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Quote Jesus humbled himself not accepting any special gift as being the Word but rather became as you and I “in sinful flesh born under the law” the likeness of men. Quote he denied any special treatment and emptied Himself of that privilege becoming in the same circumstances as we were born in. –Kenrch.
I'm not exactly sure where you are going by repeatedly saying that the Bible doesn't say that the Son became flesh, but only says that the Word became flesh. Jesus is the Word of God, just as Aaron was the “mouth” of Moses. Jesus is God's chief spokesman, God's word.
Quote The word became as ALL men a little lower than the angels.
I never “became” a little lower than angels. I always have been, as a human, and I have always been human.Quote The Word was/is part of God. REVELATION 19:13
“and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.”I'm wondering if you think that Jesus is now part of God and not an individual of himself?
JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”Jesus has many titles, descriptions: Christ, Lord, teacher, the Word of God, son of man, etc. They all describe different things about Jesus. But they all do refer to the same one.
Jesus is the son of man. He ascended to where he was before, heaven.
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,14:13) Quote Jesus humbled himself not accepting any special gift as being the Word but rather became as you and I “in sinful flesh born under the law” the likeness of men. Quote he denied any special treatment and emptied Himself of that privilege becoming in the same circumstances as we were born in. –Kenrch.
I'm not exactly sure where you are going by repeatedly saying that the Bible doesn't say that the Son became flesh, but only says that the Word became flesh. Jesus is the Word of God, just as Aaron was the “mouth” of Moses. Jesus is God's chief spokesman, God's word.
Quote The word became as ALL men a little lower than the angels.
I never “became” a little lower than angels. I always have been, as a human, and I have always been human.Quote The Word was/is part of God. REVELATION 19:13
“and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.”I'm wondering if you think that Jesus is now part of God and not an individual of himself?
JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”Jesus has many titles, descriptions: Christ, Lord, teacher, the Word of God, son of man, etc. They all describe different things about Jesus. But they all do refer to the same one.
Jesus is the son of man. He ascended to where he was before, heaven.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.In the beginning was the_son? NO! Word was God.
The word son is not in John 1:1.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Here the Word was made flesh NOT a son. After the word was made flesh THEN the word became the Son of God the only begotten of the Father.
There is no mention of Jesus being in heaven before He was born. Jesus was as you and I a man but with the Word IN Him.
All flesh was created lower than the angels.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.David you are over the beast of the earth aren't you?
Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Psa 8:7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
Psa 8:8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.Quote (kenrch @ July 03 2007,04:12) David, Phi 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
The Son of Man did not look to what He could do rather what the Father Wanted Him to do.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
We who are born again should do the will of the Father and not our own will.
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Here was the Word in the form of the image of God (Gen. 1:27). The Word was with God and was God.
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Jesus humbled himself not accepting any special gift as being the Word but rather became as you and I “in sinful flesh born under the law” the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
Fashion:
G4976
σχῆμα
schēma
skhay'-mah
From the alternate of G2192; a figure (as a mode or circumstance), that is, (by implication) external condition: – fashion.Phi 2:8 And being found in the same Fashion [ circumstance] as a man……
2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Was the Word who became flesh rich? YOU BET! But he denied any special treatment and emptied Himself of that privilege becoming in the same circumstances as we were born in.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The word became as ALL men a little lower than the angels.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The Word was made as a MAN in God's image but lower than angels just as ALL men are!
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Exactly like man the Word had a body.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
The Word was/is part of God.
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Was Jesus the “Son of man” before becoming flesh? What was it that came down from heaven?
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.The WORD feeds our spirit.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.The first creation of God, HIS WORD (Rev. 3:14) became His Son in flesh as WE ARE. Jesus was flesh with his very own spirit just as we have our very own spirit. When we are born again of the Spirit we accept His Word the first born fleshly Son of God. Isn't that what we are?
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Word-bread-food- Get it?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Again was the “Son of man” in heaven or was it the Word that was with God John 1:1.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The Word became flesh~Jesus~ who like us was born under the law but did not break the law making the flesh and His spirit one. We believe it or not if we submit to the Holy Spirit can do the same. Jesus was tempted just as we are but did not sin or break the law He was born under. When and if we DO then we will do the works the Father has for us to do. IMHO We will never be able to accomplish the Father's will until we become ONE.IHN&L,
Ken
Bro Ken – AMEN!David,
Put me down for a “ditto” of Ken's post!
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,05:24) I wonder how a plan can empty itself.
David,You haven't been listening. I hear you arguing for the sake of winning, not necessarily for the sake of learning. I could be wrong but your cocky attitude in an early post – saying that you doubted we could bring any scriptures to refute your stand (or something like that), leads me to wonder if you really want to hear what we have to say, or if your ears are already plugged.
A plan cannot empty itself.
Jesus was the Word/Logos before he was born. Once he was born, he was a living man. A man CAN empty himself of privileges that would otherwise be his.
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,05:24) I do believe this suggests action:
God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things came into existence through him.”
Now you cold say that all things came into existence through God's plan, but why would God say to this plan: “Let us make man in our image.” And if not to Jesus, who was he speaking?
Chap has also asked recently about the plural thing.A few ideas taken from the Christadelpians:
The plurals refer to God working through his angels (Gen 18:2, 22). Divine activity is said to be done by God, although actually executed by the angels (Ex. 3:2, 4-8 – Acts 7:35). Also God gave the ten commandments to Moses but Stephen says it was the angel “which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.” (Acts 7:38). And Jacob said that he had “seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” Hosea states, however, that he wrestled with an angel (Hosea 12:3,4).
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,05:24) So far, in this thread at least, there have been very few scriptures on the other side. There has been philosophising, etc.
There is a mountain of scritpures that say Jesus pre-existed. But I guess that's not an issue with you. It is whether he pre-existed as a plan, or as a spirit being.
I believe that has it's own specific thread, somewhere.But I truly would like a response to my scriptures about whether Jesus pre-existed or not. You agree that he did, but not in the same manner.
I'd like a response to these scriptures, from someone who disagrees.
This is the problem I have been noticing lately – scriptures can be listed quite easily for any view. Scriptures can also very easily be listed for preexistence or on the side of no preexistence. The thing is, it boils down to interpretation. Discussing various interpretations becomes as essential as listing mountains of scriptures!You can list Philippinas 2:6, and John 1:1 till the cows come home – but if you have 6 different interpretations of it (all claiming to be the “right” interpretation) then it becomes necessary to talk about the various views in light of the scripture. Don't discount the discussion. Merely listing scripture and saying it is correct is fine for you, but others may not agree.
I'm sure you would like a response to your list of scriptures, and I hope you get some. As for me, I have already given my responses. I may not bring Greek to my posts, but I certainly bring ideas that should be considered in light of scripture. I have a different approach. We are all different and bring different things.
Even if I had a mountain of scriptures to “counter” the scriptures that you bring……..it wouldn't matter. I've seen some really good arguments made by t8, Ken, KJ and others and they are shot down. These men are much smarter than I am, so sometimes I don't even try. Sometimes I think my “philosophy” is just as good in the debate. At least I can say it's my opinion. It's either that or I list a scripture and say it's my opinion. Either way – it's my (and your) opinion.
Scripture no longer just “speaks for itself.” Not here it doesn't. That is one thing I have learned here……any scripture can be debated.
Quote David, You haven't been listening. I hear you arguing for the sake of winning, not necessarily for the sake of learning.
Not really. I've learned that on this website no one will ever win. What you do see me doing is me putting down a large string of scriptures, all which seem to indicate that Jesus did have a pre-human existence. I see no scriptures to the contrary.
And while you ditto's ken's post, ken's post didn't look at all the scriptures I put down and what he did discuss doesn't suggest that Jesus didn't have a pre-human existence, but only that he believes Jesus existed as a word and not as a spirit being.
Quote I could be wrong but your cocky attitude in an early post – saying that you doubted we could bring any scriptures to refute your stand (or something like that), leads me to wonder if you really want to hear what we have to say, or if your ears are already plugged.
Sorry if you took that this way, but I looked through about 35 of the 43 pages on this site and didn't see scriptures supporting your beliefs.I may have missed them, as I started reading faster after the first ten pages. If there are such scriptures, please quote them. I have quoted the scriptures that support what I believe.
Quote A plan cannot empty itself. Jesus was the Word/Logos before he was born. Once he was born, he was a living man. A man CAN empty himself of privileges that would otherwise be his.
So you're saying that Jesus, as a grown man, willingly “emptied himself” of “privileges that would otherwise be his.”
Yet, this is not what the scripture says.According to ken's translation, the KJ, Jesus: “Who, being in the form of God . . . took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.”
Yes, a man CAN empty himself of privileges, I guess. But this verse which many Bible's have Jesus 'emptying himself' speaks of Jesus being in the form of God and willingly choosing to take on the form of a man. It is not speaking of Jesus after he was a man. It's speaking of his becoming a man, taking on a human form, the likeness of man, whereas he once was in the form of God. It is in this sense, the very words of this verse, that Jesus emptied himself. That is in fact, what the verse says.Quote Chap has also asked recently about the plural thing. A few ideas taken from the Christadelpians:
The plurals refer to God working through his angels (Gen 18:2, 22).
Yes, that would be a possibility if we didn't have other scriptures that specifically said that it was “through” Jesus that God made everything. It wasn't through the angels. No.Quote Divine activity is said to be done by God, although actually executed by the angels (Ex. 3:2, 4-8 – Acts 7:35). Also God gave the ten commandments to Moses but Stephen says it was the angel “which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.” (Acts 7:38). And Jacob said that he had “seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” Hosea states, however, that he wrestled with an angel (Hosea 12:3,4).
Yes, no question to this. But as I just said, since we have those other scriptures that specifically say God created everything “through” Jesus, this thought does not apply.HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”
JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”
Add Provers 8:22-31 in if you like, but we don't have to. It's clear that “the world came into existence THROUGH him.” And “through whom he [God] made the systems of things.So when the scripture says:
GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
it must be obvious who the “us” is. Other scriptures make this clear. There is no need to speculate.
In the beginning [of creation, or the physical universe] the Word was with God, and in the beginning, God said, “let US make man in our image.”
I think, based on those scriptures I quoted above, we cannot believe anything but this.Quote This is the problem I have been noticing lately – scriptures can be listed quite easily for any view. Scriptures can also very easily be listed for preexistence or on the side of no preexistence.
As with your last few posts, I haven't seen any scriptures to support the idea that Jesus didn't have a pre-human existence. Such has largely been the case through this thread.
Again, if I missed the scriptures, I would actually like to discuss them. I just need them pointed out.Quote You can list Philippinas 2:6, and John 1:1 till the cows come home – but if you have 6 different interpretations of it (all claiming to be the “right” interpretation) then it becomes necessary to talk about the various views in light of the scripture. Not really!
Put the list of scriptures down that I quoted a couple pages back from ANY TRANSLATION, and they would all lead to the same conclusion. Right now, I would rather have you mention the scriptures that support your views, as opposed to trying to back out, or cloud the issue by questioning every translation. Name a translation. We'll use that one.Quote Merely listing scripture and saying it is correct is fine for you, but others may not agree.
If there are those that disagree with scripture, I really can't help them too much. As I've said, I'm willing to discuss those scritpures from any Bible you like.Quote I'm sure you would like a response to your list of scriptures, and I hope you get some. As for me, I have already given my responses.
I guess I'll go back and
look for responses to any scriptures.Quote I may not bring Greek to my posts, but I certainly bring ideas that should be considered in light of scripture. I have a different approach. We are all different and bring different things.
I've never suggested we need to know Greek. I think the scriptures should be and are obvious, and clear, as God wanted. I also believe that if there is a large group of scriptures that all seem to say the same thing, that aren't from a highly symbolic book or taken from parables, that it should be clear that those scriptures mean what they say. And without scriptures to the contrary, I see no reason to question them.Quote Even if I had a mountain of scriptures to “counter” the scriptures that you bring……..it wouldn't matter. I've seen some really good arguments made by t8, Ken, KJ and others and they are shot down. These men are much smarter than I am, so sometimes I don't even try. Sometimes I think my “philosophy” is just as good in the debate.
Isn't “philosophy” human reasoning? Scriptures are better.GALATIANS 1:8
“However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we [the early Christians] declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed.”Even if you think you had a vision or some special interpretation given you by God, and it differs from what the Bible clearly says, I would question the “angel” every time. (notice the quotation marks around “angel.”)
Quote Scripture no longer just “speaks for itself.” Not here it doesn't. That is one thing I have learned here……any scripture can be debated.
That's the thing. I haven't seen any scriptures really to support the no pre-existence belief. But, I should really look through this thread again.
If you're afraid of having your scriptures scrutinized in light of the rest of scripture, you shouldn't be. Either they are your ideas or Gods.As far as any scripture can be debated, to the right hearted, the truth will be clear. So whether it's debated or not, someone may see it and recognize it for what it is.
MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”dave
Quote Jesus is motivated by what he will receive (a typical human response) after he sacrifices his life…..immortality and life with God, his Father. –Not3in1, first page. (Nothing was changed or taken from this quote. The dots are his.)
I don't really believe that this was his motivation at all.
I believe he was motivated to sanctify and vindicate his Father's holy name, to sacrifice his life, out of LOVE, for mankind, specifically, for those who would show love to him and his Father. And out of love, he obeyed and did the will of his Father.
It wasn't for selfish gain.
Quote If he was with his Father prior to being born, he certainly never gave us any teachings on the subject. Did he think we didn't need to know about his former life?
Of course, the Bible tells us many things that Jesus doesn't specifically tell us. And no, we don't really need to know about his former life. Other than repeatedly saying he was from heaven, from the realms above, not from this world, we don't need to know, or would perhaps not even understand his descriptions. Of course, we are given glimpses of understanding in Revelation and Daniel for example. But anyway, Jesus didn't come to the earth to tell us what heaven was like.Quote (Mat 1:18) Now the birth [genesis] of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Now we know what genesis means, don't we?
Ans: Beginning!
So, the beginning of Jesus the Messiah was on this wise …
Here, we have a scripture, that someone, (Adam) put down, which I guess is the first scripture that refutes the pre-existence idea.The problem is that genesis means: Origen/birth.
It can mean either. Since Jesus himself repeatedly said he came from heaven, etc, and since this scripture is clearly speaking of the birth of Jesus, this is not really an argument.I think David has raised a number of good points lately, none of which appear to have been addressed. Not3, the point you don't seem to want to face up to is this – there is a clear sequence of events in Phil 2:6-8:
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.The sequence is al follows, Yeshua:
1. Existed in the form of God
2. Emptied Himself
3. Took on the form of a bond-servant
4. Was made in the likeness of men
5. Was found in appearance as a man
6. Humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of deathBefore he emptied Himself He was in the form (morphe) God.
Before he found in appearance as a man He emptied Himself….
Do you now see why this verse so strongly speaks of His preexistence?
Quote John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.” –page 1, first post
Quote If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being –same
Quote “ I do not believe the Messiah was sent into the world simply to don flesh! In my opinion, that would not make him very human.” –page 2
Hi, Not3in1.
I don't want you to think that I'm picking on you. I'm going over what everyone has said on this thread, or at least, looking for scriptures to support the idea that Jesus didn't have a pre-human existence. You are by far the main one on that side. So, much of what I say will be towards you.
Looking at your quotes, you and John Knox, in your “opinion” as you say, believe that God cannot make a real human from someone who is a spirit being.
I believe if he can make a human from scratch, he can make a human from a spirit being. I don't limit God in such ways, since we obviously have no clue what we are talking about in this field. What is a human?If we're going by human opinion or definitions, these obviously wouldn't include the one or two wierd exceptions. Was adam a human?
Is a human someone who is born from humans? hmmm.
Adam was human. His name is the very meaning of man.This may be a problem. Our opinions or ideas of what is a true human.
The idea that God cannot make a true human from a spirit being or that a spirit being cannot become “flesh” isn't really biblical.Quote (david @ July 03 2007,17:36) Put the list of scriptures down that I quoted a couple pages back from ANY TRANSLATION, and they would all lead to the same conclusion. Right now, I would rather have you mention the scriptures that support your views, as opposed to trying to back out, or cloud the issue by questioning every translation. Name a translation. We'll use that one.
I didn't say 6 different “translations,” I said “interpretations.” Such as you are giving….your interpretation of what scripture is saying.David, this is the thing, OK, I don't believe Jesus preexisted because in the gospels we are told that Jesus was conceived and he was born. I take this literally. You may not take it literally, and that is OK.
If someone is conceived, then when they are born they are a new individual. If a person is not yet conceived, they are but a thought/hope/plan/dream – whatever. Their life begins when they are conceived.
Hungry for scripture to back up my belief? Read Luke.
Quote Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy. Could he have done that if he was, say, a pre-existent spirit son who was re-incarnated into flesh? My answer is no! Why? Because he would not be fully human then. He is an incarnation of a previous life. This would not be a human person. This would be a “person” who previously existed who put on flesh! –page 3
Again, you state that Jesus would not be “fully human” if he had been “a pre-existent spirit.”
I'm not sure what reasoning you're using here. Every other time someone was pre-exististed and their life was transferrred into someone's womb, they were fully human. Actually, this is a very very unique case.
So, I'm not sure how we can know what we are talking about, except to use scripture.
God WAS INVOLVED IN THIS. It's not a normal case. It's not usual in any way!
And we can't go on what we consider human to be, as we normally see humans. Jill is a human. She didn't pre-exist. Fred is a human. He didn't pre-exist. Jesus is a human. Therefore, he couldn't have pre-existed.This is false reasoning. Jesus is clearly a special case.
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,17:36) And without scriptures to the contrary, I see no reason to question them.
Possibly there are no scriptures to the “contrary” as you say, however, there are varying interpretations of those very same scriptures.It is pride to think we possess the only true interpretation. Goodness, even C.S. Lewis and Charles Swindoll disagree on components of the Trinity based on interpretational differences.
Quote I don't believe Jesus preexisted because in the gospels we are told that Jesus was conceived and he was born. I take this literally. You may not take it literally, and that is OK. –not3
I of course do take it literally. But I don't limit God. God was involved. You believe that since Jesus was born as a human, he could not possibly have pre-existed.
No scripture supports this belief.
This is clearly a one time deal, so we can't go on what we see around us to draw some conclusion. Scripture is clear on this, i believe.
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,18:19) Quote Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy. Could he have done that if he was, say, a pre-existent spirit son who was re-incarnated into flesh? My answer is no! Why? Because he would not be fully human then. He is an incarnation of a previous life. This would not be a human person. This would be a “person” who previously existed who put on flesh! –page 3
Again, you state that Jesus would not be “fully human” if he had been “a pre-existent spirit.”
I'm not sure what reasoning you're using here. Every other time someone was pre-exististed and their life was transferrred into someone's womb, they were fully human. Actually, this is a very very unique case.
So, I'm not sure how we can know what we are talking about, except to use scripture.
God WAS INVOLVED IN THIS. It's not a normal case. It's not usual in any way!
And we can't go on what we consider human to be, as we normally see humans. Jill is a human. She didn't pre-exist. Fred is a human. He didn't pre-exist. Jesus is a human. Therefore, he couldn't have pre-existed.This is false reasoning. Jesus is clearly a special case.
You say, “Every other time someone was pre-existent and their life was transferred into someone's womb, they were fully human?Who are you talking about here?
Quote If someone is conceived, then when they are born they are a new individual. –Not3
YES, NORMALLY.
What was normal about Jesus life?
What?
There are many scriptures that disagree that Jesus life was normal, and there are many scriptures that I have stated, and others that state that Jesus did have a pre-human existence.
If your main reason for believing he didn't is that all the people you have seen that have been born didn't have a pre-human existence and since Jesus was born, he can't possibly have one….
then I would suggest we look at those scriptures again and consider that Jesus life was just a little more than unusual.
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,18:19) It's not usual in any way!
See, I just don't agree with you!I think man takes Jesus right out of what is “normal” and places him in the outer limits. How can man relate to such a being.
Jesus was conceived, he grew in Mary's uterus for 40 weeks, she went into labor and Jesus was delivered. This is not usual?
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