Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Indeed God hid the truth about Christ.
RAISE UP in Deut 19 could have been used in the same sense as in Amos 2

11And I raised up []6965] of your sons for prophets, and of your young men for Nazarites. Is it not even thus, O ye children of Israel? saith the LORD.

But instead the Holy Spirit showed Peter in Acts 3 and Paul in Romans1 that it was in relationship to resurrection. Perhaps Jesus showed this too to the disciples on the way to Emmaeus?

[gollamudi]

Hi Mandy,
Thanks again for your keen reply. I know this is the key point where actually we are strucked with. I have given you material for thinking. I know you are a sportive lady you will not get ofended by my questions. Thanks for that once gain. I now study well between these two understandings; one is believing Jesus as literal Son of God in flesh and blood and other is believing Jesus as the literal Son of God through Spiritual relationship that is through the anointing of Spirit of Christ and resurrection.

Our understanding also lies in believing that God is the source of all spirits of men(human beings) as well as animals as per Ecclesiates. This is the relationship we are having with the God our creator and also the one Father who created us. Adam was given his spirit from God when he was created from dust of the earth. One more question here is whether all other human beings given their individual spirits at their birth directly from God? Nick and few others believe that we have been given our spirits from our biological parents but not from God directly. This may be the reason of inheriting the sinful nature and the concept of 'dead in spirit' in our lives before coming to God. God has predestained to send human Messiah to Israelites as promised right from the Garden of Eden as the 'seed of woman', then to Abraham being his own seed through which all the nations are going to be blessed, again through Moses that God is going to raise up a (human) prophet from his own brotheren and to David that God will raise up his own seed a son whom God promised to call him as His Son and give him the throne of king David. When the fullness of time came for Jesus birth, an angel of the Lord appeared to Mary confirmed some of these promises of God saying “you will conceive by the power of Holy Spirit and therefore the child will be Holy and will be called Son of God”. This is the background for our understanding of Jesus' birth.

In many places God says through His Spirit that we are also called as sons and daughters of God by believing Jesus. But Jesus is monogenes (uniquely begotten ) Son of God. While I accept your logic of God should be the Father of Jesus but I am not able digest the logic of God having loins and human sperm to fertile the egg of Mary because He is beyond our logic, He is immortal, invisible and Spirit in nature no material substance can existince in Him.. IMO. Jesus was called 'Son of God' at his birth in fact he was also to be called 'Immanuel' which means God will be with humans. If we take this literally we have to believe in 'God's incarnation as human' which we don't agree saying that God can not become mortal man and he is not a son of man. If all these logics apply where is the question of believing Jesus' biological relation to God?

I will come back to with more details further. That's all for now.
Love to you
Adam

[97407]

Hi all

I have been reading this thread for a couple of years. All of the opinions are well researched and reasoned.

Quickly after the death and resurrection of Jesus individuals/organizations begin to question how these events could have happen. The Ebionites, Monarchians, Adoptionist, Arians, Gnostics, Jewish Christians, Pagans, Roman/Pauline as well as others.

We have dozens of sects attempting to define and clearify their understanding of how Jesus was conceived/begotten as well as how he was resurrected. These questions exist today and have existed for all of those years. To do mental gymnastics with the language of the Apostles and others to prove any point may be unconstructive. I am not sure we can understand their intent.

If Jesus pre-existed, some type of intervention was needed from God. The same thing happened with the resurrection. Something out of the ordinary needed to take place. This is not hard for me to understand. If we had no intervention at his birth we still have a miracle with the ressurection. Why is one harder to beleive than the other?

Are the details of these events mandatory for me to understand? My answer is No. I am only glad that they happened. It is the only hope that mankind has.

The early church decided upon a compromise and created the Trinity Doctrine in order to harmonize, in their opnion, the written word in both the old and new testament. I don't agree with their compromise but I have not come up with a satisfactory answer.

I just beleive they happened because of the totality of the written record.:D

[Not3in1]

Hi 97 – Welcome!

Now we have a member here who is “94” and “94” – that may be confusing, I don't know?  Brother “97” does not have a Avatar, perhaps YOU could choose one and that is how we can easily identify you?  Just a sugesstion…..

Quote

Are the details of these events mandatory for me to understand?

Mandatory?  I don't know.  But certainly depending on how you understand these events defines WHICH Jesus you believe in……

Glad you're here,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi 97 and welcome.
I too prefer the Son of God receives his full recogntion for what he gave up to come and save us.

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 30 2008,14:02)

Jesus was called 'Son of God' at his birth in fact he was also to be called 'Immanuel' which means God will be with humans. If we take this literally we have to believe in 'God's incarnation as human' which we don't agree saying that God can not become mortal man and he is not a son of man

If Jesus is “God with us”, why do we have to believe in incarnation automatically?  I say that we do not.

A son of a father is someone quite literally who is a “chip off the old block” as the saying goes.  For instance my brother looks just like my father.  It's uncanny the way he moves, talks and walks like my Dad.  In fact, when my Dad died, a lot of my aunts and uncles found great comfort in having my brother around…….they said it was like having my father around…..they said it was like my father was still with us.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Jesus allowed God to inhabit his vessel.
God visited His people in the vessel of Jesus

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:45)

Hi not3, Jesus allowed God to inhabit his vessel. God visited His people in the vessel of Jesus

Literally? Like a medium lets a spirit take over their physical body to act and will?

[Irene]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:41)

Hi 97 and welcome. I too prefer the Son of God receives his full recogntion for what he gave up to come and save us.

That is why when He returnes every knee will bow and every tongue confesses that He is the Lord. He is our King of King and Lord of Lord. He deserves Honor and Glory. Not worship, that belongs to our Father God only.
Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2008,08:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:45) Hi not3, Jesus allowed God to inhabit his vessel. God visited His people in the vessel of Jesus Literally?  Like a medium lets a spirit take over their physical body to act and will?

Mandy

It seems that NH jumps around with his theology depending on the subject or the scripture being discussed. Kind of like the Democrats do.

NH believes the scripture that says “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”, yet he says that the Father never left heaven.  

How does this make any sense?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2008,08:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:45) Hi not3, Jesus allowed God to inhabit his vessel. God visited His people in the vessel of Jesus Literally?  Like a medium lets a spirit take over their physical body to act and will?

Hi not3,
Are you not a vessel?
2Cor4
7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2008,09:00)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2008,08:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:45) Hi not3, Jesus allowed God to inhabit his vessel. God visited His people in the vessel of Jesus Literally?  Like a medium lets a spirit take over their physical body to act and will? Mandy It seems that NH jumps around with his theology depending on the subject or the scripture being discussed. Kind of like the Democrats do. NH believes the scripture that says “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”, yet he says that the Father never left heaven.   How does this make any sense? WJ

Hi WJ,
When did the Father leave heaven??

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,09:17)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2008,09:00) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2008,08:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:45) Hi not3, Jesus allowed God to inhabit his vessel. God visited His people in the vessel of Jesus Literally?  Like a medium lets a spirit take over their physical body to act and will? Mandy It seems that NH jumps around with his theology depending on the subject or the scripture being discussed. Kind of like the Democrats do. NH believes the scripture that says “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”, yet he says that the Father never left heaven.   How does this make any sense? WJ Hi WJ, When did the Father leave heaven??

NH

LOL!!!      

These are your words…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:45)

Hi not3, Jesus allowed God to inhabit his vessel. God visited His people in the vessel of Jesus

WJ

[NickHassan]

see the thread on the Father

[97407]

He Not3in1

I am new to the board and don't know how to choose an avatar. I will attempt to find out.

I am in the middle of writing a study of the Holy Spirit. The most important thing I have discovered is, it does as it sees fit.

God's Holy Spirit gave life to Adam. Think of That “LIFE”.

The Holy Spirit comes to live in the body of a Christian. When that happens it is unexplainable. When it happens, it is unexplainable even to the individual that receives it.

One minute you are natural, the next you are spiritual. A mystery indeed.

If we had observed the conception/birth of Jesus we probably could not have understood the process utilized just as we don't understand the above. Some things are just not explainable to our minds. The Holy Spirit does as it will.

We are still asking the same questions two thousand years later.

[NickHassan]

Hi 97,
Adam received the BREATH of God, not the Spirit of God.
Gen 2.7
The second Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit, by the anointing as Christ at the Jordan.
1cor.15

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,09:04)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 01 2008,08:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:45) Hi not3, Jesus allowed God to inhabit his vessel. God visited His people in the vessel of Jesus Literally?  Like a medium lets a spirit take over their physical body to act and will? Hi not3, Are you not a vessel? 2Cor4 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

OK. So you do not believe that God literally “took over” Jesus (i.e. used him as a vessel to live on earth and do his work)?

I guess there is a difference between possession of a vessel and using the term figuratively.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2008,09:00)

NH believes the scripture that says “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”, yet he says that the Father never left heaven.

I guess it matters whether or not he believes that God took over Jesus' body OR if he just filled him with his Spirit to do good works like he fills every believer.

God did not possses Jesus. He allowed Jesus to have life in himself just as God has life in himself. Vessel or no vessel – Jesus lived life here on earth as Jesus – although he was used of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
We can all be such vessels.

2Tim2
20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Jesus spent much time cleansing the vessels of men.

Mt12
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

Not puppets but vessels that allow the gentle wind of the spirit to live in and to lead us.

[Not3in1]

Yes, Nick this makes complete sense.
I was worried that your belief system called for a Jesus that actually was a literal vessel for God to come to earth in. In other words, Jesus was really not a man in his own right, he was an incarnation of God Almighty.

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