describe anybody who has the nature or characteristics of the Devil and it may not be exclusively assigned to one particular class of being. Demons on the other hand may be a class of being, possibly fallen angels as you say.

I have heard other teachings that say that demons were the first inhabitants of earth who also fell. But there is even less proof for that.

I guess it is true that there is no absolute teaching on this though. But I don't have time to search out the finer detail on this.

So for that reason, how can I be against your teachings when I am not even a scholar or seeker of this subject? On the contrary, I have read some of your posts and thought that they were pretty good. I can't speak for all your posts because I haven't read all your posts.

Thanks for listening.

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,09:24)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2008,08:21) t8, Agreed!  And the simple language is that Jesus is “of” God and came “from”the Father. I am “of” my Father and came “from” my father. Mandy But are you the root of your father?

Jesus is the root and offspring of David. He is not the root of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi Irene,
You say
“P.S. if you believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected, you obviously do not understand what a ransom is. “

He was bodily resurrected as he showed his FLESH AND BONES to his disciples.
He had to be raised from the dead or scripture would have lied about his body not rotting.[acts2]

The ransom was accepted in heaven so we cannot quibble.

[Tiffany]

Nick I went on google and looked up fallen Angels. Like t8 said some believe like Georg does, and some believe that they are evil Human spirits. I really do not want to go on with this any further, since there is not a clear scripture, except when talked about demons and fallen Angels.
So I am leaving it at that, and will ask God for more wisdom on this.
Peace and Love Irene

[NickHassan]

Good stuff Irene.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 12 2008,16:32)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,09:24) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2008,08:21) t8, Agreed!  And the simple language is that Jesus is “of” God and came “from”the Father. I am “of” my Father and came “from” my father. Mandy But are you the root of your father? Jesus is the root and offspring of David.  He is not the root of God.

Yes, he is the root of David.

=

[Tiffany]

Hi Nick

Here is the drawing board; from the “New International Version” Disciple's Study Bible.

Mat. 12:27 “And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out?…”
Mk. 5:15 “When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there,…”
Rom. 8:38 “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,…”
Jas. 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that -and shudder.”

Georg

[Tiffany]

Hi t8

Thank you for your courteous reply.

Devil simply means adversary. All the angels that followed Lucifer in his rebellion became devils, adversaries.
I don't know when or were the expression, demon, originated, but I do know demons are Satan's angels.
Jesus also called Peter Satan, Mt. 16:23, because he and Judas tried to stand in his way to do God's will.
Satan the devil is the same, Rev. 12:9, and there are no other demons besides Satan's demons/devils.
To understand God's word, one does not have to be a scholar, but it does requires an open mind.

Good talking with you,

Georg

[Tiffany]

Nick

If Jesus was bodily resurrected, why then, and this is in my post too, did the once that were closest to him not recognize him?
Did Thomas recognize Jesus when he appeared in the room, or was it after he showed him his hands and side?
Did not Paul tell us flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
God raised him in a spirit body, if you think Jesus is still flesh and blood, than you try to walk trough a wall. If Jesus still had all the bruises, marks and scars, it would not be a glorious body.
I wish you would read my post again, this time with a little less pride.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 13 2008,03:38)

Hi Nick Here is the drawing board; from the “New International Version” Disciple's Study Bible. Mat. 12:27 “And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out?…” Mk. 5:15 “When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there,…” Rom. 8:38 “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,…” Jas. 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that -and shudder.” Georg

Hi Georg,
Thank you.

But none of these say that demons ARE or WERE angels.

The fact that they are mentioned ALONGSIDE them tells us they are not the same.

Beelzebub is never said to be an angel or Satan but the leader of the DEMONS.

[Tiffany]

Nick, take off your sunglasses, you are in a dark room.

[Not3in1]

Can you guys move this conversation to an appropriate thread so that those interested in the subject can find your good debate there! 😉

Thanks. I keep checking this thread to find preexistence stuff but you guys are talking about something else…….good stuff…..but not preexistence.

Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,17:29)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 12 2008,16:32) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,09:24) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2008,08:21) t8, Agreed!  And the simple language is that Jesus is “of” God and came “from”the Father. I am “of” my Father and came “from” my father. Mandy But are you the root of your father? Jesus is the root and offspring of David.  He is not the root of God. Yes, he is the root of David. =

But Jesus doesn't have to be preexistent to be the root of David, imo.

The root is the source of something. Jesus was a future son whom God held within his plan or self. In this way, Jesus was God in the beginning (according to my current understanding). In other words, Jesus wasn't his own person yet because he wasn't born yet. So in this way Jesus could also be considered to be the root of David because he was God in the beginning and God is the root of all.

[Adam Pastor]

FYI
ROOT of David, in this context is simply a synonym for “offspring/descendant”.
Jesus being the root & offspring of David is a parallelism which is doubly saying the same thing for emphasis

Here is my former post on this subject :-

Following is the definition according to Strong's Concordance:

Quote

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number:   4491  Browse Lexicon   Original Word Word Origin rJivza apparently a primary word Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Rhiza 6:985,985 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech hrid'-zah      Noun Feminine   Definition a root that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot metaph. offspring, progeny

… “root and offspring of David” …

It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
in scripture.
It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.

E.g. (Psa 8:4)  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3

Also (Job 25:6)  How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.

Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.

… the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …

(Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
Also, (Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!

Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!

BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!

i.e.
(Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:

(Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza'

[UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil)

[Thayer's Lexicon]
rhiza {hrid'-zah}
Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny
Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f
Usage: AV – root 17; 17

G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah}
[LS Grk Lex.]
35625 r`i,za
III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc.

[Friberg Grk Lex]
04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12).

Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan;

Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!

[Proclaimer]

Hmm.

Jesus is the root and offspring at the same time. The simplest understanding is that he is the child and the parent at the same time. And we know that all things were made through him, so all things come from him.

God created woman, but through the man. Adam existed when God made the woman.

The head of the woman is the man, the head of man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God. The woman came from the man, Christ came from God, but is the order also chronological? If not, then all is chronological except for Christ in the above.

Add in statements such as “Before Abraham, I am” and I am sold. It would be a hard road trying to disprove them all. That is my opinion.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 13 2008,12:13)

FYI ROOT of David, in this context is simply a synonym for “offspring/descendant”. Jesus being the root & offspring of David is a parallelism which is doubly saying the same thing for emphasis Here is my former post on this subject :- Following is the definition according to Strong's Concordance: Quote The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number:   4491  Browse Lexicon   Original Word Word Origin rJivza apparently a primary word Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Rhiza 6:985,985 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech hrid'-zah      Noun Feminine   Definition a root that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot metaph. offspring, progeny   … “root and offspring of David” … It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms in scripture. It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition. E.g. (Psa 8:4)  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3 Also (Job 25:6)  How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing. Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David. … the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse … (Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, … Also, (Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah! Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David! BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12; is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10! i.e. (Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza: (Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza' [UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil) [Thayer's Lexicon] rhiza {hrid'-zah} Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f Usage: AV – root 17; 17 G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah} [LS Grk Lex.] 35625 r`i,za III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc. [Friberg Grk Lex] 04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12). Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!

Adam I looked up the other uses of the word root in the New Testament a while back, and they were used in way that most readers would understand, not as the word offspring.

I will quote the scriptures later, but now I have to go out.

[Author]

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