Preexistence

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2008,00:09)

Hi LU, Compare Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Hi Nick,
Yes, good verse. The NET Bible refers to this verse as the reason it translates as it does.

Here are several translations:

NET © and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, 1 everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world 2 in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed. 3

NIV ©

biblegateway Rev 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast�all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

NASB ©

biblegateway Rev 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

NLT ©

biblegateway Rev 13:8
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb who was killed before the world was made.

MSG ©

biblegateway Rev 13:8
Everyone on earth whose name was not written from the world's foundation in the slaughtered Lamb's Book of Life will worship the Beast.

BBE ©

SABDAweb Rev 13:8
And all who are on the earth will give him worship, everyone whose name has not been from the first in the book of life of the Lamb who was put to death.

NRSV ©

bibleoremusRev 13:8
and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.

NKJV ©

biblegateway Rev 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I agree with the NET Bible here. It seems that translators have disagreed on this.

Take care,
LU

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Kathi,
You mean to say that the Lamb was not slain before the foundations of the world in the Master plan of God Almighty? God sees the end from the beginning. Is it so difficult to God to have a book in the name of Lamb who will take birth in due time through a woman as per Gal 4:4. A Lamb(sacrificial animal) a mortal being can not exist before its birth. Therefore I don't believe in any preexistence of Jesus.
Love to you
Adam

[Irene]

WHO IS JESUS?

Jesus had asked his disciples this question once.
Matt. 16:13 “ When Jesus came into the coast of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, saying, whom do men say that I the son of man am?”
v. 15 “He saith unto them, but whom say ye that I am?”
v. 16 “And Simon Peter answered and said, thou art the Christ, the son of the living God.”
v. 17 “And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jo’na: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
This last verse tells us more than just the fact that God revealed to Peter who Jesus was, it lets us know where understanding of heavenly things come from, God. It should teach us, that with out God’s Holy Spirit we would not understand his word, the Bible, except the historical data contained in it. Hear is what Paul says.
1 Cor. 2:9 “But as it is written, eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
v. 10 “But God has revealed them unto us (believers) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
v. 11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man but the Spirit of God.”
v. 12 “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”
Have you ever ask yourself, why are there so many denominations? Should not all ministers teach the same? They all teach from the same bible, do they not? They are all taught by the same Holy Spirit, are they not?
1 Cor. 1:10 “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (teaching).”
Have you ever ask yourself, why do we call the Father, Father? And why do we call Jesus his son? Have you ever checked the definition for Father and Son in you dictionary? I have.
Father: He who gives life to the son.
Son: He who receives life from the Father.
One other observation, shouldn’t it be obvious to assume that the father is older than the son? Why is Jesus called the firstborn? This one should be easy, if you have children, you have a firstborn, boy or girl doesn’t matter. Jesus did not become his Father’s son when he was born of Mary; because that was not the moment he received life.
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Why is this verse so confusing to so many people? The Apostle John is not the only one that referred to the Son of God as the “Word” of the O.T., “Logos” in Greek.
Hear are Jesus own words.
Rev. 19:13 “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God.”
John knew that Jesus was the “Spokesman” for God, the “Word”, because of what he had told them.
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which has sent me, hath born witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
Jesus was the Word, the Spokesperson for the Father, hear on earth. For anyone to think that the “Word” was just a thought in the father’s mind, and became the “Word” when he spoke it, is just plain ridiculous. It would than have to be understood as though God spoke his thought into Mary, and it became his son. That would also mean that, when the son had finished his work hear on earth, he was asking the Father to become a thought again in the Father’s mind, right?
John 17:4 “I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
v. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
Does it not make you wonder where our scholars and theologians get these glorious ideas? Did you notice how verse 5 ended? Before the world was. Jesus is telling us that he existed long before the world was, long before he became one of us, or have you forgotten?
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or power: all things were created by him, and for him.”
Also, how can we ignore the fact that God sent his son that he gave his son?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…”
v. 17 “For God sent not his Son onto the world…”
You cannot give; you cannot send, what you don’t have. Pay close attention to the next two verses.
Luke 8:27 “And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils a long time, and ware no cloth, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.”
v. 28 “When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.”
These were demons, they recognized Jesus as the Son of God, they had known him from the time of creation. They were not created demons, they were angels until they sided with Lucifer and rebelled against God. They had shouted for joy when the Son created the earth.
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”
And then there are those that go to the other extreme and say, Jesus had no beginning, he always existed with the Father as a coequal. Read the next three scriptures carefully.
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”
Col. 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image (Jesus) of him (the Father) that created him.”
Rev. 3:14 “…These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Every parent knows what a firstborn is. Does anyone not know what an image
is? An image is something you make after something or some one, it is a replica, could be
a statue or painting. Who is the one that created him? Would you agree it is the Creator? Why would Jesus say himself, he is the beginning of God’s creation? Do we think he was lying? So, after reading all these scriptures, what is keeping us from believing the truth, tradition maybe?
Jesus was made in the image of the Father, exactly what is this image? Spirit in nature. Adam was created in the image of God.
Gen. 1:26 “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
But Adam was created flesh not spirit, a different nature; so what image was Adam created in? What is it that the Father, the Son and man have in common? A mind, Paul calls it a spirit.
1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him…”
God is a thinker, a planer, a builder and creator, and so are we, God made us that way, but most importantly, he gave us a mind to communicate with him. What animal can do that?
Jesus was not only the first to receive life, but he was also the first to live again after death.
Col. 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
I believe, anyone that reads Col. 1:15 and 18, and does not believe what it says, it’s not because it is to complicate, it is a simple case of rejecting truth. Preeminence is to be the first in everything. You can read about the beginning of Gods creation, his Son, in the book of Proverbs; it is easiest understood when you read it in the JAMES MOFFAT translation.

Prov. 8:22 “ The Eternal formed me first of his creation, first of all his works in days of old;”
v. 23 “ I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when earth began;”
v. 24 “ I was born when there were no abysses, when there were no fountains full of water;”
v. 25 “ ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born,”
v. 26 “ when earth and fields were not created, nor the very first clods of the World.”
v. 27 “ When he set the heaven up, I was there, when he drew the Vault o’er the abyss,”
v. 28 “ when he made the clouds firm overhead, when he fixed the fountains of the deep.”
v. 29 “ when he set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundations for the earth;”
v. 30 “ I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.”
Anyone who claims that these verses refer to wisdom obviously has none of his own. Read what Paul is teaching the saints.
Acts 13:33 “God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalms, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”
You just read the account of the first time God raised up his Son, Prov. 8:22-30. The second time was from the dead. You have to be blind if you can’t see who is being talked about hear. That is exactly why we read in,
John 1:1 “ In the beginning was the Word… (Jesus was the Word).”
When we read in,
Gen. 1:1 “ In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth…”
We have no problem understanding that the earth or the universe for that matter did not always existed, that they had a beginning; why then do we give “ beginning“ a different meaning when it comes to the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Do we think we dishonor Jesus by believing the truth? Or do we think we honor Jesus more by raising him to the same level of his Father? The Father has already raised the son to the highest position; if we try to do more we dishonor the Father.
Someone called Jesus good once.
Luke 18:18 “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus rebuked him by saying,
v. 19 “And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.”
If Jesus were God he would have never denied being good. That of course does not imply that he wasn’t.
Heb. 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down
on the right hand of God.” (Highest position of honor)
We acknowledge the fact that Jesus came to save us, but we also say that he was both flesh and spirit. Why is that false? It would have made Jesus a mixture of two natures; he would have been a hybrid. God hates perversion of his creation; he destroyed the world with a flood once because of it.
Gen. 6:1 “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born unto them.”
v. 2 “That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
they took them wives of all which they chose.”
v. 4 “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
v. 7 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the
earth…”
v. 12 “And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.”
These are not Satan’s demons that corrupted God’s way, these are angels that looked down from heaven and were tempted by the beauty of the woman. Read what Jude and Peter have to say,
Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
v. 7 “Even as Sodom and Gomor’rha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh…”
2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
These angels that sinned, corrupting God’s creation, apparently committed a greater sin than Satan and his demons. God locked them up in a prison, and would not allow them to roam the world. God was angry; he did not create humans to become half spirit, or spirit beings to become half humans. God created all after their kind,
Gen. 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
v. 24 “And God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, and
creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.”
v. 25 “And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind,
and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
After their kind meaning their nature. Paul gives us this explanation;
1 Cor. 15:39 “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”
v. 40 “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the
celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”
God created all things for His glory. So then, why did God spared Noah and his family?
Gen. 6:9 “These are the generations of Noah; Noah was a just man and perfect in his
generation, and Noah walked with God.”
What does “perfect in his generations” mean? Noah and his family were the only pure humans left; all others flesh had been corrupted. To mix two kinds creates a hybrid and is an insult to God. The bible does tell us that Jesus was not a mixture of two natures,
Heb. 2:16 “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the
seed of Abraham.(flesh)”
Jesus came to ransom Adam from the grave and all of us. Adam was flesh, and Jesus had to be of the same nature as the one he was coming to redeem. And only someone that was not affected by Adam’s sin could accomplish this. Adam’s sin made him unclean,
Job 14:4 “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?”
Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,”
Jesus said he came to ransom many.
Matt. 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
What is a ransom? During wartime prisoners of war were ransomed for other prisoners of war, it was an exchange. Jesus came to trade places with Adam. Jesus took Adams sin, and placed it on himself, freeing Adam from the grave, and taking his place in the grave. At his resurrection, God gave Jesus back his true nature, spirit, the flesh body of Christ remained in the grave, and so the penalty for sin was paid. God of course disposed of the body for obvious reasons. People have worshiped religious objects for centuries. Crosses with bone fragments of saints are especially sought after. Many Christians consider the shroud of Turin the most holy object, worthy of worship. Can you imagine how people would have treaded the body of Christ, had God left him in the tomb?
We are all sinners and deserve death but for now we die for Adam’s sin; or how would you explain the death of infants and little children that know no sin. If we were to die for our sins now, then these li
ttle ones should live at least until they have committed a sin. Our only hope was in Jesus Christ who was not of our nature and not effected by the curse of death. God changed his spirit body into a human body; this change did not affect his mind, for he knew who he was, where he came from and why he had come. Jesus knew about his mission from creation,
Rev. 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.”
Although tempted in all things he remained sinless, it was his body that took on our sins, and he became sin for us. In his spirit, his mind, in his heart, he remained without sin.
2 Cor. 5:21 “For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.”
Failure was not an option; it would have meant the end of his existence as well as all of ours. Jesus experienced all the things we do in our life, real thirst, real hunger, real pain and death.
Heb. 2:18 “For that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them
that are tempted.”
Heb. 4:15 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Jesus endured it all because his mind was on the eternal not on the temporal.
Heb. 12:2 “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that
was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the
right hand of the throne of God.”
Jesus died and was placed in a tomb, and right hear is were ministers run into a contradiction by what they teach. They say that Jesus was not really dead, that instead he went to “hell”, and preached to the spirits, using this scripture.
1 Pet. 3:19 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.”
First of all, to say that Jesus went to “hell” is an assumption; the scripture does not say that. Second, to say that these were the souls of deceased sinners, is an assumption too, the scripture does not say that either. Third, to say that you are alive after you die, claiming you have an immortal soul is in total opposition to the word of God. Finally, assuming Jesus went to hell, what prevented him from being tormented by the flames? So, who are these spirits, and what is there prison? It seems that the scripture that gives us the answer has been completely overlooked, or ignored.
v. 20 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing…”
These spirits are spirit beings, angels, which were disobedient in that they married woman, and produced hybrids. They are the once responsible for the flood, which I referred to a few pages back. Read Jude 6 and 7 and 2 Pet. 2:4 again. It was during the construction of the ark, in the days of Noah, that these spirits, angels, were preached to, told what would await them in the day of final judgment, but they are not being tormented by flames now.
Jesus died; trusting the Father he would raise him up, after three days and three nights, God did raise him up. Jesus was given back his true nature, spirit. His flesh body had taken on all of our sins, was no longer needed and God disposed of it. And why should that have surprised any one, that his body was gone? God did tell us ahead of time, he would not allow his body to decay.
Ps. 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).”
And Paul does explain,
2 Cor. 5:16 “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”
Jesus no longer looked the same, which also explains why all his friends did not recognize him by sight.
John 20:15 “Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), Woman, why weepest thou? Whom
seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have born him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.”
John 21:4 “But when the morning now was come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the
disciples knew not that it was Jesus.”
Luke 24:15 “And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned,
Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.”
v. 16 “But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”
Thomas became a believer because Jesus showed him the wounds, not because he recognized him, John 20:26-29. Jesus could not appear in the same likeness as before, that body had taken on all of our sins, it was the exchange for Adam, it had to remain dead, because that is the penalty for sin, death, Rom. 6:23. Jesus in his spirit body does not look anything like his flesh body that is why all paintings and portraits of him are wrong; including the Shroud of Turin. Had God allowed an image of his son to appear on that shroud, He would have violated his own second commandment.
Forty days after his resurrection Jesus ascended to heaven. God accepted his sacrifice for all of us, and crowned him with glory, a glorious and divine spirit body and immortality.
John 5:26 “For as the Father has life in himself (immortality); so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (immortality).”
And raised him to the highest position of honor.
Eph. 1:20 “Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.”
This was the joy for which he endured the shame and the cross, Heb. 12:2. There is so much the bible wants to tell us, if we were only willing to listen. For instant, how could the Father have given him immortality, if he had it before? How could he have been raised to the highest position of honor, if he had occupied it before? Or, how can he inherit all things, which he already owns?
Heb. 1:2 “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he has appointed heir of all things…”
How could Jesus have been made so much better than the angels?
Heb. 1:4 “Being made so much better than the angels.”
If Jesus was God, could he have been made any more perfect?
Heb. 2:10 “…to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering.”
Had Jesus been God, and immortal, he simply could not have died for us that is what immortality means, death is impossible.
The fact that Jesus rose from the dead is our hope, because he has the keys to unlock the doors to our graves,
Rev. 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (grave) and of death.”
1 Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
v. 23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
Referring to the first resurrection. His coming want be anything like what we
have been told. There want be any visible signs or sounds, which will make us look up. We will not see the dead raised. Jesus himself told us that his coming would be like a thief, and so did Paul.
Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, last he walk naked, and they see his shame.”
1 Thes. 5:2 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so kometh as a thief in the night.”
The comparison with a thief is to make a point; his coming will not be noticed.
John 5:28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the
graves shall hear his voice.”
v. 29 “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection; and they
that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
For many people that have done great evil to others, it may very well be a resurrection of
damnation. All will be resurrected with the same thinking, the same attitudes as when they died.
Ezek. 16:53 “When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them.”
v. 54 “That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.”
v. 55 “When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”
Ezekiel is saying, not only will Israel and Judah be restored, resurrected, but Sodom and Samaria, meaning all evil nations will be restored to their former estate as well. All will awake from their grave, thinking they have only been sleeping a few hours.
All will be required to repent and to ask for forgiveness, there may be those that have done such evil deeds that they can’t or wont repent, nor ask for forgiveness; their fait is sealed. The resurrection of the dead will occur during the thousand-year reign of Christ, the Millennium. God designed this period so that all mankind would have the opportunity to learn the truth and repent. It will be the time when Christ will judge the world. But judgment does not come before a trial. We read in,
1 Peter 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and
if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God.”
Judgment means teaching, testing, and trials, proving you are worthy to receive the gift of God, eternal life. The house of God is his Church, the body of Christ, the Saints. Judgment was on them first because they would reign with Christ. For all others their time of judgment will be during the millennium. The end of them that obey not the gospel during the millennium is also mentioned in,
Acts 3:23 “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
shall be destroyed from among his people.”
Which of course is the second death, eternal death, from which there is no resurrection. This raises a question; who has your allegiance, your Church, your Minister or God? Remember,
Is. 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is
because there is no light (understanding) in them.”
Also keep in mind what Paul says in,
1 Thes. 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
It is more than good advice!

I know this a rather lon article by my Husband, but it does explain Jesus pretty good.
Peace and Love Irene

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 22 2008,17:58)

Hi Sis Kathi, You mean to say that the Lamb was not slain before the foundations of the world in the Master plan of God Almighty? God sees the end from the beginning. Is it so difficult to God to have a book  in the name of Lamb who will take birth in due time through a woman as per Gal 4:4. A Lamb(sacrificial animal) a mortal being can not exist before its birth. Therefore I don't believe in any preexistence of Jesus. Love to you Adam

Hi GM,
Cannot?
Flesh cannot
but many beings are not flesh.

Nothing is impossible for God.

Lk1
36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

[gollamudi]

Yes, Jesus birth was a miracle I fully agree with that view, but that doesn't mean some preexistent being entered Mary's womb. This is against the law of conception.
Thanks
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
What law is this that restricts God?

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Good stuff but..
Demons are not angels.
As you say the angels who sinned are in chains.

Did Jesus preach to the angels in prison ?
1Peter3
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Seems rather it was those not saved by Noah's ark..

The body that Jesus showed to the disciples was flesh and bones as he testified and still bore the marks of his suffering as Thomas would now readily agree. It was not his heavenly body, being flesh and bone, as flesh cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor15]

No mention of another chance to repent after resurrection for sinners in scripture. It is not written that men will be raised to be educated unto repentance during the millenium that I have found. Judgement means judgement too .

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2008,21:34)

Hi GM, What law is this that restricts God?

God's own law of conception.

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 22 2008,01:58)

Hi Sis Kathi, You mean to say that the Lamb was not slain before the foundations of the world in the Master plan of God Almighty? God sees the end from the beginning. Is it so difficult to God to have a book  in the name of Lamb who will take birth in due time through a woman as per Gal 4:4. A Lamb(sacrificial animal) a mortal being can not exist before its birth. Therefore I don't believe in any preexistence of Jesus. Love to you Adam

Adam,
I mean that Rev 13:8 should NOT say:

13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.KJV

I believe that it SHOULD say:
13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, 26 everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world 27 in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed. 28 NET

I am NOT saying that Christ's death wasn't planned from the foundation of the world. I believe that it was. The verb “slain” was written in the perfect aspect in the above verse in Greek. That means that the action was brought to completion but has effects carrying into the present. We know that the killing of Christ wasn't brought to completion before the foundation of the world. It was brought to completion on the cross when He was about 33 years old. Therefore, that is another reason that the KJV is inaccurate in this case. IMO

Blessings, LU

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 22 2008,22:07)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2008,21:34) Hi GM, What law is this that restricts God? God's own law of conception.

Hi GM,
Where is this natural law written that restricts a God of miraculous power?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2008,04:59)

Quote (gollamudi @ July 22 2008,01:58) Hi Sis Kathi, You mean to say that the Lamb was not slain before the foundations of the world in the Master plan of God Almighty? God sees the end from the beginning. Is it so difficult to God to have a book  in the name of Lamb who will take birth in due time through a woman as per Gal 4:4. A Lamb(sacrificial animal) a mortal being can not exist before its birth. Therefore I don't believe in any preexistence of Jesus. Love to you Adam Adam, I mean that Rev 13:8 should NOT say: 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.KJV I believe that it SHOULD say: 13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, 26  everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world 27  in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed. 28 NET I am NOT saying that Christ's death wasn't planned from the foundation of the world.  I believe that it was. The verb “slain” was written in the perfect aspect in the above verse in Greek.  That means that the action was brought to completion but has effects carrying into the present.  We know that the killing of Christ wasn't brought to completion before the foundation of the world.  It was brought to completion on the cross when He was about 33 years old.  Therefore, that is another reason that the KJV is inaccurate in this case.  IMO Blessings, LU

amen

[Irene]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2008,21:48)

Hi Georg, Good stuff but.. Demons are not angels. As you say the angels who sinned are in chains. Did Jesus preach to the angels in prison ? 1Peter3 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.   Seems rather it was those not saved by Noah's ark..   The body that Jesus showed to the disciples was flesh and bones as he testified and still bore the marks of his suffering as Thomas would now readily agree. It was not his heavenly body, being flesh and bone, as flesh cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor15]   No mention of another chance to repent after resurrection for sinners in scripture. It is not written that men will be raised to be educated unto repentance during the millenium that I have found. Judgement means judgement too .

Nick The 1/3 of Angels that went with Lucifer are they not called Demons now? They were Angels at one time, where they not?
Peace and LOve Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi Irene,
I expect you will show us the scriptural basis for these ideas soon?

[NickHassan]

Hi Irene,
I have moved the discussion to the appropriate thread.

[Irene]

Nick! Rev.12:9 So that great Dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi Irene,
Was this which was written after Jesus's death
recording the future or the past?

[Veritas ad Caritas]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2008,21:48)

Hi Georg, Good stuff but.. Demons are not angels. As you say the angels who sinned are in chains. Did Jesus preach to the angels in prison ? 1Peter3 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.   Seems rather it was those not saved by Noah's ark..   The body that Jesus showed to the disciples was flesh and bones as he testified and still bore the marks of his suffering as Thomas would now readily agree. It was not his heavenly body, being flesh and bone, as flesh cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor15]   No mention of another chance to repent after resurrection for sinners in scripture. It is not written that men will be raised to be educated unto repentance during the millenium that I have found. Judgement means judgement too .

Hi re the angels and Demons for those who accept it, the Book of Enoch makes it very Clear.
Their are angels (unholy/fallen) and Demons which are seperate but connected. The angels are Gods creation and the Demons are the spirits of their physical offspring that God destroyed in the Flood. –
-Short version finished-
-Extended version continues-
They were tolerated for a while on earth but as they became more corrupt and then began dominating corrupting and destroying humans they were destroyed despite their pleas to God. It was through the Fallen angels that many of the early technologies of Iron Bronze use of plants for 'medicinal' remedies making of weapons of war Astrological knowledge etc was taught to a much more simple living human race.
The Book of Enoch details clearly the various regions of Hades the Grave and their is a place for 4 different types of soul/spirit. (Spirits in Prison).
It indicates God seperates the unrighteous dead from the unforgiven dead who have fair grievence that their lives were wrongly cut short before choosing or rejecting God was possible. They will be terminated but not tormented forever.
The Angels that Sinned are chained up kept in Prison until Judgment day The spirits of their offspring they had (when as in Genesis it says the sons of God came and got with so to speak the sons of men) remain free in the world till the end of time and bring trouble on mankind as they bodyless, not fully human in spirit, envy the blessed human race and want to bring it to choose the way of their Angel progenetors and have us deny Gods authority and seek equality with God something to be grasped. It is also the case that a portion of Satan and his angels are by allowance free still to stand as our accusers until the judgment day. The whole horde of Hell will be released for a while at the end before their final Judgment as recorded in Revelation. Demons are their Offspring that they had with human Women (This is from the Book of Enoch That is the Book quoted in Jude and alluded to elsewhere in the Bible accepted in the Ethiopian Canon and by the early Church. It predicted Christ the Flood Moses the Bible itself amongst many other things Clearly I have sympathies that it is canonical before its exclusion in the 4th century or so. It was not excluded explicitly at Nicea nor by Jews but ignored. Jews apparently found some content too telling of their failings. I am still to hear a good basis for it being dated to recent generations. before the Dead sea scrolls it was claimed to have first been written in the first centuries AD, then that was revised to the second temple period but that is without as I see any any proof against its prior existence. I believe it is very very likely (as the Ethiopian Church that was kept seperate from the Roman Catholic that excluded this book also think); the oldest human writing, dating to before the Flood. It makes alot clear on that topic too. I think it is the Chassis of the Car being the Bible).

One more thing on Pre existence of Christ.
To “BECOME flesh and dwell among us”…
Well to “become” it infers progressing from one stagee to another.
It doesn't say “appeared” though to us he appeared as written elsewhere in the NT.
But as a seed “becomes” a flower and flowers don't just “appear” So Christ became flesh and didn&t appear with no prior existence.
Enoch calls Christ the Son of Man and explains his being in Heaven with God, at least (whatever you think of the Book) hundreds of Years BC and talks of his role in Judging the earth etc and the events before his coming and the time of his coming, right down to the Generation number.
Trinitarian or otherwise this book that predates Christ gets right his coming and tells us he was with God before his pre existing form becoming flesh. This book makes clear all sorts of things that are hazy in the Bible. For example Last days (for how long it has been since Christ) makes sense when you see the divisions of history set out in Enoch.

[Irene]

Quote (Veritas ad Caritas @ July 23 2008,11:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2008,21:48) Hi Georg, Good stuff but.. Demons are not angels. As you say the angels who sinned are in chains. Did Jesus preach to the angels in prison ? 1Peter3 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.   Seems rather it was those not saved by Noah's ark..   The body that Jesus showed to the disciples was flesh and bones as he testified and still bore the marks of his suffering as Thomas would now readily agree. It was not his heavenly body, being flesh and bone, as flesh cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor15]   No mention of another chance to repent after resurrection for sinners in scripture. It is not written that men will be raised to be educated unto repentance during the millenium that I have found. Judgement means judgement too . Hi re the angels and Demons for those who accept it, the Book of Enoch makes it very Clear. Their are angels (unholy/fallen) and Demons which are seperate but connected. The angels are Gods creation and the Demons are the spirits of their physical offspring that God destroyed in the Flood. – -Short version finished- -Extended version continues- They were tolerated for a while on earth but as they became more corrupt and then began dominating corrupting and destroying humans they were destroyed despite their pleas to God. It was through the Fallen angels that many of the early technologies of Iron Bronze use of plants for 'medicinal' remedies making of weapons of war Astrological knowledge etc was taught to a much more simple living  human race. The Book of Enoch details clearly the various regions of Hades the Grave and their is a place for 4 different types of soul/spirit. (Spirits in Prison). It indicates God seperates the unrighteous dead from the unforgiven dead who have fair grievence that their lives were wrongly cut short before choosing or rejecting God was possible. They will be terminated but not tormented forever.   The Angels that Sinned are chained up kept in Prison until Judgment day The spirits of their offspring they had (when as in Genesis it says the sons of God came and got with so to speak the sons of men) remain free in the world till the end of time and bring trouble on mankind as they bodyless, not fully human in spirit, envy the blessed human race and want to bring it to choose the way of their Angel progenetors and have us deny Gods authority and seek equality with God something to be grasped. It is also the case that a portion of  Satan and his angels are by allowance free still to stand as our accusers until the judgment day. The whole horde of Hell will be released for a while at the end before their final Judgment as recorded in Revelation. Demons are their Offspring that they had with human Women  (This is from the Book of Enoch That is the Book quoted in Jude and alluded to elsewhere in the Bible accepted in the Ethiopian Canon and by the early Church. It predicted Christ the Flood Moses the Bible itself amongst many other things  Clearly I have sympathies that it is canonical before its exclusion in the 4th century or so. It was not excluded explicitly at Nicea nor by Jews but ignored. Jews apparently found some content too telling of their failings. I am still to hear a good basis for it being dated to recent generations. before the Dead sea scrolls it was claimed to have first been written in the first centuries AD, then that was revised to the second temple period but that is without as I see any any proof against its prior existence. I believe it is very very likely (as the Ethiopian Church that was kept seperate from the Roman Catholic that excluded this book also think); the oldest human writing, dating to before the Flood. It makes alot clear on that topic too. I think it is the Chassis of the Car being the Bible). One more thing on Pre existence of Christ. To “BECOME flesh and dwell among us”… Well to “become” it infers progressing from one stagee to another. It doesn't say “appeared” though to us he appeared as written elsewhere in the NT. But as a seed “becomes” a flower and flowers don't just “appear” So Christ became flesh and didn&t appear with no prior existence. Enoch calls Christ the Son of Man and explains his being in Heaven with God, at least (whatever you think of the Book) hundreds of Years BC and talks of his role in Judging the earth etc and the events before his coming and the time of his coming, right down to the Generation number. Trinitarian or otherwise this book that predates Christ gets right his coming and tells us he was with God before his pre existing form becoming flesh. This book makes clear all sorts of things that are hazy in the Bible. For example Last days (for how long it has been since Christ) makes sense when you see the divisions of history set out in Enoch.

I am sorry but I do not agree with you when it comes to the preexisting of Jesus.
Rev. 3:14 tells us this
….: These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness the Beginning of all creation.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth…….all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all consist.
verse 18 And He is the head of the Church who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in all things He will have preeminence.

He was the firstborn of all creation and He was the first to be resurrected. First in all that is what preeminence means.
Peace and Love Irene

[Veritas ad Caritas]

Irene
What you have just shown is like me that Christ existed before his incarnation (Birth)
That is all I am arguing.
I agree with Revelation that “by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth…….all things were created through Him and for Him.” That is ALL THINGS lets say stuff creatures stars and the like… would you agree with that? My position does not cause a problem if you are a Trinity rejecter.
I am Very on the fence on that topic too.

He existed with the Father before he became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Do you agree with that?

He existed with God throughout the creation of the earth and the angels etc. Do you agree with that?
Joh 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Then they wanted to Kill him for saying I AM. Now without trying to argue whether that makes him actual God or not…. It clearly proves he existed Pre his Incarnation which I think is the main point of this discussion. (or that he was a liar):p

[Irene]

Quote (Veritas ad Caritas @ July 23 2008,14:46)

Irene What you have just shown is like me that Christ existed before his incarnation (Birth) That is all I am arguing. I agree with Revelation that “by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth…….all things were created through Him and for Him.” That is ALL THINGS lets say stuff creatures stars and the like… would you agree with that? My position does not cause a problem if you are a Trinity rejecter. I am Very on the fence on that topic too. He existed with the Father before he became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Do you agree with that? He existed with God throughout the creation of the earth and the angels etc.  Do you agree with that? Joh 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then they wanted to Kill him for saying I AM. Now without trying to argue whether that makes him actual God or not…. It clearly proves he existed Pre his Incarnation which I think is the main point of this discussion. (or that he was a liar):p

Yes, now your talking. As far as the trinity is concerned please go on that tread, you will find prove how wrong it is.
Peace and Love Irene

[Author]

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