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just providing this stuff for the purpose of research since these sources are not (to my knowledge) available on the net….
blessings,
KenQuote (gollamudi @ July 25 2008,19:22) Hi brother Ken,
I appreciate your detailed quote on Jesus' preexistence, whatever you have quoted is often quoted by any Trinitarian to prove Jesus being in the Godhead as the second person coexisting with the Father from eternity. Do you want to prove this idea or whatelse? If you say Jesus is not God then he should not be either an angel as per Heb 2. That's why I always quote here, you can not stand on two boats by believing Jesus' preexistence as some devine being and not believing as God. I give more credit to Trinity than to Arianism which makes understanding of Jesus more complicated and mystery. I am open to receive any truth if proved beyond doubt. Forget about Jesus' preexistence even in his glorious status he is not God himself and God is always one and only as per Jn 5:44. By jumbling of different verses we are not proving any thing rather we are complicating things. If Jesus was really conceived where is the question of preexistence? If Jesus was and is really human like you and me where is the question of preexistence?I can only get that there is only one God and Jesus is His son after birth as Jesus and Jesus is the Messiah who was promised in the Old testament to the Israelites to fulfill all God's promises to them. I repeat God will not share His glory with any even Jesus.
How can you prove Jesus beyond these truths?
Please think over
Adam
I am a Trinitarian. I am providing the information to anyone doing research in this area.blessings,
KenAs far as your saying ” I repeat God will not share His glory with any even Jesus.”
This is false. John 17:5 (ESV) And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.God will not share His glory with any other. Isaiah 42:8
Jesus (not an angel) shares His Father's glory. John 17:5
Therefore Jesus is God'Glory Belongs to God
Much like your worship of Jesus in vain, whereas Jesus himself tells you otherwise, read John 17:3, especially the words “THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus WHOM YOU HAVE SENT”, this makes the worship of Jesus a worship of a FALSE god since there is THE ONLY TRUE GOD WHO SENT JESUS.
This argument was put up by a Muslim in a message board and when I studied the 17th chapter of John I found that Jesus Himself made it clear in John 17:5 that He had glory with God from the beginning of the world.
These are the words spoken by Jesus Himself: –
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
“I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.(John 17:3-5)
Does it not clearly say that Jesus was with God before the world was…and that He is the same God? God of Bible has three personalities though He is the same ONE God.
1.
God Himself
2.His Word(Jesus)
3.His Spirit(Holy Spirit)
Bible says in Isaiah 42:8, “I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.”
We see from the above verse that all glory belongs to God that He can not give His glory to anybody nor will He share His glory with anyone. But we read in John 17:1, “Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You.” We see that Jesus is asking the father to glorify Him.
No one can share the glory of God but Jesus is asking Father to glorify Him. Why? When we read John 17:5 we see that Jesus said further, “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
Jesus made it clear that He was from the beginning and that He was with God and that He had the glory with His Father. We read in John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
It is because Jesus is the same God and that is why He had the glory with the Father. Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are three personalities but the same one God. All glory and honor belongs to One True God, Jesus as we read in John 17:11, “Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.” http://bibleandquran.org/isjesusgod/ch1d.htm
blessings,
KenIn regard to your saying “I am open to receive any truth if proved beyond doubt.”
This is so subjective… and besides there is very very little, especially when it comes to the metaphysical, that can be proved “beyond doubt”……. many will say that you cannot even prove God's existence itself beyond doubt, proving beyond doubt all the beliefs/propositions concerning the nature of Christ that we are discussing is something no one can do for you, it is impossible, since only you can decide what is beyond doubt, and since this is a totally subjective venture, insisting that I prove something beyond doubt to you is simply asking too much. I cannot even know what “beyond doubt” means to you subjectively, probably you do not even know, in every instance, what constitutes the solidity of a belief which is itself beyond doubt. Asking me to prove something to you which is “beyond doubt” is simply impossible, for you can, whenever you like, decide that there is some measure of doubt in whatever belief you do not care for (eg the preexistence of the Son) and thus dismiss it simply, and for no other reason, then because you have “doubts”. Epistemologically this is asking too much of anyone. I can only share with you what I have read and considered and contemplated which has led me to think and believe and consider what I think to be true, and that is sufficient for my own beliefs. I am under no obligation (especially since such an obligation would be impossible to fulfill) to prove ANYTHING to you “beyond doubt”, because I simply CANNOT prove anything to you “beyond doubt”.
blessings,
KenHi E,
You said“As far as your saying ” I repeat God will not share His glory with any even Jesus.”
This is false. John 17:5 (ESV) And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.God will not share His glory with any other. Isaiah 42:8
Jesus (not an angel) shares His Father's glory. John 17:5
Therefore Jesus is God”This shows the weakness of human logic.
Jesus had glory with God.
He did not have the glory OF God.Ken How about Ephesians 4:6 It says that the Father is above all. We came out of the Catholic Church and I taught four of our Children the trinity doctrine unfortunately. In John Jesus also says my Father is greater then I. They are not equal, which the trinity doctrine teaches. You also will not find one time that trinity is in our Bible.
As far as preexisting of Jesus goes, IMO He did excist before the world was.
Rev.3:14 says this ” These says the Amen, the Faithful Witness THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.'
Col. 1:15-18 He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that that are on earth…….all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist.
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the church, who is the beginning, the frstborn of the dead,
that in all He may have preeminence.
Prominence means that He is first in all. Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the dead. Now He sits on the right hand of the Father on the throne.
Prove all things. I have so I believe in the preexisting of Jesus and that the trinity doctrine is wrong.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (epistemaniac @ July 24 2008,23:28) A few other perspectives….. “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, the One ever being (existing) in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him” (John 1:18, literal rendering from the Greek).
Since Jesus is the Word (John 1:1ff) and the only begotten Son, (John 1:14) and since John tells us (1:18) that the only begotten Son (Jesus) was always existing in the bosom of the Father, then there never was a time when Jesus, the Son did not exist.
Hello E,Welcome here!
Regarding the verse John 1:18, the greek does NOT say the only begotten Son. It does say “the only begotten God”. That comes from “monogenhv qeov” in the greek. See the greek words below:John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The same verse in the Greek:
qeon oudeiv ewraken (5758) pwpote; monogenhv qeov o wn (5752) eiv ton kolpon tou patrov ekeinov echghsato.http://www.studylight.org/isb….1&ncc=1
Also, the term “is” does not denote eternal existence. I believe the Greek word is what is called an historical present.
So, the translation that you used for John 1:18, I do not believe it is a literal rendering from the Greek. The word “Son” is not in the Greek in this verse.
God bless,
LUHi LU,
There is manuscript variation here as a look at the NIV on this site shows18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
Footnotes:
John 1:18 Or the Only Begotten
John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) SonQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2008,19:53) Hi LU,
There is manuscript variation here as a look at the NIV on this site shows18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
Footnotes:
John 1:18 Or the Only Begotten
John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son
Hi Nick,
That rendering does not account for the “genes” part of “monogenes”. Both parts are needed, we can't just choose to ignore the “genes” part.
LUHi LU,
Monogenes goes with either SON or GOD.
Monogenes SON is far more common in usage.
We cannot choose a manuscript variation to justify a verse.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2008,20:11) Hi LU,
Monogenes goes with either SON or GOD.
Monogenes SON is far more common in usage.
We cannot choose a manuscript variation to justify a verse.
Hi Nick,
It goes with “God” in this verse and not son because “son” isn't in the original Greek.
LUNick,
We need to consider what we have to refer to and realize when there are differences we must dig deeper because there is one truth.Quote (Lightenup @ July 25 2008,22:12) Hi Golla,
Thank you for your response to my quest. Now another question for you…Do you see in this passage below of Mark 12:28-34 that it speaks of there being one Lord and that one Lord is God?
Hi Sis Kathi,
Thanks for asking me this question and here are some thoughts on LORD and Lord;Is there a difference between “LORD” and “Lord” in the scriptures?
A: Yes. When “the LORD” appears in all capital letters in the Old Testament of the King James translation of the Bible, it is almost always the Hebrew word “Jehovah” or YHWH, God's proper name. Jehovah(YHWH) means “the existing one”. The KJV translators did not spell out the name Jehovah(YHWH), but replaced it with “the LORD” 99.86% of the more than 6000 times that it occurs in the Old Testament. This translation may give some readers the impression that God almost always refers to Himself by the title, “the LORD”, when actually, He usually refers to Himself as “Jehovah”. In every case that I know of, “the LORD” in the Bible refers to God's proper name(YHWH). This term is not used in the Greek portion of scriptures commonly referred to as the “New Testament”.
In the scriptures, the title, “Lord”, not in all caps, may or may not be referring to God. Readers should look at the context of how it is used. In the new testament, the Greek word is “kurios”, which means “master” or “the one to whom the speaker belongs”. “Lord” is used as a title of honor and respect. It usually refers to Jesus in the new testament but not always. For example, Festus calls King Agrippa “lord” (kurios) in Acts 25:26. 1 Peter 3:6 tells how Sarah called Abraham “lord” (kurios). In these verses, the translators left “lord” in lower case.
In the old testament, the Hebrew word “adonay” or “ADONAI” is used at a title of deep respect and translated “LORD”. It usually refers to God. Also, the Hebrew word “adown” or “ADONI” is often used at a title of deep respect and translated “Lord” as in Genesis 23:6 where the children of Heth called Abraham “lord” or in Genesis 18:12 where Sara called Abraham “lord”. Often, “adown” is translated as “master” instead of “lord”. It usually refers to a man in a position of respect, but may occasionally be used in reference to God.
So Sis I think you appreciate the differece between these two words LORD and Lord mentioned in different english translations. Jesus is mentioned as Lord not the “LORD” God. I think you people are confused with two bliefs; one the Trinity and the other Arianism they are dead against each other. The christian history has many pages in the past. If you want you can see for your self. God should be understood from Jewish point of not on pagan beliefs where we make more than one God by calling Jesus a begotten God. Please take care when you interpret scriptures in the light of Jewish monotheism. I hope you know better Hebrew and Greek.
You can see for your self that there is difference between the words the LORD and Lord which are ADONAI and ADONI in Hebrew.
Thanks and blessings
Adam
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