Preexistence

[before Time]

Hi All

The solution to knowing the nature of Christ, whether created or born of God begins with the knowledge of why God created the universe to begin with. He created it to extend His Royal Family. Although angels are sons of God as Adam, they are not part of this divine intimate family. Luke 3:38 Job 38:7

Those becoming Sons of God through the redemptive work of Christ receive the blessing of adoption (Eph 1:5) into His cherished family. In turn they develop into siblings of Jesus. Romans 8:13-17; 28-30 Hebrews 2:10-13

Before Time

[Lightenup]

Hello before time,
Glad you are here! The opportunity that we have here on heaven.net will give you the opportunity to teach, learn, grow in patience, debate, confront and enjoy fellowship with seekers all over the globe. Watch out though, it can become addicting also frustrating when you accidently lose your post when trying to send it. I often copy my post before I send it just in case.
Kathi

[RoyT01]

Adam and Mandy

Yes I most certainly did answer 1 Peter 1:20 it’s just that you folks don’t won’t to hear it. Here it is again.
1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. NIV
What had Christ prayed for…?
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

It appears Peter is confirming Christ’s comment to his Father but why? Does Peter think Christ is unsure of the past? Not likely, so let’s see what Peter says next…
1 Peter 1:21
21 Through him (Christ) you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. NIV

It seems to me Peter is simply confirming that what Christ had asked his Father for had already been given To His son; by The Father. However, Peter is speaking of the time he was living in not of an age long gone by. But Peter goes on to speak of the predestined family of God if you choose to read further. But it is clear that attempting to negate Christ’s prayerful words to his Father, in John by something Peter said is out of context and fruitless particularly since it is in regards to another theme. Nonetheless, it is this predestined family that is causing the confusion here.
It is quite true that predestined family was ordained By the Almighty Therefore it is proper for the saints to speak of that family of God as predestined. But it is the family that was predestined not the individuals that make up that family, the only exception to this is the only begotten Son of God, our promised Christ which is clearly confirmed in the second Chapter of 1Peter
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

I placed scripture side by side and if you take the time to actually read it you will see that Peter agrees with what Christ is saying in his prayer and is not arguing at all about Christ’s preexistence with His Father at all. Peter knew that Christ was with God before the world was made Just as Paul and John did
Again look at what Christ is sayin
Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
notice “before the world began” Christ is telling us point blank the time or age he is referring to which is before the first verse of the Bible “IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH that was when the earth was placed in our universe and since Christ shared the Glory of Creation with his Father That is what he is talking about in john 17:4,5 now instead of trying to rewrite these scriptures you might want to attempt to understand What Christ is saying

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 10 2008,05:51)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 09 2008,16:32) Hi all, I want to share some new thoughts on Jesus birth. We know God created Adam from the dust of the ground and the first woman Eve was created from Adam the first man. We also know Jesus became the second Adam who was the promised “Seed of woman”. I want to throw a question to you if God created first woman from Adam then why is it so difficult for Him to create the second Adam Jesus the man from woman alone a virgin ? I believe God can not be a biological Father of Jesus which can only possible in mythology like Hunduism not in Jewish Monotheism. But God can become Father of Jesus by His Holy Spirit which was full in Jesus by which He manifested God to us fully. The 'word of God' became flesh in man Jesus means God was in Jesus and spoken to us in these last dayes as per Heb 1:1-2 1 “In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; 2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son” I also believe Jesus is the true image of the invisible and immortal God not another begotten God but was born(made) in a unique way through a woman by the Holy Spirit of God which is the creating agency of God (Gal 4:4). Thanks and blessings Adam Hi GM, So Jesus did not have human genes but only genes from his mother? If so then no matter what you call him he was not a man. We know he was only fully baptised in the Spirit of God at the Jordan but you say that was when he BECAME the Son of God?

Hi brother Nick,
Remember how God created woman from man instead of any combination as you are doubting, I am asking here is it so difficult for the same God to create or make Jesus the man from woman's egg or XX chromosome by creating YY chromosome and adding it to Mary's egg?

I never denied that Jesus is not having human genes, certainly he shared the characteristics of Abraham's children as per Heb 2 but he has become the son of God by sharing the Spirit of sonship from God. Therefore he is called as both son of man and son of God. But God was with him and in Him by anointing him at Jordan through which he performed many signs and miracles. God was in Jesus and reconciled the world to Him on cross. This is what I believe. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks and blessings
Adam

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Roy,
Again you are knowingly or unknowingly avoiding my question to you; Why Jesus has not asked for the glory that he was having just before his human birth if at all he has one ? I think you agree with the conception of Jesus not any incarnation of God-being then where is the question of any preexistence of human beings my brother? If Jesus the human born like you and me from his mother was preexising then why not we were preexisting before our birth ?

Please think over
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2008,03:06)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 09 2008,02:57) Reproduce  by which means by creation as mentioned in Gen 1 & 5 or in what way? “This is the book of the generations of Adam.   In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.   Male and female created he them;  and blessed them and called their name Adam,  in the day when they were created” Do you think the one who is born to a creation is not a creation ? So you are not a part of this creation ? How do you interpret the meaning of Jesus being the first born of all creation as mentioned in Col 1, if he is not part of this creation? You first answer them my Sis. Thanks Adam Hi Adam, I understand creation as something that is a first of its kind.  I understand a reproduction as a second or third or billionth of its kind.  Granted some things like stars were created as a group and all at once existed.   I am from someone that was created, Eve yet I came by the process of reproduction, not creation.  We are all a part of that creation but none of us are the first man or woman.   I believe that the “holy one” came from someone that was not created.  I believe the Son of God came by the process of reproduction, not creation and that happened before anything was in heaven or on earth. I see the “firstBORN” of creation different than the “first created” of creation.  I believe that the Son of God was not the first of His kind but the first reproduction and last reproduction of His kind.  The first reproduction will never be equal to the original of its kind and will never be less than the first reproduction of its kind.  I believe that the “only” begotten God is the first and last reproduction of His always existent Father, the only true God, the Father is the first of His kind, the Son is the second and last of His kind.  The Son will be the firstborn of many brothers and sisters but His brothers and sisters will be adopted by the Father and not reproduced of the Father. God's Son was the firstborn and only born God of all creation, in otherwords of all living things.  Cain was the firstborn man of creation.  Adam was not the firstborn man of creation although Adam was the first man.  Cain came by reproduction, not creation.  Adam came by creation, not reproduction.  Do you see the difference, Adam? I don't mind your questions at all but please consider my anwers. Kathi

Hi Sis Kathi,
Thanks for your response. You still not answered my questions fully. Ok leave it any how. I don't see any difference between the created Adam and born Jesus both are uniquely made in the image of the True God. Both are called as ' son of God'. The only difference I see is the filling of God's Spirit in Jesus than in Adam. Now Jesus became the life-giving Spirit after his resurrection and he is the author of our salvation and eternal life. I also want to tell you whether some one created or born into this created world will not make them different in any way. You have not answered my question; How Jesus is the first born of all creation if he is not a part of this creation ?

Please understand Jesus is the perfect image of the invisible God not another begotten God. We are also following Jesus to become the same image as he is as per 2 Cor 3:

17 “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18 All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord who is the Spirit”

Peace and love to you
Adam

[Irene]

Adam Question to you. What is a firstborn? And were did God send Jesus from? God so loved the world that He send His only begotten Son into the world to save the world, that through Him all might be saved. If God send His Son, where did He send Him from?
Also if He created all would you not think that He would have to be there to do so?
Col. 1:15 says that He created all.
Rev. 3:14 says that He is the beginning of all the creation of God. Wow He is the beginning of all creation.
Then He said in John 17:5 by Jesus own words He said:” And now, O Father, glorify Me together with the glory which I had with you, before the world was.” WOW He was with the Father?
Then we have John 1:1 In beginning ( here we have a beginning again) was the Word and the Word was God and He was with God. WOW again He was with the Father. And after that He came in the flesh and became a Man. For us, to save us from eternal death.
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2008,00:26)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2008,03:06) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 09 2008,02:57) Reproduce  by which means by creation as mentioned in Gen 1 & 5 or in what way? “This is the book of the generations of Adam.   In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.   Male and female created he them;  and blessed them and called their name Adam,  in the day when they were created” Do you think the one who is born to a creation is not a creation ? So you are not a part of this creation ? How do you interpret the meaning of Jesus being the first born of all creation as mentioned in Col 1, if he is not part of this creation? You first answer them my Sis. Thanks Adam Hi Adam, I understand creation as something that is a first of its kind.  I understand a reproduction as a second or third or billionth of its kind.  Granted some things like stars were created as a group and all at once existed.   I am from someone that was created, Eve yet I came by the process of reproduction, not creation.  We are all a part of that creation but none of us are the first man or woman.   I believe that the “holy one” came from someone that was not created.  I believe the Son of God came by the process of reproduction, not creation and that happened before anything was in heaven or on earth. I see the “firstBORN” of creation different than the “first created” of creation.  I believe that the Son of God was not the first of His kind but the first reproduction and last reproduction of His kind.  The first reproduction will never be equal to the original of its kind and will never be less than the first reproduction of its kind.  I believe that the “only” begotten God is the first and last reproduction of His always existent Father, the only true God, the Father is the first of His kind, the Son is the second and last of His kind.  The Son will be the firstborn of many brothers and sisters but His brothers and sisters will be adopted by the Father and not reproduced of the Father. God's Son was the firstborn and only born God of all creation, in otherwords of all living things.  Cain was the firstborn man of creation.  Adam was not the firstborn man of creation although Adam was the first man.  Cain came by reproduction, not creation.  Adam came by creation, not reproduction.  Do you see the difference, Adam? I don't mind your questions at all but please consider my anwers. Kathi Hi Sis Kathi, Thanks for your response. You still not answered my questions fully. Ok leave it any how. I don't see any difference between the created Adam and born Jesus both are uniquely made in the image of the True God. Both are called as ' son of God'. The only difference I see is the filling of God's Spirit in Jesus than in Adam. Now Jesus became the life-giving Spirit after his resurrection and he is the author of our salvation and eternal life. I also want to tell you whether some one created or born into this created world will not make them different in any way. You have not answered my question; How Jesus is the first born of all creation if he is not a part of this creation ? Please understand Jesus is the perfect image of the invisible God not another begotten God. We are also following Jesus to become the same image as he is as per 2 Cor 3: 17 “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord who is the Spirit” Peace and love to you Adam

Hi Adam,
You asked

Quote

Do you think the one who is born to a creation is not a creation ?

The creator God did not create His own Son. The creator God birthed His own Son. Nothing was in heaven or on earth when that happened. He was the firstborn of God and lastborn of God. He existed before anything was in heaven or on earth.

After that happened God created everything in heaven and on earth though this Son of His.
This creation of everything in heaven and on earth was complete in six days.
On that last day, He created mankind.
The first man was formed of dust, Adam. The first woman was fashioned from a rib, Eve.
The firstborn man was their first child, Cain.

The Son of God was not born a creature (one that is created or from someone that was created). The Son of God was born of God and the only one born of God. No one else is ever born of God as a direct reproduction of God Himself. That is why He is called the only begotten God.

The flesh body that was prepared for Him was born of a creature, Mary, whose egg was fertilized by the power of the Holy Spirit. This allowed Him to dwell in a human body as a creature. That which dwelled in a human body as a creature existed beforehand not as a creature but as the full bred Son of God.

He willingly took on the limits of a human baby, grew in wisdom and stature and favor with God and man. He referred to God as His Father. I think that He is the first one in the Bible that refers to God as His Father. Not sure on that though.

He was recognized by Simeon as the Lord's Christ as a baby and announced by angels to the shepherds as a savior who is Christ the Lord on the day of His birth.

He existed in the body of a child born as a man without the curse of sin and remained sinless.
He started His ministry around the age of 30. He preached the kingdom of God and that no one could be returned to the Father except by Him. He said that He could do nothing of Himself unless the Father did it through Him.
He was crucified for claiming to be the Son of God, He died and rose again on the third day.
He took on a spirit body of glory probably when He was transfigured.

He sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in all believers.

His death made it possible for us to return to the Father one day without the need to be perfect ourselves. Because of Christ, we are a new creature if we trust Him as our Lord and Savior and follow Him.

This is my understanding.

I hope that answers your question.
Good will to you,
Kathi

[Irene]

Kathi! I do have a Question for you? You say that God did not create Jesus. Born means simple brought into existing. God created Jesus and through Him He created everything else.
Rev. 3:14 ..” These things says the Amen, the Faithful, and true Witness, the Beginning of all creation.”
And also in Col. 1:15 It says ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
In both verses it says creation. Even tho to me it makes not to much difference how How God created Jesus, but that He was the firstborn of all creation is what is important.IMO

Peace and Love Irene

[RoyT01]

Adam, Look at your question…
If Jesus, the human born like you and me from his mother, was preexisting then why not we were preexisting before our birth?

My answer… because God never intended anyone other Than His only begotten Son, to be the salvation of all the rest of mankind. What that means is Christ is unique.
Looking at previous posts, Kathie has answered your question.Irene has answered your question I have answered your question which I might add is kind of silly to begin with. I am sure you know that Christ is a one of a kind, which is the very definition of the word “Holy”. He is different than any other man which was true even when he appeared on earth born of the woman Mary; for she was fertilized by the Holy Spirit. This is also the difference between being created and being begotten. Christ was begotten or produced by God not created within her for had Christ been created then he would not have referred to himself as the son of man.
Isn't it amazing that even the very reason for the existence of the whole universe is explained by the Bible as End Time has related. It turns out Christ is that very reason which is why Col 1:16 is saying that before the world was begun All things were created by Him (Christ) and FOR him. It might be added again here for you that Christ could not have created anything in the universe if he hadn’t been begotten by His father to begin with.
The reason you are having trouble understanding this is because you are trying desperately to fit into the Bible your interpretation which is why I told you interpretation leads to trouble meaning you yourself block your understanding of Gods word.
As for everyone interpreting the Bible as Mandy believes I have this to say… what gives anyone the idea that God had His word written so we could all vote on the scriptures we like or dislike? All Scripture Comes from God. All scripture can be understood as absolute truth and He did not have any of those scriptures written with trick or deceptive words in Them. Scriptures are clear and concise the only time confusion appears is when people try to twist them to fit in religious concepts.

RoyT01

[NickHassan]

Hi and welcome Roy,
You say
” I am sure you know that Christ is a one of a kind, which is the very definition of the word “Holy”. “

Luke 4:34
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy[40] One of God.

Number 40
Transliteration:
hagios {hag'-ee-os}
Word Origin:
from hagos (an awful thing) [cf 53, 2282]
TDNT:
1:88,14
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
holy 161, saints 61, Holy One 4, misc 3

Total: 229
Definition:
most holy thing, a saint

[Lightenup]

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 10 2008,07:24)

Kathi!  I do have a Question for you? You say that God did not create Jesus. Born means simple brought into existing. God created Jesus and through Him He created everything else. Rev. 3:14 ..” These things says the Amen, the Faithful, and true Witness, the Beginning of all creation.” And also in Col. 1:15 It says ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” In both verses it says creation. Even tho to me it makes not to much difference how How God created Jesus, but that He was the firstborn of all creation is what is important.IMO Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,
In order to answer your question, I want to ask you whether you think that “created” means the same as “born”.
Let me know so that I can answer your question.
Love,
Kathi

[Irene]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2008,08:22)

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 10 2008,07:24) Kathi!  I do have a Question for you? You say that God did not create Jesus. Born means simple brought into existing. God created Jesus and through Him He created everything else. Rev. 3:14 ..” These things says the Amen, the Faithful, and true Witness, the Beginning of all creation.” And also in Col. 1:15 It says ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” In both verses it says creation. Even tho to me it makes not to much difference how How God created Jesus, but that He was the firstborn of all creation is what is important.IMO Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene, In order to answer your question, I want to ask you whether you think that “created” means the same as “born”. Let me know so that I can answer your question. Love, Kathi

Kathi! I looked up created in my Webster Dict. and it says that create means to come into existence, to make , to produce. Since Jesus is the only one that came forth from the Father, He certainly came about in a different way, then all other creation of God. He was created or brought into existence the same way all the other Angels brought into existence. The difference is the Son was brought into existence by the Father personally, He adopted Him as His only Son, His only begotten Son. He did not do so with the other Angels. He was the firstborn of all creation. He also created all, by the power of the Father, of course. We have to remember that the Father Jehovah is the power behind all.
That is how I see it.
Peace and Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2008,04:56)

Mandy, Yes it is good to treat others with respect and kindness but tough love doesn't always look like that.  Jesus didn't come across too respectful and kind when He approached those buying and selling in the temple.  Still He did love them. Mark 11:15-18 Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves; 16 and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple. 17 And He began to teach and say to them, “Is it not written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS'? But you have made it a ROBBERS'DEN.” NASU Love, Kathi

I won't stray too off the track here, but I find it interesting that Christians always use this passage of scripture to justify treating other Christians poorly.

The debating and disagreements that go on here, imo, cannot even begin to relate to those who were selling their wares in the temple. Jesus displayed righteous anger not at those who disagreed with him, or even towards those who wanted to stone him…… We should be careful how we use this example, imo.

Also, all the laws hang on two commanments…..one of those commands us to love. There is no mention of “tough” love. There is however mention of patience, kindness, and long suffering.

Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 11 2008,08:55)

The difference is the Son was brought into existence by the Father personally, He adopted Him as His only Son

Why would Jesus need to be adopted?

Jesus has always belonged. He was conceived the Son of God.

We await our adoption as sons, per Paul. Jesus was always a Son.

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Before Time…..welcome.

I'm enjoying your perspective, please share more.

I'm glad that you are here,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi,
This issue was never part of the gospel so is of less importance in my view.
It was not necessary for men to accept the origins of Jesus in submission to the gospel.

Rather it was the prophecy fulfilled of the resurrection of a man of God that was that message and the rest is for discussion later.

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

[Irene]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2008,09:40)

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 11 2008,08:55) The difference is the Son was brought into existence by the Father personally, He adopted Him as His only Son Why would Jesus need to be adopted? Jesus has always belonged.  He was conceived the Son of God. We await our adoption as sons, per Paul.  Jesus was always a Son. Love, Mandy

Mandy! I mentioned that because in Proverb 8:30 It says this
” I was with Him then, his foster child. ( James Moffat translation) No big thing, tho.
Peace and Love Irene

[RoyT01]

It was not necessary for men to accept the origins of Jesus in submission to the gospel.

Hello Nick; what you have said above is very true but learning the origin of Christ from the word only serves to enhance the view anyone has of our Christ. You also said …

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

again you are quite right miracles go hand in hand with Christ in fact Christ along with life itself is a miraculous gift from God to all of mankind.

I once had an atheist demand that I explain how God accomplishes miracles that outweigh natural laws such as Christ walking on water. Well of course I can’t explain how Christ did that anymore than anyone else. All I could say was when we fly in an airplane we don’t repeal the law of gravity but we do use another law…that of aerodynamics to accomplish flight. Since all the laws of this universe were written by God Why would He not know which law to apply for any given thing such as making Mary pregnant with His Holy Spirit? Knocking down the walls of Jericho with sound or allowing the apostle Peter to also walk on water.

I might add here to Mandy you are quite right, in fact absolutely right about the command of love towards one another Christ demands of us.

I might also be able to help “lightenup explain “tough” love although I’m sure she doesn’t need my help. If a brother or sister saw you walking blindly towards the edge of a cliff they might hurt your arm yanking you back from the precipice but not pulling you away from that edge would not only be an act of no love, it would actually be an evil action.

RoyT01

[Lightenup]

Hi Roy,
Thank you for your insight and that helping hand. You have my permission to yank me whenever I am straying from truth and/or rewriting scripture in opposition to its meaning However, I am sure you will start with the gentle approach first. If that doesn't work, by all means…yank!
Blessings,
Kathi

[Author]

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