Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 26 2008,14:14)

Nick,
Do you not believe that God can guide you into all truth?

Hi LU,
We need the map to work with the compass.

July 26, 2008 at 5:04 am#99083

Not3in1

Participant

Nick,

Question: if things are as LU says regarding monogenes, how does this affect your preexistence theory? I'm curious. And since you are correct in saying we cannot ourselves choose which manuscript is “the” truth, how are we to know? Cleary, Kathi is drawn to one version because it aligns nicely with her theory, you prefer another version because it aligns with yours. These two are in contradiction with one another. How do we reconcile?

Thanks,
Mandy

July 26, 2008 at 5:20 am#99085

Participant

Hi not3,
I do not deny either possibility, nor do I favour either.
Neither threaten the extraordinary origins of the monogenes Son of God.

July 26, 2008 at 5:25 am#99086

Not3in1

Participant

You obviously favor the reading to be “son” versus “God”. If it were “God” then you would have to rethink the idea that the son was a preexistent spirit. Or am I completely off track here?

It is a bit different to be a begotten son versus a begotten God, no?

Thanks for answering. I'm heading to bed but I'll check back next week sometime. Take care!
Mandy

July 26, 2008 at 5:29 am#99088

Participant

Hi not3,
Why?
Psalm 86:8
There is no one like You among the gods, O Lord,Nor are there any works like Yours.
Psalm 95:3
For the LORD is a great GodAnd a great King above all gods,
Psalm 96:4
For great is the LORD and greatly to be praised;He is to be feared above all gods.
Psalm 97:7
Let all those be ashamed who serve graven images,Who boast themselves of idols; Worship Him, all you gods.
Psalm 97:9
For You are the LORD Most High over all the earth;You are exalted far above all gods.
even
Psalm 82:6
I said, “You are gods,And all of you are sons of the Most High.

July 26, 2008 at 3:55 pm#99117

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2008,22:59)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 26 2008,14:14)

Nick,
Do you not believe that God can guide you into all truth?

Hi LU,
We need the map to work with the compass.

Hi Nick,
Are you saying that we need the right manuscript to find God and who He is as well as who His Son is. I would say that it is most helpful. However the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth inspite of man's error. Ask God to show you which is correct I think you know that He can show that to you in His right time.

July 26, 2008 at 7:44 pm#99123

Participant

Hi LU,
There is only one original version of each NT scripture. Copying has led to mistakes and c'est la vie.
Even if God showed someone which was the true one he could not teach it.

July 27, 2008 at 2:25 am#99130

Participant

Hi Nick,
I do think that anyone can teach truth that God has showed them but only those with ears to hear and eyes to see will benefit.

July 27, 2008 at 2:33 am#99131

Participant

Hi LU,
We may know some stuff but what we teach is what is written.

July 27, 2008 at 3:21 am#99132

Participant

Hi Nick,
Yes, we can teach what is written. “Begotten God” is written “FirstBORN of all creation” is written “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” is written, and the “word was God” is written to name a few. These all refer to the Son of God.

July 27, 2008 at 3:39 am#99133

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ July 25 2008,22:57)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 25 2008,22:12)

Hi Golla,
Thank you for your response to my quest. Now another question for you…Do you see in this passage below of Mark 12:28-34 that it speaks of there being one Lord and that one Lord is God?

Hi Sis Kathi,
Thanks for asking me this question and here are some thoughts on LORD and Lord;

Is there a difference between “LORD” and “Lord” in the scriptures?

A: Yes. When “the LORD” appears in all capital letters in the Old Testament of the King James translation of the Bible, it is almost always the Hebrew word “Jehovah” or YHWH, God's proper name. Jehovah(YHWH) means “the existing one”. The KJV translators did not spell out the name Jehovah(YHWH), but replaced it with “the LORD” 99.86% of the more than 6000 times that it occurs in the Old Testament. This translation may give some readers the impression that God almost always refers to Himself by the title, “the LORD”, when actually, He usually refers to Himself as “Jehovah”. In every case that I know of, “the LORD” in the Bible refers to God's proper name(YHWH). This term is not used in the Greek portion of scriptures commonly referred to as the “New Testament”.

In the scriptures, the title, “Lord”, not in all caps, may or may not be referring to God. Readers should look at the context of how it is used. In the new testament, the Greek word is “kurios”, which means “master” or “the one to whom the speaker belongs”. “Lord” is used as a title of honor and respect. It usually refers to Jesus in the new testament but not always. For example, Festus calls King Agrippa “lord” (kurios) in Acts 25:26. 1 Peter 3:6 tells how Sarah called Abraham “lord” (kurios). In these verses, the translators left “lord” in lower case.

In the old testament, the Hebrew word “adonay” or “ADONAI” is used at a title of deep respect and translated “LORD”. It usually refers to God. Also, the Hebrew word “adown” or “ADONI” is often used at a title of deep respect and translated “Lord” as in Genesis 23:6 where the children of Heth called Abraham “lord” or in Genesis 18:12 where Sara called Abraham “lord”. Often, “adown” is translated as “master” instead of “lord”. It usually refers to a man in a position of respect, but may occasionally be used in reference to God.

So Sis I think you appreciate the differece between these two words LORD and Lord mentioned in different english translations. Jesus is mentioned as Lord not the “LORD” God. I think you people are confused with two bliefs; one the Trinity and the other Arianism they are dead against each other. The christian history has many pages in the past. If you want you can see for your self. God should be understood from Jewish point of not on pagan beliefs where we make more than one God by calling Jesus a begotten God. Please take care when you interpret scriptures in the light of Jewish monotheism. I hope you know better Hebrew and Greek.

You can see for your self that there is difference between the words the LORD and Lord which are ADONAI and ADONI in Hebrew.

Thanks and blessings
Adam

Hi Golla,
Thank you for your time to post all that. Your right in that context is very important because it helps clarify which Lord is referred to. Would you agree that there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ?

Take care,
Kathi

July 27, 2008 at 3:53 am#99134

Participant

Hi Kathi,
Thanks for that agreement, but you again seem to say Father with small Lord than with big LORD. I believe the LORD(Adonai) God is Fahter and His son Jesus the Lord(Adoni) the Messiah.
Blessings
Adam

July 27, 2008 at 4:17 am#99137

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ July 26 2008,23:53)

Hi ADAM,
I am not too concerned with capital letters. I am not sure about the written Hebrew but I know in the original Greek, all letters were capitalized and there was no punctuation or spaces. The important thing is what is meant in the context. No need to fret over this.

You did not answer my question though.
Blessings,
KATHI or Kathi (still the same person)

July 27, 2008 at 4:31 am#99138

Participant

Hi Sis,
I have already answered your question in my earlier post on LORD(Adonai) and Lord(Adoni). There is big difference in their usage especially in O.T. The N.T has only one word 'Lord' which is 'kurios' in greek, that doesn't make Lord Jesus as LORD God. If you are more interested to know on this subject see the link below;
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/lord-lord-lord.html

Thanks and blessings
Adam

July 27, 2008 at 11:46 am#99153

Participant

Thanks Golla,
I read through your link. Where does that link prove no pre-existense? It just shows that there is a most high LORD-the Father of Christ and there are lords that are not the most high LORD.

My question to you was:
Would you agree that there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ? So you answer is “yes”?

July 28, 2008 at 2:19 am#99180

Participant

Hi Sis Kathi,
I have not meant that the passage talks about any preexistence, infact I was replying your question on Mark 12:29
“And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord”

The english translations in N.T. uses Lord instead of LORD here whereas the original verse that Jesus was referring to is from Deut 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD”

I wanted you to know the differece between the LORD and the Lord. As the link might have clarified you that the LORD is always used for the Father God but the N.T makes no difference. I understand Father only is that One and only God but not Jesus who has been appointed as the one in authority called as Lord the Messiah also as per 1 Cori 8:6. There can never be another God besides this One God Father.

I think we better concentrate on the subject preexistence.
Thanks and blessings
Adam

July 28, 2008 at 2:29 am#99181

Participant

Hi Adam,
Are you purposely not answering my question. It is a yes or no question

My question to you was:
Would you agree that there is one always existing Lord-the Father, and for us, one begotten Lord-Jesus Christ? So you answer is “yes”?

Please answer this so we can move on.

July 28, 2008 at 8:51 am#99200

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2008,16:17)

Quote (gollamudi @ July 26 2008,23:53)

You did not answer my question though.
Blessings,
KATHI or Kathi (still the same person)

YHWH was translated LORD
Kurious was translated Lord or lord.

They are not the same word, but some confusion remains and it is often used by Trinitarians to say that Jesus is the Almighty God.

July 28, 2008 at 9:02 am#99203