Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2008,10:11)

Hi not3,
You which is that Spirit-anointed or natural?
WJ believes Christ is and always was a powerful Spirit God.
WJ does not really believe in the anointing of one member of his trinity with another.

But Christ Jesus was MADE a LIVING SPIRIT

I am looking for what we have in common instead of what we do not.

August 18, 2008 at 10:15 pm#102075

Participant

Hello again,

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:36)

There are clear scriptures where the Apostles call Yeshua God.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,09:42)

Perhaps, but they are not clear enough to silence the debate obviously. So there must be something about the “clear” part that is not so clear. :;):

Maybe not to you. But how about the Father's own words.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:36)

Question is if he is God, did the Apostles mean he was “a god”?

If he is God is he “true”.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,09:42)

Even here it is not clear. Jesus says there is only one true God and he points us to his Father as being THAT true God.

1 John 5:20 is clear that Yeshua is “true God”. If the Father and the Apostles call him God then he is obviously True.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,09:42)

He says no one is good but HIM. Again, not clear. Should we separate ourselves from one another based on scripture that is not clear?

He also said he was the “Good shephard” was he lying about himnself, or could it be that he is simply trying to provoke the one who spoke to him as to why did he call Yeshua good?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:36)

Scriptures also clearly state the Holy Spirit is God.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,09:42)

I don't think any one in their right mind would deny this. However, the debate is not whether the holy Spirit is God but rather is the Holy Spirit of separate person of God.

Mandy no one has given me an explanation as to why Yeshua refers to the Comfortor as “another” and uses personal pronouns surrounded by clear verbs describing the Holy Spirit as a sentient being. John 16:13, 14 and John 14:16 are unambiguous in proving this point. Matt 28:19, 2 Cor 13:14 as well as others show there is three yet one.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,09:42)

Again, it is not clear. Should we say we are so far a part in our foundations when the foundations are not 100% clear?

To me my foundation is clear and the Jesus I serve does not appear to be the same as yours. God will be the judge of our hearts.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:36)

We know the Father is God.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,09:42)

Ah, we have the same God after all! This is a sure foundation where scripture is absolutely clear. The teachings of the disciples and Jesus himself will confirm this is true and right.

Mandy

It is clear though that our understanding of the nature of God is vastly different. However we can still Love one another.

August 18, 2008 at 10:16 pm#102076

Participant

When two blocks go together you can begin to build a foundation. With everyone carrying only one block we will never stand on anything but our own ground.

Jesus prayed for unity; I think it must be possible?

August 18, 2008 at 10:22 pm#102077

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,10:14)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2008,10:11)

But Christ Jesus was MADE a LIVING SPIRIT

I am looking for what we have in common instead of what we do not.

Hi not3,
So we can have in common the anointing Spirit of God.
Is this what you mean when you agree the Lord is the Spirit?

August 18, 2008 at 10:23 pm#102078

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2008,10:11)

But Christ Jesus was MADE a LIVING SPIRIT

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 1 Cor 15:45

Do you see the [brackets], [was made] was added by the translators.

Yeshua was and is the “Eternal life” that was with the Father.

Yeshua was not born again as you propose.

August 18, 2008 at 10:29 pm#102080

Participant

Hi WJ,
Was one member of the proposed trinity anointed by another with a third
and yet only one called GOD?

Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Was GOD with GOD in the beginning?

August 18, 2008 at 10:33 pm#102083

Participant

Hey bro, listen, as long as you see us as being “vastly” different from one another there is no hope of unity for today. But I encourage you to look for what we do have in common and see if we cannot understand one another better. An open mind is a terrible thing to lose!

Quote

Could it be that perhaps this passage of scripture contains some error? I'm not saying it does, I'm not even sure I believe it does. All I'm asking is that is it possible? This may answer your question as to the reason no one has been able to give you a satisfactory answer. For myself, I see that you have listed several scriptures to determine that the there is three, yet one. With a teaching of this magnitude I don't believe we have to cut and paste to come to it's conclusion. It should be laid out as clear as the Father is God.

Quote

To me my foundation is clear and the Jesus I serve does not appear to be the same as yours. God will be the judge of our hearts.

Yes, I suppose you are correct in that God will be the judge of our hearts. I was only hoping that we could move towards unity a little closer. But in order to do that we both have to realize that nothing is absolutely clear. If it were Keith, there would be no questions. You say that for you your foundation is clear and maybe you do not have any more questions – I guess that is good for you.

Quote

It is clear though that our understanding of the nature of God is vastly different. However we can still Love one another.

I have always appreciated this about you – you love me anyway! But I don't think we are that far apart, after all we both believe that the Father is God!

Love, Mandy

August 18, 2008 at 10:39 pm#102084

Participant

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 19 2008,10:02)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,09:27)

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 19 2008,09:23)

Now let me get in here.
First I do believe that Jesus as the Word God was there in the beginning with Father God. But I see it as God being a tittle or a Family Name. Question did the Word have a beginning or was He always there with Father God? Here we have to go to other scripture to find this out.
Col. 1:15 I hope that you W.J. and Mandy read this with an open mind.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”
Verse 16 ” For by Him all things were created……………
verse 17 ” And He was before all things and in Him all things consist.”
cerse 18 I ratherfind it interesting, because it shows us that He was first in all. So that He will have preeminence, meaning first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead.

Rev. 3:14 “..These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.” I find this verse also very important because it tells you that He indeed the Firstborn of all creation.

Then when you go to Proverbs 8: 22-30 I love these verses especailly if you take it out of the James Moffat translation of the Bible.
verse 22 ” The eternal

Irene

You have posted this a milllion times and we have read it and it is ambiguous.

Firstborn does not necessarily mean the first to be born. The context of Colossians 1 shows this to be true for it also says he is the firstborn from the dead and we know Christ was not the first to rise from the dead. Paul used the same word in the context which simply means preeminence.

That is upsolutley bull. Look it up in the Dictonary. And Christ was the first that ever was resurrected and became a Spirit being.
You telling me that I have put this up a million times, look in the mirrow about your trinity believe.
The scriptures are not ambiguous they are clear cut, only to those that don't want to even look at them it is.
Some are jsut blind, that is all. I really mainly wrote all of this down for You Mandy.
You know I don't get angry to often, but you have just done so, thank you.

Irene

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, NET

The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator).

Also see…

and

and

August 18, 2008 at 10:54 pm#102086

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,10:33)

Quote

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,10:33)

So in other words you doubt what I am saying when I say to me it is clear who the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is? No, I do not believe the scriptures mentioned have errors. If I thought this then what scripture could I trust? Would I only pick out the ones that agree with me or what I like? Or what I say “God showed me”? Scriptures should be the final test in what we believe God is showing us or else we would make ourselves greater than the witnesses who wrote them and the Spirit who inspired them.

Quote

To me my foundation is clear and the Jesus I serve does not appear to be the same as yours. God will be the judge of our hearts.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,10:33)

We can have and should endevour to have unity in the Spirit, until we come to the unity of the faith.

Quote

It is clear though that our understanding of the nature of God is vastly different. However we can still Love one another.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,10:33)

I have always appreciated this about you – you love me anyway! But I don't think we are that far apart, after all we both believe that the Father is God!

Love, Mandy

See above.

Blessings WJ

August 18, 2008 at 10:59 pm#102087

Participant

Hi WJ,
1Cor15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made [1519]a quickening spirit.

Number 1519
Transliteration:
eis {ice}
Word Origin:
a primary preposition
TDNT:
2:420,211
Part of Speech:
prep
Usage in the KJV:
into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 321

Total: 1773
Definition:
into, unto, to, towards, for, among Wigram's frequency count is 1770 not 1773.
“For” (as used in Acts 2:38 “for the forgiveness…”) could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying “Jesse James wanted for robbery”, “for” could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word “for” signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.

August 18, 2008 at 11:07 pm#102088

Participant

Hi Keith,

Quote

Scriptures should be the final test in what we believe God is showing us or else we would make ourselves greater than the witnesses who wrote them and the Spirit who inspired them.

This sounds good in theory, but we what we do know is that the scriptures have been tainted by scribes and God knows who else! We also know that information they had from ancient times was given new light by the scrolls found not too long ago.

Yes, scriptures should be the final test. However have you noticed how many tests have been written from the same scriptures? Further have you noticed how the answer's are vaired depending on how the test-taker interprets the test?

I'm not saying we should let doubt rule (Lord knows I've been there), but I am proposing that we use caution when dividing one another over words that may have been altered. So how do we know what to trust and what is true? Of course there is no final answer to that question – but we do know that when we love one another and tend to the log in our own eyes that we are better able to encourage and help one another towards the goal (instead of going opposite directions and calling names). Right?

Mandy

August 18, 2008 at 11:13 pm#102090

Participant

Hi not3,
So which Spirit is the one which is the Lord?
Was the Lord appointed or was he always Lord?

Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”

August 18, 2008 at 11:16 pm#102091

Participant

Hi Nick,

Did we have this conversation with Kathi not too long ago? It sounds familiar….

Anyway, just as a prince is the son of a King and does not need to be “appointed” to the office of Prince – I feel the same of Jesus.

However there is a ceremony by which the King does dub the young Prince as such. It's purely ceremonial as the Prince was a Prince by birth-right.

Mandy

August 18, 2008 at 11:17 pm#102092

Participant

Hi not3,
So was Jesus working in his own powers or in the anointing of the Spirit of God?

August 18, 2008 at 11:17 pm#102093

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,11:07)

Hi Keith,

Quote

Scriptures should be the final test in what we believe God is showing us or else we would make ourselves greater than the witnesses who wrote them and the Spirit who inspired them.

Mandy

Yes I realize that many take this view and because of this the tendency is to doubt all scripture.

Not me. If the evidence is found in most of the credible translations found on Biblegateway.com and blueletterbible.org then I believe that is the inspired word of God to me.

Blessings WJ

August 18, 2008 at 11:22 pm#102094

Irene

Participant

Mandy! I really do wish too that we would all be united in the word of God, but I also have come to the conclusion that it is almost impossible. I really had a hard couple of days. First with our Son on Sunday, He believes in the trinity. He and Georg got into discussing the trinity. If God does not show a person, we cant do so, that I have said before, but I too try and try again. So has Georg. We Love each other in spite of it, tho. And so maybe that is what we have to do here also. I have fallen short of it, I must confess again, hopefully this is the last time for me. I will put this on my prayer list. May God have mercy on me.(us)
Peace and Love Irene

August 18, 2008 at 11:22 pm#102095

Participant

Hi WJ,
Inspired true
But it does not mention any trinity.
Should we regard as equally true what is not written?

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

August 18, 2008 at 11:25 pm#102096

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,11:17)

If the evidence is found in most of the credible translations found on Biblegateway.com and blueletterbible.org then I believe that is the inspired word of God to me.

I wonder how many in generations before you felt this way about the KJV and 1 John 5:7? I'm sure at the time all the evidence pointed to the fact that the information they had was credible. But now we know different, don't we? :;):

As I said before, an open mind is a terrible thing to lose.

I'm not encouraging you to doubt or not to trust scripture, I'm mainly encouraging you not to put gulfs inbetween brother's and sister's for not interpreting scripture as you do. There *may be* other ways to understand it?

Love,
Mandy

August 18, 2008 at 11:28 pm#102097

Participant

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 19 2008,11:22)

Sister,
You make me smile. It probably won't be the last time of falling short…..we're human and dang it! we want to be right! :laugh: So often I am right there with you. We all are!

But if we try for unity every now and then, you just never know what might happen? Perhaps even if just a little tolerance for one another grows in our hearts it will be worth it all.

August 18, 2008 at 11:44 pm#102099