Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,18:02)

Hi Adam P,

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Mandy, are you not aware that it was statements such as
“Jesus is God's son therefore he is God of very God. … God begets God”;
which became the very bedrock of trinitarianism in the 4th cent., in the first place?

Oh sure, I'm aware. But Paul admonishes us to grow in our depths of understanding. I don't base my beliefs on some old, dead guys who thought they had it right centuries ago. Since then there has been a lot of debate about what they “decided”. I think the vast majority of those who seek truth realize there are errors in their conclusions.

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The Holy Scriptures simply do not make such statements.
So should we?

You mean the “God begets God” part? Right, we cannot find that in scripture but we are told that God begat a son – what else would the Son of God be if not God from God?

Jesus is “of” God. Did the Father not contribute anything to his boy?

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In your desire for “unification”, I fear it can cause compromise & confusion!
IMHO, I suggest you stick with scriptural language.

Son of God is scriptural language. What is a son? The SON OF GOD would be God of God. Jesus is of God. Would God beget a human? Would a dog beget an insect? I believe folks take scriptural language and attach different meanings to certain words to fit their peculiar theology.

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ONE-GOD believing Christians from the time of the early church simply would not speak of
“Jesus is God's son therefore he is God of very God. … God begets God”;

Perhaps not, you are right. But then again our understanding is different from theirs. They couldn't figure out why Jesus was able to calm the storms either. The boys asked each other, “What manner of man is this?” Clearly they understood Jesus was not merely a man. To say he was merely a man, imo, is to say too little of him. In my opinion, it also denies his Father's role in bringing him into the world!

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Well there you go then Mandy.
Seeing that “Jesus cannot be 100% God because both of his parents are not God;”

Jesus therefore cannot be “God of God”.

Surely, that is pretty clear!
Do you not agree?

No, I do not agree. Jesus cannot be God of God because he had a human for a mother? But what about GOD THE FATHER'S contribution? Does it count for nothing?

I still cannot figure out why no one wants to honor God by recognizing that he fathered one, unique Son (through conception). It offends so many…..

Love,
Mandy

Hi Sis Mandy,
“God begets God” is really offending me. In fact it is aganst the Monotheism of the Bible. It is some thing to do with Paganism where gods have sex with human females and gave birth to gods or demi-gods, but it is some thing strange to Jewish Monotheism. Even many Jews and Mohammad who was the founder of Islam were really offended by this logic and hated Christianity to be of Paganist origin. Do you support such deviations from the One God existence in this whole creation ? Understanding Jesus as the Son of God has caused many people fumble in their Christian lives in two extremes ; One as 'God of very God' and the other as mere spirit which seemed to appear as man but not human. That's why there was always some stress given for Jesus being the flesh and blood like any human being in fact like Adam. During St John's times already Paganism had taken its routes to make Jesus as some demi-god or a spirit who seemed to appear like a human but not really a human but was a celestial being. Therefore the Antichrist has been defined as the one who make Jesus as a spirit or celestial being who actually not a flesh and blood. Remember one thing 'No God can be born to any human woman who is a created being'.

Please come out from that dilemma of believing 'God begets God'.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

August 23, 2008 at 6:47 pm#102757

NickHassan

Participant

Hi GM,
I agree that it is not essential the we understand the origins of the man Jesus Christ in terms of salvation. He had to be a man for us to be saved but that does not deny that we can learn of Scripture about these other aspects.

August 25, 2008 at 5:13 am#102842

Participant

Thanks for that understanding brother Nick.

August 25, 2008 at 5:49 am#102845

Participant

Hi Adam,

I'm sorry that God having a Son offends you. You are not the first and you will not be the last, I'm afraid.

But remember, this is just my understanding from the scriptures. Let not my understanding be a stumbling block to you. You must learn what the scriptures say for yourself as it seems that you have done. Hold fast to what you have learned and what you believe God is telling you and I will do the same.

Much love to you,
Mandy

August 25, 2008 at 6:29 am#102851

Participant

Thanks and love to you Sis
Adam

August 26, 2008 at 9:43 am#102958

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 23 2008,23:03)

Please come out from that dilemma of believing 'God begets God'.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

Call it whatever, but God allows us to partake of divine nature. So how much more the son? Or is he exempt and only a being of flesh for eternity?

I know that I have a flesh body and then I will have a spirit body and that I will be like him, that is Christ. It is a mystery, but I would be careful to not say that Jesus was created as a man with no divine origin and no divine nature and spirit body now.

Is it really hard to believe that God shares his nature, spirit, and character with us. In fact I would go as far as to say that he absolutely wants us to seek all of the above. After all are we not his sons, his children, his image?

August 26, 2008 at 10:08 am#102961

Participant

Hi brother T8,
You are absolutely right in saying that God shares His Spirit nature with His Children including Jesus, you and me but that doesn't mean God begets another God. then it will be utter confusion in saying there can be more than one God in this creation. God shares His nature and glory with His creation that is what we are going to be His creation in Christ Jesus. Please see Rom 1:
19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

The above verses infer that God is visible through His creation but no part of His creation can be equal to Him.

Peace to you
Adam

August 26, 2008 at 11:34 am#102989

Participant

Hi Adam.

If the first man was called Adam and all who shared his nature are called adam and if the Devil shares his nature with fallen beings who are called devils, then what are beings called when God shares his nature with them?

If your surname was Jones, and your children are called Jones, does that make them you?

Jesus said of the Judges “ye are theos”. He wasn't saying they were the Most High God, nor was he saying that they were worthy to be called “theos”. He was acknowledging that the ministry they were given was from God. It matters not in this instance that they were not fruitful in that ministry, but that their authority was given by God. Now what about Christ? Is he less worthy of such a title when angels and judges were called theos?

So perhaps it is or isn't as wrong as you think? If you take away the capitalization or the definite article with Theos, you are left with a differing meaning that may just be applicable. I just think an open mind is better than a closed one, that is all.

I am not saying that I go along with Theos begetting Theos. But you could make the argument that THE Theos begets theos, just as the Spirit begets spirit, or The Divine begets divinity. All I am saying is that it is quite likely that the context of these early writers could be that God wasn't begetting God, but that God begets all good things from himself including his nature.

If anything, it could be that the Trinity doctrine took hold from people who didn't understand Greek language and the use of the definite article with Theos versus not using it. It could be quite possible that you are making that same mistake, even though you are not promoting the Trinity doctrine in response.

August 26, 2008 at 11:53 pm#103041

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 26 2008,23:34)

t8,

I agree with you. When I say that God begets God what I am really saying is that “a God had a son”. That son is part God. It doesn't make him THE God, but as you say, perhaps “god”.

Anyway, I'm still fine-tuning what I believe here.

Love,
Mandy

August 27, 2008 at 12:21 am#103046

Tiffany

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 27 2008,11:53)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 26 2008,23:34)

t8,

I agree with you. When I say that God begets God what I am really saying is that “a God had a son”. That son is part God. It doesn't make him THE God, but as you say, perhaps “god”.

Anyway, I'm still fine-tuning what I believe here.

Love,
Mandy

Mandy! Are you not coming closer to believing that Jesus as the Word was there before the world was? Little by little, line upon line.
Peace and Love Irene

August 27, 2008 at 4:25 am#103059

Participant

Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 27 2008,12:21)

Jesus as the Word

What does this mean to you exactly?
Thanks,
Mandy

August 28, 2008 at 8:10 am#103207

Participant

So Sis Mandy,
You are also going into that trap of calling Jesus 'god' or small god not BIG 'GOD' ?
If Jesus is the Son of God, you and me also are son and daughter of God whether this right make us God or gods. Brother T8 should realise that there is no God but one who is the Father in this whole universe. Jesus is Messiah and Son of God being the one who is under the God's Authority and can be called Theos or Elohim. But that doesn't make him God of this universe which there can be only One.

Thanks and blessings
Adam

August 28, 2008 at 8:44 am#103212

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 27 2008,11:53)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 26 2008,23:34)

t8,

I agree with you. When I say that God begets God what I am really saying is that “a God had a son”. That son is part God. It doesn't make him THE God, but as you say, perhaps “god”.

Anyway, I'm still fine-tuning what I believe here.

Love,
Mandy

Or in nature, theos.

Philippians 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

August 28, 2008 at 8:48 am#103213

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 28 2008,20:10)

Thanks and blessings
Adam

Brother T8 has been treaching since the beginning of these forums that there is only one God the Father, who is the only true God.

Brother T8 also recognises that theos can be used in a qualitative way too because brother T8 reads scriptures like Philippians 2:5-8 and recognises that angels and judges were called theos.

Bother T8 likens it to the way Spirit and spirit can be used. We know there is one Spirit, but we also know that God is the Father of spirits. It is not a contradiction and it is what is written anyway.

August 28, 2008 at 9:09 am#103215

Participant

So brother T8, who is Jesus in your theology a god, demi-god, a spirit or an angel if he was not a man like Adam, you and me ?

August 28, 2008 at 12:36 pm#103234

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2008,20:44)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 27 2008,11:53)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 26 2008,23:34)

t8,

I agree with you. When I say that God begets God what I am really saying is that “a God had a son”. That son is part God. It doesn't make him THE God, but as you say, perhaps “god”.

Anyway, I'm still fine-tuning what I believe here.

Love,
Mandy

Or in nature, theos.

What else would Jesus' nature be if it wasn't divine?

His Daddy is the Almighty, after all! :;):

August 28, 2008 at 12:39 pm#103235

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 28 2008,20:10)

Thanks and blessings
Adam

Adam,

I think I've asked you this before but I'm not certain.

If you have a son is he human?

Likewise, if God has a son what would he be?

Love,
Mandy

August 28, 2008 at 2:54 pm#103243

Lightenup

Participant

Hi t8,
Just wondering what you thought here. Did the angels or judges have the “nature of God” like the Son has? If not, that would make Him the only theos with the nature of God, right.
LU

August 29, 2008 at 6:37 am#103314