Preexistence

[gollamudi]

What ?

[dirtyknections]

Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,12:11)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,12:10) Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,12:08) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene No…those are are not the only options…When God said..he alone created the world..he did..thru Jesus..colossians 1:16 tells us so…take this example.. Say I worked at the Ford Motor Company..as the person who designed and built cars…when that car is presented to the world…it will be presented as a creation of Ford Motor Company…and Ford Motor Company alone…althought obviously “Ford” produced the cars thru me… Now apply that to GOD and Christ DK That is not the definition of “by myself” and “alone”. WJ THats the way GOD described it in the bible…

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 11 2008,19:26)

Hi Mandy, Welcome back to this favourite thread of yours. So far I was taking your role to encourage people to share their views on this topic. I am happy you have taken back your role.

Hi Adam,

Actually I'm not “back”, I'm only checking in briefly. And I think you are doing a great job at encouraging the bretheren! Keep up the great work – I'm passing the torch to YOU!

[gollamudi]

Thanks Sis, you are most welcome. Do share when you feel to do so.
Take care of yourself
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 12 2008,17:58)

Quote (gollamudi @ July 11 2008,19:26) Hi Mandy, Welcome back to this favourite thread of yours. So far I was taking your role to encourage people to share their views on this topic. I am happy you have taken back your role. Hi Adam, Actually I'm not “back”, I'm only checking in briefly.  And I think you are doing a great job at encouraging the bretheren!  Keep up the great work – I'm passing the torch to YOU!

Mandy! We are still praying for you and I hope you will soon come back to post more often.
With all my Love Irene

[gollamudi]

Hi All,
Any more thoughts on preexistence of Jesus?

[Lightenup]

Ok, here is a thought for you Adam,

I know that this passage has been discussed but I thought that I would look at the greek verbs and once again the verb in the phrase “I have come down from heaven” is in the active voice. This means that Jesus did the coming down from heaven in response to His Father's sending. A plan cannot do its own coming down from heaven. Active voice of a verb tells us that the subject does the action of the verb as opposed to the passive voice of a verb where the subject receives the action. The Son of God does the action of coming down from heaven as opposed to the Son of God being brought down from heaven. This is in favor of the Son of God existing in a living way before He came down from heaven. I don't know of any other way that the Son of God could have done the action of coming unless He was functioning on His own. The Son of God came down in an active way, not in a passive way like a plan.

38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know ? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.

Now, those who were listening to Him saying this were grumbling amongst themselves because they couldn't believe that He was alive in heaven before He came down from heaven. Jesus said that He was also the bread that came down from heaven, again the active voice for the verb “came”. The Son of God existed, He did the coming, He wasn't brought down like a plan or even a sperm. That would have been in the passive voice.

Something for you to think about Adam.
God bless you,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2008,18:08)

Ok, here is a thought for you Adam, I know that this passage has been discussed but I thought that I would look at the greek verbs and once again the verb in the phrase “I have come down from heaven” is in the active voice.  This means that Jesus did the coming down from heaven in response to His Father's sending.  A plan cannot do its own coming down from heaven.  Active voice of a verb tells us that the subject does the action of the verb as opposed to the passive voice of a verb where the subject receives the action.  The Son of God does the action of coming down from heaven as opposed to the Son of God being brought down from heaven.  This is in favor of the Son of God existing in a living way before He came down from heaven.  I don't know of any other way that the Son of God could have done the action of coming unless He was functioning on His own.  The Son of God came down in an active way, not in a passive way like a plan. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know ? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. Now, those who were listening to Him saying this were grumbling amongst themselves because they couldn't believe that He was alive in heaven before He came down from heaven.  Jesus said that He was also the bread that came down from heaven, again the active voice for the verb “came”.  The Son of God existed, He did the coming, He wasn't brought down like a plan or even a sperm.  That would have been in the passive voice. Something for you to think about Adam. God bless you, Kathi

LU

Good points!

I agree.

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2008,02:08)

Ok, here is a thought for you Adam, I know that this passage has been discussed but I thought that I would look at the greek verbs and once again the verb in the phrase “I have come down from heaven” is in the active voice.  This means that Jesus did the coming down from heaven in response to His Father's sending.  A plan cannot do its own coming down from heaven.  Active voice of a verb tells us that the subject does the action of the verb as opposed to the passive voice of a verb where the subject receives the action.  The Son of God does the action of coming down from heaven as opposed to the Son of God being brought down from heaven.  This is in favor of the Son of God existing in a living way before He came down from heaven.  I don't know of any other way that the Son of God could have done the action of coming unless He was functioning on His own.  The Son of God came down in an active way, not in a passive way like a plan. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know ? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. Now, those who were listening to Him saying this were grumbling amongst themselves because they couldn't believe that He was alive in heaven before He came down from heaven.  Jesus said that He was also the bread that came down from heaven, again the active voice for the verb “came”.  The Son of God existed, He did the coming, He wasn't brought down like a plan or even a sperm.  That would have been in the passive voice. Something for you to think about Adam. God bless you, Kathi

Hi dear Golla,
No response from you on this post???

I pray you are well.
LU

[Not3in1]

Hi Kathi,

It would be one thing if Jesus was said to only have “come down from heaven”, but the scriptures go on more specifically to say that Jesus came from God.

Even more specifically, in John chapter 16 it says that Jesus came from the Father and then entered the world.  The disciples said that when Jesus entered the world it was his beginning.  Think about that, the beginning of Jesus…..

Um, I'm checking back so infrequent these days please do not expect a speedy reply but I wanted to add my thoughts here.  Thanks, Kathi and hope you and your family are doing well.

Love,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 19 2008,13:58)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2008,02:08) Ok, here is a thought for you Adam, I know that this passage has been discussed but I thought that I would look at the greek verbs and once again the verb in the phrase “I have come down from heaven” is in the active voice.  This means that Jesus did the coming down from heaven in response to His Father's sending.  A plan cannot do its own coming down from heaven.  Active voice of a verb tells us that the subject does the action of the verb as opposed to the passive voice of a verb where the subject receives the action.  The Son of God does the action of coming down from heaven as opposed to the Son of God being brought down from heaven.  This is in favor of the Son of God existing in a living way before He came down from heaven.  I don't know of any other way that the Son of God could have done the action of coming unless He was functioning on His own.  The Son of God came down in an active way, not in a passive way like a plan. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know ? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. Now, those who were listening to Him saying this were grumbling amongst themselves because they couldn't believe that He was alive in heaven before He came down from heaven.  Jesus said that He was also the bread that came down from heaven, again the active voice for the verb “came”.  The Son of God existed, He did the coming, He wasn't brought down like a plan or even a sperm.  That would have been in the passive voice. Something for you to think about Adam. God bless you, Kathi Hi dear Golla, No response from you on this post??? I pray you are well. LU

Hi Sis Kathi.
Thanks for your prayers and concern for me. Infact I was not well for the last 3 days and was  suffereing with hypertension. It is a new thing for in this early age of 41. I never suffered early with this. I believe God is the one who tears and also heals us as per Hosea 6:1-3. He spoke to me through that word.

I appreciate your post on preexistence I know Jesus is the living bread that came down from heaven as he was the word of God that was with God in the beginning as per Jn 1:1.

I think Mandy will take care of your questions. Hope we will have healthy debate.
Thanks and love to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Jesus did not say he was the one who brought the living bread but that he was that bread.
He personalised that meaning.
But Jesus was a man and men are not bread from heaven so what did he mean?

[gollamudi]

Please read my post even I said the same thing.
Thanks
Adam

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 19 2008,02:11)

Hi Kathi, It would be one thing if Jesus was said to only have “come down from heaven”, but the scriptures go on more specifically to say that Jesus came from God. Even more specifically, in John chapter 16 it says that Jesus came from the Father and then entered the world.  The disciples said that when Jesus entered the world it was his beginning.  Think about that, the beginning of Jesus….. Um, I'm checking back so infrequent these days please do not expect a speedy reply but I wanted to add my thoughts here.  Thanks, Kathi and hope you and your family are doing well. Love, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
Thank you, my family is well. You don't have to respond to this because I know that you are focusing on some personal things right now and know that I am praying for you.

In response to your post, yes I know that Jesus, the man, had a beginning in Mary. However there is an aspect of Him that was alive and in existence in the beginning, back in Genesis.

Love to you,
kathi

[Lightenup]

Dear Golla,
Please rest and take care of yourself.

Take His yoke upon you for His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Prayers are with you.

Blessings,
Kathi

[gollamudi]

Thanks Sis Kathi.

[Irene]

gollandi! My best wishes for good health go with you. Hypertension is so wide spread here in America and you can control that with a healthy diet. That is funny because that is when I started my Hypertension and have been on Medication for it ever since. You can live a happy life with it as long as you keep it in control. We live in a hectic wold today and things are not going to get any better.
I will keep you in my prayers.
Bless you
Peace and Love Irene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Irene @ July 21 2008,02:06)

gollandi!  My best wishes for good health go with you. Hypertension is so wide spread here in America and you can control that with a healthy diet. That is funny because that is when I started my Hypertension and have been on Medication for it ever since. You can live a happy life with it as long as you keep it in control. We live in a hectic wold today and things are not going to get any better. I will keep you in my prayers. Bless you Peace and Love Irene

Hi Sis Irene,
Thank you very much for your good advice infact my doctor has advised the same way to control my diet and do some brisk walking. I always see your caring advice for brothers and sisters who are in trouble.

May God continue to strengthen you to comfort many in the Lord.
Love and peace to you
Adam

[Lightenup]

To all,

I was talking to my pastor this Sunday after his message and he spoke of the “lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world” and I knew that I heard of that before but I never really looked at that. Well, I have learned something about that verse. The NASB gives a different translation of this verse than the KJV and also the NET but the NET is more like the NASB. The notes at the end give a reason for the NET's translation and I would say that it is the most correct because the lamb wasn't slain before the foundation of the earth, He was slain as Jesus on the cross. He wasn't slain twice.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. NASB

And all that dwell (5723) upon the earth shall worship (5692) him, whose names are not written (5769) in the book of life of the Lamb slain (5772) from the foundation of the world. KJV

13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, 26 everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world 27 in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed. 28 NET

NET notes: 27 tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.

I thought that was interesting to see what a difference it makes to put the phrase “since the foundation of the world” in the two different places in the translation.

Any thoughts?

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Compare
Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[Author]

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