Preexistence

[Not3in1]

Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 08 2008,02:35)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 06 2008,04:35) Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 06 2008,00:31) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 05 2008,18:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2008,17:40) Hi not3, His birth? He was born of woman. Jb25 4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? 5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. 6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? Sure, birth is birth for most of us – no big deal. But what was growing inside of Mary was the only child of God Almighty.  No other child grew from conception that was of God.  No other.   When Jesus was born, it WAS a big deal. Greetings Mandi…..Jesus'birth was a big deal,in as much as it marked the beginning of his ministry and the fullfillment of prophesy….From a carnal point of view the scriptures never bothered to take note of the exact day he was born(eg.His Birthday)because in Gods eyes birthdays are not that important…. Yes, agreed. That AND our heavenly Father had just had a bouncy, baby boy made in his image. Instead of passing out cigars he had a host of angels come and sing!  I bet that was some show!     I doubt that would have happened just to mark a ministry beginning, but maybe? Greetings Mandi…..Point well taken,however,the celebration of the birth of Jesus with respect to the singing angels were for the purpose of announcment….and after the celebration the date that all these things happened slipped into obsurity,never to be noted or celebrated….least of all at the time of the winter soltice…

I imagine there were many things that were not recorded.  Besides, I believe they celebrated “birthdays” a little differently back then.  There is no doubt that days were counted and folks kept track of how long they lived.  For instance, we know how long Adam lived, Moses lived and so on.  So if nothing else, a “birthday” was probably acknowledged by writing it down in a log somewhere.

I would not gloss over the heavenly announcement of the Son of God.  It's important and there is meaning there for those who ponder it.

Thanks Theo,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 08 2008,08:05)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 08 2008,02:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 07 2008,07:39) Hi not3, So the Word was not with God but in Him? How many different ways do you suppose we could interpret, “…with him….”?   Was he physically with him? Was he spiritually with him? Was he a part of him and so with him? Hi not3, If it meant anything other than the simple meaning of WITH scripture would say so.

I would challenge you to do a word study on “with”. I know you like to say, “With means with.” but it's a little more involved than that. The word allows for more than the obvious meaning of in the company of someone.

[Not3in1]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 09 2008,04:57)

Whenever someone attempts to rewrite the scriptures by using their own interpretations they get into trouble. To begin with the Almighty God we serve does not need any help with interpretations from us concerning that great majestic work of His word, which He has already accomplished quite superbly.

Hi Roy,

I was about to respond to a previous post of yours when I found the quote above – you were responding to Adam.

With all due respect, even you bring unique interpretations here to the board (we all do). I certainly wouldn't chastize another brother for sharing his interpretations. To a large degree, we all “rewrite the scriptures” to skew left or right depending on whatever view we may have a the time.

Take care,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 08 2008,02:22)

John 17:4-5 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. And just to make sure we understand what he is saying he confirms that preexistence  in later verse in that same chapter of John

Hello again,

Roy, have you read through this thread?  It may be helpful for you to see which verses have been hotly debated.

Your interpretation of the above passage is not convincing.  It proves nothing.  Really, if it was that cut-and-dry do you think we would even be having this discussion?  More study is needed on all of our parts.

Have a great weekend,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Roy,
Thanks for your response on preexistence but you have not answered my question on why not Jesus was aksing for the glory just before his birth on earth if he was having one physically and literally?
Why he was asking only the glory which was before the foundations of the world?
Do you not see the logic behind these questions ?

You have questioned my interpretations stating them they are of human but what about your ignorance and biased interpretations on Eph 1:4-5 and 1 Pet 1:20 ?

Please come out from your comfortable zone and see the scriptures what exactly they mean and you will see wonders. You have to unlearn many things to learn truth from the scriptures.

peace and blessings
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 08 2008,02:22)

First, I would like to thank all those who welcomed me to Heaven net.  Second I have looked at the many comments on the debate of the preexistence of the only begotten Son of God. Everyone seems to have There own concepts and ideas concerning this event which took place before our universe was begun.  However, that debate was settled  By our Lord and Christ during a prayer to His father when he was here on earth completing what had been preordained by the Father before the creation of our  universe was even started  This is Christ speaking in a prayer to his Father John 17:4-5 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. And just to make sure we understand what he is saying he confirms that preexistence  in later verse in that same chapter of John John 17:24 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. NIV Since or Lord is referring to his glory in a time before creation was instigated by his Father and himself why should we doubt his credabiliy  by saying we know more than he does about something only He an d His father were present for. I am happy to be here in heaven Net because you all seem to be looking to underststand What our Creator has told us in His wondrous word

Welcome Roy! There are a few of us that do believe that Jesus preexisted before the world began. I am one of those. To me Col. 1:15 means firstborn of all creation. Also
Rev. 3:14 … ” This things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
He is with God in the beginning John 1:1
To me it is clear.
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (Irene @ Aug. 08 2008,22:43)

Quote (RoyT01 @ Aug. 08 2008,02:22) First, I would like to thank all those who welcomed me to Heaven net.  Second I have looked at the many comments on the debate of the preexistence of the only begotten Son of God. Everyone seems to have There own concepts and ideas concerning this event which took place before our universe was begun.  However, that debate was settled  By our Lord and Christ during a prayer to His father when he was here on earth completing what had been preordained by the Father before the creation of our  universe was even started  This is Christ speaking in a prayer to his Father John 17:4-5 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. And just to make sure we understand what he is saying he confirms that preexistence  in later verse in that same chapter of John John 17:24 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. NIV Since or Lord is referring to his glory in a time before creation was instigated by his Father and himself why should we doubt his credabiliy  by saying we know more than he does about something only He an d His father were present for. I am happy to be here in heaven Net because you all seem to be looking to underststand What our Creator has told us in His wondrous word Welcome Roy!  There are a few of us that do believe that Jesus preexisted before the world began. I am one of those. To me Col. 1:15 means firstborn of all creation. Also Rev. 3:14 … ” This things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” He is with God in the beginning John 1:1 To me it is clear. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Roy and Irene.
I am happy to agree with you on the pre-existence of Christ. When we look at this verse:

“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

That is exactly what we read.

It seems that others read that verse as if it were saying:

“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory YOU HAD FOR ME before the world was.”

But it doesn't!

Do they think that Christ didn't know how to get His message across? Couldn't He have said the other words if that is what He meant. Does He need their help to retranslate the verse? I don't think so.

It means what is says it means.

Blessings to you,
Kathi

[gollamudi]

Hi all,
I want to share some new thoughts on Jesus birth. We know God created Adam from the dust of the ground and the first woman Eve was created from Adam the first man. We also know Jesus became the second Adam who was the promised “Seed of woman”. I want to throw a question to you if God created first woman from Adam then why is it so difficult for Him to create the second Adam Jesus the man from woman alone a virgin ? I believe God can not be a biological Father of Jesus which can only possible in mythology like Hunduism not in Jewish Monotheism. But God can become Father of Jesus by His Holy Spirit which was full in Jesus by which He manifested God to us fully. The 'word of God' became flesh in man Jesus means God was in Jesus and spoken to us in these last dayes as per Heb 1:1-2

1 “In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son”

I also believe Jesus is the true image of the invisible and immortal God not another begotten God but was born(made) in a unique way through a woman by the Holy Spirit of God which is the creating agency of God (Gal 4:4).

Thanks and blessings
Adam

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 09 2008,00:32)

Hi all, I want to share some new thoughts on Jesus birth. We know God created Adam from the dust of the ground and the first woman Eve was created from Adam the first man. We also know Jesus became the second Adam who was the promised “Seed of woman”. I want to throw a question to you if God created first woman from Adam then why is it so difficult for Him to create the second Adam Jesus the man from woman alone a virgin ? I believe God can not be a biological Father of Jesus which can only possible in mythology like Hunduism not in Jewish Monotheism. But God can become Father of Jesus by His Holy Spirit which was full in Jesus by which He manifested God to us fully. The 'word of God' became flesh in man Jesus means God was in Jesus and spoken to us in these last dayes as per Heb 1:1-2 1 “In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; 2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son” I also believe Jesus is the true image of the invisible and immortal God not another begotten God but was born(made) in a unique way through a woman by the Holy Spirit of God which is the creating agency of God (Gal 4:4). Thanks and blessings Adam

Hi Adam,
Wasn't the act of creation completed by day seven of the creation week? Anything said to be “created” after that was more like “regenereated” as in “create in me a new heart”. So, I do not think He created the second Adam since the act of creating was finished.

Now, I want to throw a question to you, is it so hard for God to reproduce another like himself, a true image of the invisible and immortal God?

Kathi

[gollamudi]

Reproduce  by which means by creation as mentioned in Gen 1 & 5 or in what way?

“This is the book of the generations of Adam.   In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.   Male and female created he them;  and blessed them and called their name Adam,  in the day when they were created”

Do you think the one who is born to a creation is not a creation ?

So you are not a part of this creation ? How do you interpret the meaning of Jesus being the first born of all creation as mentioned in Col 1, if he is not part of this creation?

You first answer them my Sis.
Thanks
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 09 2008,15:55)

It seems that others read that verse as if it were saying: “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory YOU HAD FOR ME before the world was.” But it doesn't! Do they think that Christ didn't know how to get His message across? Couldn't He have said the other words if that is what He meant. Does He need their help to retranslate the verse? I don't think so. It means what is says it means.

Hi Kathi,

I'm always a bit disappointed when I hear you using snide remarks to get your point accross. You really don't need to, do you?

Of course Jesus could have used different words to describe the glory he had with the Father, but he really didn't need to. We are told of the glory of Jesus in John:

John 1:14

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus' glory is that of the Son. Jesus was with the Father in the beginning. This does not prove preexistence. As I have pointed out to Nick, “with” has a variety of meanings when taken out all the way. A little word with big meaning.

Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 09 2008,16:32)

I want to throw a question to you if God created first woman from Adam then why is it so difficult for Him to create the second Adam Jesus the man from woman alone a virgin ?

Hi Adam,

Let me ask you something, brother. Why is it so offensive to you that perhaps God contributed to his Son like you have contributed to your son?

Mandy

[gollamudi]

Because God is not a man or a son of man to be treated like that. 'God begets God' is some thing to do with mythology not for Jewish monotheism. Please understand that who is born to creation like Mary can not be another God but can only be another man as Paul rightly says as “there is one God and one mediator Christ Jesus the man between men and God. There can never be a demi-god or God/man as often quote. Please say Jesus is the man in perfect image of True God being not himself is that God.

Love to you
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Welcome RoyT01.

I look forward to hear what you have to say.

So far I agree with 2 of your posts I read in this discussion, regarding Jesus being the literal firstborn of all creation.

[Lightenup]

Hi Mandy,
I am sorry to disappoint you if my boldness lessens my effectiveness with you. I stand up for the truth as I feel God has shown me and I try to give reasons as best I can. I will never please all people when I am standing up for a truth that doesn't jive with what others believe, nevertheless, I will stand up for it by God's strength. I can only hope to be more effective with you for the sake of truth.

Please pray for me in that regard,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 09 2008,02:57)

Reproduce  by which means by creation as mentioned in Gen 1 & 5 or in what way? “This is the book of the generations of Adam.   In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.   Male and female created he them;  and blessed them and called their name Adam,  in the day when they were created” Do you think the one who is born to a creation is not a creation ? So you are not a part of this creation ? How do you interpret the meaning of Jesus being the first born of all creation as mentioned in Col 1, if he is not part of this creation? You first answer them my Sis. Thanks Adam

Hi Adam,
I understand creation as something that is a first of its kind. I understand a reproduction as a second or third or billionth of its kind. Granted some things like stars were created as a group and all at once existed.

I am from someone that was created, Eve yet I came by the process of reproduction, not creation. We are all a part of that creation but none of us are the first man or woman.

I believe that the “holy one” came from someone that was not created. I believe the Son of God came by the process of reproduction, not creation and that happened before anything was in heaven or on earth.

I see the “firstBORN” of creation different than the “first created” of creation. I believe that the Son of God was not the first of His kind but the first reproduction and last reproduction of His kind. The first reproduction will never be equal to the original of its kind and will never be less than the first reproduction of its kind. I believe that the “only” begotten God is the first and last reproduction of His always existent Father, the only true God, the Father is the first of His kind, the Son is the second and last of His kind. The Son will be the firstborn of many brothers and sisters but His brothers and sisters will be adopted by the Father and not reproduced of the Father.

God's Son was the firstborn and only born God of all creation, in otherwords of all living things. Cain was the firstborn man of creation. Adam was not the firstborn man of creation although Adam was the first man. Cain came by reproduction, not creation. Adam came by creation, not reproduction. Do you see the difference, Adam?

I don't mind your questions at all but please consider my anwers.
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2008,02:15)

I can only hope to be more effective with you for the sake of truth.

Thanks, Kathi.

I appreciate your willingness to try and understand my and other's feelings.

Remember that you are sharing the truth that you believe God has shown you. Other's also believe that God has shown them truth. We all believe we have heard from the same Spirit of God. Therefore it is a good thing to treat other's with respect and kindness.

One thing I do hold against orthodox believer's and those who are staunch in their thinking is that they leave no room for other's to potentially be correct, or even partially correct. It's usually all or nothing. This does not fit in with the truth of God that mercy triumphs over judgement! I've said this recently and it bears saying again – many will be surprised to see who is standing next to them on that Day and being counted, along with them, as children of God.

Love,
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Mandy,
Yes it is good to treat others with respect and kindness but tough love doesn't always look like that. Jesus didn't come across too respectful and kind when He approached those buying and selling in the temple. Still He did love them.

Mark 11:15-18

Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves; 16 and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple. 17 And He began to teach and say to them, “Is it not written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS'? But you have made it a ROBBERS'DEN.”
NASU

Love,
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 09 2008,16:32)

Hi all, I want to share some new thoughts on Jesus birth. We know God created Adam from the dust of the ground and the first woman Eve was created from Adam the first man. We also know Jesus became the second Adam who was the promised “Seed of woman”. I want to throw a question to you if God created first woman from Adam then why is it so difficult for Him to create the second Adam Jesus the man from woman alone a virgin ? I believe God can not be a biological Father of Jesus which can only possible in mythology like Hunduism not in Jewish Monotheism. But God can become Father of Jesus by His Holy Spirit which was full in Jesus by which He manifested God to us fully. The 'word of God' became flesh in man Jesus means God was in Jesus and spoken to us in these last dayes as per Heb 1:1-2 1 “In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; 2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son” I also believe Jesus is the true image of the invisible and immortal God not another begotten God but was born(made) in a unique way through a woman by the Holy Spirit of God which is the creating agency of God (Gal 4:4). Thanks and blessings Adam

Hi GM,
So Jesus did not have human genes but only genes from his mother? If so then no matter what you call him he was not a man.

We know he was only fully baptised in the Spirit of God at the Jordan but you say that was when he BECAME the Son of God?

[RoyT01]

With all due respect, even you bring unique interpretations here to the board (we all do). I certainly wouldn't chastize another brother for sharing his interpretations. To a large degree, we all “rewrite the scriptures” to skew left or right depending on whatever view we may have a the time.

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