Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,10:44)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene GB I agree! I think the only way to explain these things is the “Trinitarian view”. I believe the Unitarians has less contradictions than the Henotheist and Arians. That is the delima that the Henotheist and the Arians run into is that only YHWH by himself, with none other made all things. So in my opinion the Unitarains are are more noble to the scriptures than the Henotheist and the Arians, concerning the nature of God! WJ

Hi WJ,
Again you too try to staple verses together with logic and inference to try and distill one truth. That is not the way of finding truth.

All verses must stand alone and find individual support.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,11:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,10:44) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene GB I agree! I think the only way to explain these things is the “Trinitarian view”. I believe the Unitarians has less contradictions than the Henotheist and Arians. That is the delima that the Henotheist and the Arians run into is that only YHWH by himself, with none other made all things. So in my opinion the Unitarains are are more noble to the scriptures than the Henotheist and the Arians, concerning the nature of God! WJ Hi WJ, Again you too try to staple verses together with logic and inference to try and distill one truth. That is not the way of finding truth. All verses must stand alone and find individual support.

NH

Look in the Mirror!

You just said….

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,08:50)

Hi GM, The Word was with God in the beginning. The Word is identified as Jesus in 1 Jn1 and Rev 19 The details are not revealed but as such it is written.

Comparing scripture with scripture is not patch work. It is proper hermaneutics!

You cannot accept a doctrine because of some scriptures and reject the other scriptures that contradict them.

Or maybe you can?

WJ

[Irene]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37)

If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene

No you don't. I do not believe in the trinity. If you understand that God is a title it all falls in place. Just like the God of Silver and the God of Gold and Satan is considered the God of this world. He offered it to Jesus when He tempted Him. Satan certainly is keeping this world captive. Many Kings were called God. And were does it say that the Father created it all? In Genesis it says let us create man in our image. Then in Col.
1:15 He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn over all creation. Then looooooook He created all.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and are in earth etc……
verse 17 All things were created by Him and through and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
verse 18 And He is the heard of the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.
Preeminence means first in all. He was the firstborn of all creation, by Him all was created by the power of the Father who gave it to Him and He was the firstborn of the death.
verse 19 The Father said it pleased Him that in Him all the fullness should dwell.
I would never deny that our Father Jehovah is above all. Neither would Jesus.
Ephesians 4:6
Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The truth that the Word was with God has two witnesses
-two in Jn1 and 1 in 1Jn1 so it is a biblical fact.[2Cor13.1]

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,11:38)

Hi WJ, The truth that the Word was with God has two witnesses -two in Jn1 and 1 in 1Jn1 so it is a biblical fact.[2Cor13.1]

NH

Yes and the truth that only YHWH created all things “by himself” with “None other” has more than one witness, as well as the NT having more than one witness declaring Yeshua being the one that By or through whom all things were made.

Shall I pull them up?

So there you have it. You live with the contradictions!

I believe there is only “One Divine Being” that created all things!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Irene @ July 11 2008,11:35)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene No you don't. I do not believe in the trinity. If you understand that God is a title it all falls in place. Just like the God of Silver and the God of Gold and Satan is considered the God of this world. He offered it to Jesus when He tempted Him. Satan certainly is keeping this world captive. Many Kings were called God. And were does it say that the Father created it all? In Genesis it says let us create man in our image. Then in Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn over all creation. Then looooooook He created all. verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and are in earth etc…… verse 17 All things were created by Him and through and for Him. verse 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. verse 18 And He is the heard of the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. Preeminence means first in all. He was the firstborn of all creation, by Him all was created by the power of the Father who gave it to Him and He was the firstborn of the death. verse 19 The Father said it pleased Him that in Him all the fullness should dwell.   I would never deny that our Father Jehovah is above all. Neither would Jesus. Ephesians 4:6 Irene

Irene

What does “By myself” and “None other” mean to you?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,11:43)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,11:38) Hi WJ, The truth that the Word was with God has two witnesses -two in Jn1 and 1 in 1Jn1 so it is a biblical fact.[2Cor13.1] NH Yes and the truth that only YHWH created all things “by himself” with “None other” has more than one witness, as well as the NT having more than one witness declaring Yeshua being the one that By or through whom all things were made. Shall I pull them up? So there you have it. You live with the contradictions! I believe there is only “One Divine Being” that created all things! WJ

Hi WJ,
Yes pull them all up. There are no contradictions.
Only unusual features that need pondering

[Irene]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,11:43)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,11:38) Hi WJ, The truth that the Word was with God has two witnesses -two in Jn1 and 1 in 1Jn1 so it is a biblical fact.[2Cor13.1] NH Yes and the truth that only YHWH created all things “by himself” with “None other” has more than one witness, as well as the NT having more than one witness declaring Yeshua being the one that By or through whom all things were made. Shall I pull them up? So there you have it. You live with the contradictions! I believe there is only “One Divine Being” that created all things! WJ

W. J. Did you even read my post? It seems that you are very much set in your ways. No offence. I believed and even taught our Children the trinity. Thanks to God that He did not leave me in that state.
Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Irene @ July 11 2008,11:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,11:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,11:38) Hi WJ, The truth that the Word was with God has two witnesses -two in Jn1 and 1 in 1Jn1 so it is a biblical fact.[2Cor13.1] NH Yes and the truth that only YHWH created all things “by himself” with “None other” has more than one witness, as well as the NT having more than one witness declaring Yeshua being the one that By or through whom all things were made. Shall I pull them up? So there you have it. You live with the contradictions! I believe there is only “One Divine Being” that created all things! WJ W. J. Did you even read my post? It seems that you are very much set in your ways. No offence. I believed and even taught our Children the trinity. Thanks to God that He did not leave me in that state. Irene

Irene

I read your post, and you insist that a big God made all things through a little god. This is not scriptural. You have thrown away the truth for a false belief that contradicts the scritpures.

No offence, but as long as I have been here I have not seen you change a thing that you believe.

Of course I dont know all of what you believe since a whole lot of what you post is your husbands words.

So how does your statement make you superior in your beleifs than mine anyway?

WJ

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37)

If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene

No…those are are not the only options…When God said..he alone created the world..he did..thru Jesus..colossians 1:16 tells us so…take this example..

Say I worked at the Ford Motor Company..as the person who designed and built cars…when that car is presented to the world…it will be presented as a creation of Ford Motor Company…and Ford Motor Company alone…althought obviously “Ford” produced the cars thru me…

Now apply that to GOD and Christ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,11:44)

Quote (Irene @ July 11 2008,11:35) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene No you don't. I do not believe in the trinity. If you understand that God is a title it all falls in place. Just like the God of Silver and the God of Gold and Satan is considered the God of this world. He offered it to Jesus when He tempted Him. Satan certainly is keeping this world captive. Many Kings were called God. And were does it say that the Father created it all? In Genesis it says let us create man in our image. Then in Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn over all creation. Then looooooook He created all. verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and are in earth etc…… verse 17 All things were created by Him and through and for Him. verse 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. verse 18 And He is the heard of the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. Preeminence means first in all. He was the firstborn of all creation, by Him all was created by the power of the Father who gave it to Him and He was the firstborn of the death. verse 19 The Father said it pleased Him that in Him all the fullness should dwell.   I would never deny that our Father Jehovah is above all. Neither would Jesus. Ephesians 4:6 Irene Irene What does “By myself” and “None other” mean to you? WJ

Irene

And just why did you evade answering the question anyway?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,12:08)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene No…those are are not the only options…When God said..he alone created the world..he did..thru Jesus..colossians 1:16 tells us so…take this example.. Say I worked at the Ford Motor Company..as the person who designed and built cars…when that car is presented to the world…it will be presented as a creation of Ford Motor Company…and Ford Motor Company alone…althought obviously “Ford” produced the cars thru me… Now apply that to GOD and Christ

DK

That is not the definition of “by myself” and “alone”.

WJ

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Irene @ July 11 2008,11:35)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene No you don't. I do not believe in the trinity. If you understand that God is a title it all falls in place. Just like the God of Silver and the God of Gold and Satan is considered the God of this world. He offered it to Jesus when He tempted Him. Satan certainly is keeping this world captive. Many Kings were called God. And were does it say that the Father created it all? In Genesis it says let us create man in our image. Then in Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn over all creation. Then looooooook He created all. verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and are in earth etc…… verse 17 All things were created by Him and through and for Him. verse 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. verse 18 And He is the heard of the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. Preeminence means first in all. He was the firstborn of all creation, by Him all was created by the power of the Father who gave it to Him and He was the firstborn of the death. verse 19 The Father said it pleased Him that in Him all the fullness should dwell.   I would never deny that our Father Jehovah is above all. Neither would Jesus. Ephesians 4:6 Irene

Amen

[dirtyknections]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,12:10)

Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,12:08) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene No…those are are not the only options…When God said..he alone created the world..he did..thru Jesus..colossians 1:16 tells us so…take this example.. Say I worked at the Ford Motor Company..as the person who designed and built cars…when that car is presented to the world…it will be presented as a creation of Ford Motor Company…and Ford Motor Company alone…althought obviously “Ford” produced the cars thru me… Now apply that to GOD and Christ DK That is not the definition of “by myself” and “alone”. WJ

THats the way GOD described it in the bible…

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,12:11)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2008,12:10) Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,12:08) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37) If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene No…those are are not the only options…When God said..he alone created the world..he did..thru Jesus..colossians 1:16 tells us so…take this example.. Say I worked at the Ford Motor Company..as the person who designed and built cars…when that car is presented to the world…it will be presented as a creation of Ford Motor Company…and Ford Motor Company alone…althought obviously “Ford” produced the cars thru me… Now apply that to GOD and Christ DK That is not the definition of “by myself” and “alone”. WJ THats the way GOD described it in the bible…

DK

This is the way YHWH describes it…

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Is 44
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things ; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
 

Strangeley enough in the concordance on this site there are no words shown translated as ALONE or BY MYSELF??

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
WE know that there is for us only one God, the Father.
Others, including Jesus and men are only called gods.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Nick,
Again we have come to square one of this subject “preexistence”. Some times I feel we are not unlearning anything to learn other's view. That is creating so much friction among us. You say that God is the Father he alone is God and others like Jesus are called gods. Why we are confused with so called gods?. Paul says there is no God but one who is called Father and there is only one Lord Jesus the Christ(Messiah). I believe the Trinitarian view is better than other's view when interpreting many scriptures in respect to creation. You can not say Jesus created all things with Father's power as our Sis Irene repeatedly quotes. Jesus bacame word after his birth on this earth and now he is called the “word of God” (Rev 19:13) because he is permanent indwelling for God's word. The one God created this whole universe by the power of His own word (spoken) that's why Genesis mentions the words “God spoke…God said”. 'The word was with God' doesn't mean there were two Godly beings in the beginning even the Trinity says only one God. Here only Gene and myself differ with you and others who believe Jesus created worlds. Please believe Jesus is the one who revealed complete image of God after his birth not before his birth because he was not existing as a person earlier. God is invisible and immortal. He manifests in His creation through many ways and many measures. He did this in O.T in many places through angels and prophets by sending His word(spoken) and through Jesus in N.T by the incarnation of His own word(spoken).

This again doesn't make more than one God because they were only His appearances and manifestations. He wants to see His image in us also that's why He has filled us with His Holy Spirit and regenerating us into His image this doesn't give us right to become God Himself.
Thanks and blessigns
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi Gm,
I agree that Jesus revealed God living as in his human vessel from the Jordan.
But the Word was with also God in the beginning.

[gollamudi]

Yes, you right brother. But that word has not become a person untill Jesus was born on this earth. There lies the difference even a trinitarian may agree with this.

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