Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi Klondike,
Welcome and a well presnted post.

Jesus did not give his own life to others but lost it at calvary and gave the eternal life of the Father that he had been given in his Spiritual baptism at the Jordan.

IN HIM was life.

[Not3in1]

KLONDIKE – WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE?

I agree with your theology. You will find that not too many believe the way we do that Jesus is the literal Son of God. I look forward to reading more from you. Please, please stay and contribute more!!

Oh, and welcome!
Mandy

[Anonymous]

Have been visiting this site for awhile and this topic has been of interest to me for awhile and I've been putting together a study for the last couple of years. I've finally finished it and I'm not sure just quite what I'm going to do with it yet. The discussions on your site are quite common among most believers and well thought out. When I read the one where someone made the connection between the seed of God being eternal, I thought it was time to present some of my views. So far I was only one that's ever come to this conclusion. I've always believed that God never gives inspiration to only one member of the body and I would like to present some excerpts from my study for you to scrutinize. I'm going to go through it in a systematic order in order to lay the foundation in the proper order. This is the first part.
The Theological

I’ll now go on to a theological perspective and establish why I believe what I believe and even if you do not consider my perspective to be correct, I can at least give an answer for why I believe what I believe.
The most ironic part about the differences between the different perspectives of this theology will become evident at the end of my teaching when I summarize the context.
When everything has been said, we’ll see that that which is really relevant, is that which we are in agreement on already.

The way in which I’m going to address this topic, is to use the same Scriptures that most Trinitarians use to establish their theology and present them from a different perspective for you to consider. I’m going to break down the theological part into the three following parts:
1. The position of God.
2. The title of God.
3. The authority of the Word that accompanies the position and the title.

The word god, as the Position
Strong’s # 2316 – God = Theos: A god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities.
Because most of us were brought up in this culture, when we refer to or use the word, god, we automatically associate this word to the only true God, the Father of Jesus, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is the one true God who created the heavens and the earth. Though it is true that there is only one true God, the word god, as used throughout the Bible, is not always specific to one particular individual, such as the only true God that we know. The word god, is often in reference to anyone within the position of a god. This is confirmed in Exodus 20: 3 when God said, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
The word god is also used as the title of the one who holds the position of god and it is also representative of the authority that the position and the title carry. Even though our God may be the only true God who is worthy to occupy this position of divinity, the proper usage of the word god, is in reference to all positions of divinity in general, both physical and spiritual, unless the context of the Scripture or the word usage, makes the word god specific to the only true and almighty God that we know. The problem that most people have is that even though they know that the word god is generic in nature, they do not always retain this train of thought as they read the Scripture. I’m going to go through some Scriptures while holding to and retaining the train of thought with the word, god, as a position and a title and let’s see if we can come to a little better understanding of the person and the deity of Jesus. To better understand where I’m coming from, I’m going to use the words king and royalty when I’m referring to the worldly kingdom and I’m going to include or substitute the word God, with the words Deity and divinity in reference to the spiritual kingdom.
Our minds have a natural tendency to associate a particular thought to a particular word. The reason that I’m going to substitute the word God with the word Deity, is to remove our natural tendency to associate the word God with the person rather than the position. Once we adjust our thinking to perceive the word, god, as it is properly defined as a position and a title in general, we will get a better understanding of the person who holds the position and title.

Jesus told Nicodemus, “If I have told you of earthly things and you believe not, how shall you believe if I tell you of heavenly things.”
Jesus often used earthly examples that we can relate to, in order to draw simple comparisons that explain the heavenly, in order that we can more easily understand the heavenly realm. If we are not able to understand when Jesus uses earthly examples that we are familiar with, how can we possibly understand, if He was to tell us by using examples with which we are not familiar. As I go through some Scriptures, I’m also going to use some earthly examples to explain the heavenly.

The Geek word seed in the Strong’s is usually defined as sperma [Strong’s # 4690], so before we start, let’s take a brief moment to review some basic concepts about pregnancy and how it occurs.
The woman produces this little round thing, it’s called an egg.
The man produces this little squiggly thing, it’s called a sperm.
When the little squiggly thing, penetrates the little round thing, the little round thing is fertilized. The little round thing begins to divide and it eventually takes the shape of a baby.
When Jesus was born and while He lived upon this earth, He was flesh and blood. There are many references that identify Jesus as both the Son of God and the Son of man and the only way that Jesus can be born both the Son of God and the Son of man, is for the sperm of God to be conceived by the egg of Mary within her womb. This is not a deep spiritual truth; this is simply a fact of life. If we retain, adhere to and apply this simple basic truth about conception and birth as we read through the Scriptures, it will go a long way in removing the mystery between the relationship of our Heavenly Father and His Son.

Jesus, after the flesh was born into the corruptible flesh of man who is subject to death because of the sin of Adam [Romans 1: 3]. Jesus came from the seed of David, who is of the seed of Abraham, who is of the seed or sperma of Adam. This is why He is referred to as, the Son of man.
Jesus was also born of the seed or sperma of God. God is eternal. If God is eternal, then God’s seed or sperma is also eternal, which means that the eternal seed or sperma of God, was always with God and in God since the beginning. Jesus was born of that which was temporal and of that which is eternal. If the seed of God is eternal and the seed was always with God and in God, then Jesus, being born of the seed of God, was always with the Father, in the Father and came forth from the Father. The seed of God is eternal and Jesus was conceived from that which is eternal, therefore He is eternal. Jesus was from above, He was before Abraham and with the Father since the beginning, because He, being born of the eternal seed or sperma of the Father, was always within the Father since the beginning of eternity.

To establish the idea that Jesus was in the loins of His Father since the beginning of eternity is a spiritual truth that is also carried out in the physical. This train of thought is established in Hebrews chapter seven, verses nine and ten where the author states that Levi paid tithes while yet in the loins of Abraham, even though Levi was generations away. It is also established when Jesus is referred to as the seed of David [Romans 1: 3] and also in God’s promise to Abraham when God states the promise was to Abraham’s seed, which is Christ [Galatians 3: 16]. If the seed of Levi was in the loins of Abraham while he was yet generations away, then the seed of Jesus was also in the loins of David, Abraham and Adam. If Jesus was in the loins of His physical fathers since their creation,
it is not unreasonable to accept that He was in the loins of His Heavenly Father since the beginning of eternity as well.

If I was to tell someone that my father was Thor, or Apollo’s or one of the other Greek gods, I would by implication, be implying, that I myself was a god, because by stating that my father was a god, I would be implying that I was a god as well, because I would have been born the son of a god.
When we use the same reasoning with the word god as a position and not the person, we are left with a different impression when we read the following Scripture.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Our God is The God of Peace. Jesus, being born of the seed of God, was born The Prince of Peace. A prince after the earthy realm is someone who is born into and is royalty. A prince born into the worldly and spiritual realm is someone who is born into royalty and divinity. David was a King, therefore David was royalty. Jesus was born of the seed of David. Jesus, being born of the seed of royalty, is royalty. Our Heavenly Father is Deity, or God. Jesus, being the Son of Deity or God, is become Deity or God, because He was born Deity or God. To have one who is both the Son of David and Son of God with us, is to have one who is both royalty and Deity with us. The following Scripture will confirm this.

In John chapter ten starting at verse thirty, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.”
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works have I showed you from my Father, for which of those works do you stone me?
The Jews answered Him saying, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus responded, “If He called them gods, unto whom the Word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; say ye of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, thou blasphemest because I said, I am the Son of God?

When Jesus proclaimed that He was the Son of God, He was by implication stating that He was also God, simply because His Father was God.
As we all know, there are many different versions of the Bible. One of the reasons we have different translations, is because there is more than one Greek manuscript from which the translations are taken. Even though there are slight, and for the most part, irrelevant variations in the original manuscripts, they are all basically identical. There is one variation, and to my knowledge it only appears in the Nestle Greek Text and I find it to be quite interesting.

Most manuscripts translate John 1: 18 this way:
“No man has seen God at anytime; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”

The Nestle Greek Text translates John 1: 18 this way:
“God, no man has seen, never. The only begotten God, the one being in the bosom of the Father, that one declared Him.”

Though the variation is slight, the Nestle Greek Text leaves one with the impression that Jesus was God, because He was begotten and born God. When we consider that the word god is generic in nature and refers to a position and not to a specific person, we can understand that Jesus was born into the position of divinity, or we can say that Jesus is God, because He was born into the position of God. The Nestle variation of the Scripture explains it quite well. Just as the son of an earthly king is born into royalty, the Son of a Deity [God] is also born Deity [God].

It's bedtime for me now. back later

[Not3in1]

Quote (klondike @ June 28 2008,14:14)

When Jesus was born and while He lived upon this earth, He was flesh and blood. There are many references that identify Jesus as both the Son of God and the Son of man and the only way that Jesus can be born both the Son of God and the Son of man, is for the sperm of God to be conceived by the egg of Mary within her womb. This is not a deep spiritual truth; this is simply a fact of life. If we retain, adhere to and apply this simple basic truth about conception and birth as we read through the Scriptures, it will go a long way in removing the mystery between the relationship of our Heavenly Father and His Son.

If you have been visiting this site for a while, I'm sure you are aware that I am the only one who shares your theology.

I need to read through your post again as I'm in a bit of a hurry right now, but it looks like we are the only ones who believe in the literal sonship of Jesus Christ.

Basically you are sharing (more eloquently) things that I have been trying to drive home since I logged on here for the first time.

Glad you're here!
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Hi Klondike welcome,
Before we go for long discussion a small doubt; we have been told of Jesus as he is from the seed of David on his birth as human it never was clear that he was from the seed of God who is immortal. But basic question to you is; can God the invisible and immortal have a seed or sperm of mortal nature in Him? Can He involve Himself personally producing His own so called sperm of mortal nature?
If Jesus was having the eternal seed of God which can only be immortal in nature how could he die on the cross?
I believe Jesus was born through normal conception by the Holy Spirit's creating power, that is God must have created a perfect sperm of human (not God's because God can not have human sperm) and was given the Spirit of Son-ship and conceived Mary. I also believe God can only create things to happen I don't believe He gives birth to another God/man by involving Himself some how personally in conception process.

These are my honest questions to you before you proceed further. I appreciate your concern in bringing out the in depth understanding about Jesus' origins.
Thanks
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (klondike @ June 28 2008,12:37)

Jesus Christ was born of the seed,[sperm] of God. If God is eternal, then God's seed is eternal as well. Jesus was born of the seed of David, from the seed of Abraham, from the seed of Adam who is subject to death and through whom all who descended from Adam are subject to death as well.  Adam was created in the image of God, we are born after the image Adam. In Adam we die, because Adam died. It was necessary for Jesus to be born of the seed of man who is subject to death in order to redeem man from death because of sin. It was necessary for Jesus to be born of the seed of God, in whom is eternal life in order to give eternal life. Jesus was before Abraham, because being born of the eternal seed of God. Jesus was from above because He was with the Father, in the Father, came forth from the Father. Col 1: 15-17 this scripture does not say that Jesus created   THE  heavens and   THE   earth. This Scripture says that He created all things that are  IN the heavens and  IN the earth. It does not say that He created THE heavens and the earth, whether its the sun, moon, stars, the animals the birds the fishes and man. It says He created all things  IN the Heavens and IN the earth whether it's thrones, dominions, principalities or powers. Verse 13 states that we are delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of God's Son. These Scriptures are in reference to the creation of the Kingdom of God's Son and the authority of the Son in His creation. By His resurrection He has been given all authority within His kingdom and he establishes all positions of power and authority within His Kingdom because He is the Head of His Kingdom.   The word God is not specific to the only true God. The word God is generic and is in reference to positions of authority and to positions of divinity. When we keep the word God specific to a position and a title we get a better understanding of the position and the title of that The Son of God was given by His Father. If an earthly King was to have a Son, his son would be born into a position royalty and his son would be worthy of the respect that was due to the one within the position. The word god is specific to a position and can also be one's title. The word God, is not God's name, it is His position and His title. Jesus was born into the position of God, because His Father was God. Jesus was divinity, because He was born into divinity.   If and earthly king had a son, he could set his son upon the throne and anoint his son as king. He could place the entire kingdom under the hand of his son and his son would answer to no one but his Father. Because the word God is a position and a title, the Almighty God can set His Son upon the throne and place the the works of His hands under His Sons authority and the Son would answer to no one but the Father.   Hebrews 1:9 [King James Version] Thou has loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above they fellows.    Hebrews 1: 9 [direct rendering of Nestle Greek Version] Thou loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore, anointed thee god, the god of thee. with oil of gladness above the partners of thee.   To be anointed by a king or to be anointed as king by the king is a big difference. Jesus was born, into divinity, anointed god, by God and was given authority over the works of His hands [Hebrews 2: 7].    In the beginning was the Word, but the Word did not become flesh until four thousand years later. The word god is generic and the word logos is the spoken word. In the generic sense of the word, god, a king would fulfill this position. If the king is god, then his word is god as well. If a king speaks, that which he speaks carries the authority of he who spoke. if a peasant was to speak, his words would have no authority, because the peasant has no authority. God's Word is God, because the Word originated from God. When God speaks, what He speaks comes to pass, because His Word carries His authority. God's Word is God, because God is God.   From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. God is invisible. What God is, His nature, His character, His love, is manifest in the Words that He spoke since the beginning. Because man has eyes but cannot see and ears that cannot hear, the logos of God became flesh. Four- thousand years later.

Welcome to the Website.

The hour has come to glorify the son.

Isn't that the same glory that he had with the Father before the world began?

If so, lets look at this glory.
1) Given power over all flesh
2) To give eternal life

Doesn't that fit perfectly with a Jesus who emptied himself of his former glory and came as a lowly man, and humbled himself to death and went to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was.

He is now seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Who was at God's side when he created all things? So his former glory would seem to indicate that he was at God's right hand side.

JOHN 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Compare with
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

Compare with
“When there were no oceans, I was given birth”.Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Compare with
“Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. Proverbs 8:30

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,17:05)

The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature.  Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity.  There is absolutely no way of having both.” The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15).  Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man).  If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham? What do other's think?  If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding.  As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception.

But Jesus HUMAN life did originate in the womb…nobodys arguing that…His spiritual life started at the beginning of all creation however…which is a clear teaching in the NT

[Not3in1]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 28 2008,16:37)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,17:05) The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature.  Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity.  There is absolutely no way of having both.” The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15).  Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man).  If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham? What do other's think?  If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding.  As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception. But Jesus HUMAN life did originate in the womb…nobodys arguing that…His spiritual life started at the beginning of all creation however…which is a clear teaching in the NT

Sorry DK, you can't have one theology without the other: if you believe Jesus originated before he was born you do not believe in the true conception of our Lord. Therefore you nullify those clear scriptures that say he was conceived.

I know your theory of “transfer” and I do not agree that God took some things away and added other's. Jesus is not a chemistry project but a living, breathing, beautiful Son of God and Man.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Is God bound by the human definition of men?

[Lightenup]

Hello Mandy,
Transferring someone into a different body is not at all unlike something God would do if you realize that believers will also be transferred into a new body in the future. We are going to “morph” into another form. When we get our new body, it will be a spiritual body, not a conceived body. I don't know if we are told how that spiritual body comes about but I believe it will be the new vessel for our spirit. We will go from one body to the next. From the corruptible to the incorruptible. (I am not teaching reincarnation here. We aren't going from one corruptible body to the next corruptible body to the next corruptible body and so on.) We will also experience the weird and wonderful chemistry change. The Son of God and humans are much more than “projects” for God, we are His children. We rejoice that we will be transferred into a new vessel. No more arthritis or pain in your knees.:) It is actually pretty awesome to think about the whole idea of getting transferred, not something to downplay. It would make a great NOVA special, eh? It would likely be even more amazing than conception.

Love,
Kathi

[Anonymous]

Hello Mandy, thank you for your vote of confidence. I know of a few others, who also share this view. I must admit that it took me awhile to see the whole picture because my past teachings and fast held opinions made it difficult to put the pieces of the puzzle together.
Hello gollamudi. I do not find it to be any more difficult for God to produce a sperm within and from Himself, than it is for God to create man from dust and create the sperm and the egg within man. All things are created by Him. IF God is the Father, if Jesus is truly the only begotten, and if Jesus is truly the Son of God, then I see no other way. It is of absolute necessity for Jesus to be both the son of man and the Son of God, otherwise He would have no ability to redeem man from death.
Hello Irene, you present a lot of Scripture, some of which appear to contradict. I have found that, at least for myself, that when Scripture appears to contradict, it's usually because my understanding and interpretation of the Scripture is incorrect. When you quote the Scripture from Proverbs chapter eight, verse one and verse twelve state that the context and the subject of the chapter is in reference to wisdom, not Jesus.

John 17: 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Even though I really like the King James Version, in this verse the King James Version does leave out a couple of very important words.

The Nestle Greek reads this verse like this.

And now glorify me thou, Father, with thyself with the glory which I had [have] before the world, to be with [beside] thee.
The word was is past tense, the words to be are future tense.
The word had, in which I had before the world is Strong's # 2192 which is, to have, which is present tense.
Though the changes are slight, it does change one's perception of whats being said.
You also shared some Scriptures in Colossians and John. I touched on these Scriptures earlier and I will go into more detail later in order to give them more clarity if you are interested and even if you do not agree, I will still give you another viewpoint to consider.

I once wrote,
It is only within the brilliance of the human mind
that man can take that which is simple
make it complicated
then spend the rest of his life perplexed
because he can't figure it out.

I always try to never leave the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus, though it is within the nature of my human mind to reject the simple and search for the deep things of God. The problem is, when I reject the simple, I reject the deep as well. It wasn't until I could separate the word God from the person and retain the understanding and the application of the word God, to the position and the title that goes with the position that things started coming together.

Let me take a brief moment to again review the basic concepts about pregnancy and how it occurs.
The woman produces this little round thing, it’s called an egg.
The man produces this little squiggly thing, it’s called a sperm.
When the little squiggly thing, penetrates the little round thing, the little round thing is fertilized. The little round thing begins to divide and it eventually takes the shape of a baby. This simple fact of life is pretty difficult to get around. If Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, then He had to originate from the egg of one individual and the sperm of another. If we truly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of man and the Son of God, then He would have had to have been born of the egg of a woman and the sperm of God. I have no problem believing that God created a human sperm from within Himself and planted it within the womb of Mary. It really doesn't matter to me how it was done as long as I know that it was done.
There is no way around it. If Jesus Christ was not born of the egg of woman, then He could not have been born of the seed of David, the seed of Abraham, or the seed of Adam and if He was not born of the seed of man, He could not be the Son of man. If He was not born of the seed of man with a body of flesh that is subject to death, He would not be able to taste death and pay the penalty for our sin and He would have no authority to redeem man from death and sin.
If Jesus Christ was not born of the seed of, or specifically, the sperm of God, then He cannot be the Son of God and He would not have the eternal life of God within Him in order to overcome death. The life of God is in His Spirit and if the sperm of God was not the origin of the life of Jesus, then eternal life would not be in Jesus by God’s Spirit and God would have no power or authority to redeem man from death and sin. The redemption of man is only possible through someone who is both, the Son of man and the Son of the Living God. This is why Jesus is the only way, He is the only one who was both the son of man and the Son of God. Jesus Christ was born of that which was subject to death and of that which is eternal. When Jesus was born and while He lived upon this earth, He was flesh and blood. There are many references that identify Jesus as both the Son of God and the Son of man and the only way that Jesus can be born both the Son of God and the Son of man, is for the sperm of God to be conceived by the egg of Mary within her womb. This is not a deep spiritual truth; this is simply a fact of life. If we retain, adhere to and apply this simple basic truth about conception and birth as we read through the Scriptures, it will go a long way in removing the mystery between the relationship of our Heavenly Father and His Son.

[Anonymous]

From the historical point of view there are a lot of references that state that the Trinity theology wasn’t developed until around three-hundred AD and then it took fifty to one hundred years or more to become fully established. Because the church continued to grow, it became politically advantageous to incorporate the church into the political realm. Because there were various and differing doctrines within the church, they wanted to get together and form a common belief.
It was about the year 325 at the Council of Nicea that the church set out to officially define their position on the Godhead. There were differing beliefs on whether or not to equate Jesus to the substance of God and there were also differing beliefs on their equality.
Other writings state that even though the Trinity theology was officially established, the Trinity theology wasn’t readily accepted by everyone and that it wasn’t until around the fifth century that the Trinity theology quit becoming a focus of serious controversy within the Catholic faith. Some writings state that one of the earlier arguments that was presented within the early Catholic Church, was that there was only the Father and the Son and others wanted to include the Holy Spirit as well. It was during this same period of time, while the discussions over the development of the Trinity theology were in progress, that the doctrine of Mary was also being developed and Mary was also considered to be one of the three persons within the Trinity. The reason that they considered Mary in their theology of the Trinity, was that even today Catholic belief states that Mary has a place in the redemption of man. Even though they had considered Mary to be included within the Trinity, they settled on the Holy Spirit instead. Most Christians have never associated the doctrine of the Trinity with the doctrine of Mary, and the one might not have been purposely established in order to create or establish the other, but according to the Catholic’s own historical writings, the doctrine of the Trinity is essential in establishing the redemptive work of Mary. While most claim that the doctrine of the Trinity is to establish the Deity of Jesus, in reality, at least within the Catholic theology, it serves to undermine the Deity of Jesus, in order to establish the deity of Mary. The original purpose of the Trinity theology is to establish Jesus as God. With Jesus established as God, the Mary doctrine establishes Mary as the Mother of God. To establish Mary as the Mother of God, establishes her as deity and gives her a role in the redemption of man. Even though I do not ascribe to Catholic theology, I must give them the recognition, that the Trinity theology within their denomination, at least serves a purpose.

[gollamudi]

Quote (klondike @ June 29 2008,01:20)

Hello gollamudi. I do not find it to be any more difficult for God to produce a sperm within and from Himself, than it is for God to create man from dust and create the sperm and the egg within man. All things are created by Him. IF God is the Father, if Jesus is truly the only begotten, and if Jesus is truly the Son of God, then I see no other way. It is of absolute necessity for Jesus to be both the son of man and the Son of God, otherwise He would have no ability to redeem man from death.     If Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, then He had to originate from the egg of one individual and the sperm of another. If we truly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of man and the Son of God, then He would have had to have been born of the egg of a woman and the sperm of God. I have no problem believing that God created a human sperm from within Himself and planted it within the womb of Mary. It really doesn't matter to me how it was done as long as I know that it was done.    There is no way around it. If Jesus Christ was not born of the egg of woman, then He could not have been born of the seed of David, the seed of Abraham, or the seed of Adam and if He was not born of the seed of man, He could not be the Son of man. If He was not born of the seed of man with a body of flesh that is subject to death, He would not be able to taste death and pay the penalty for our sin and He would have no authority to redeem man from death and sin.    If Jesus Christ was not born of the seed of, or specifically, the sperm of God, then He cannot be the Son of God and He would not have the eternal life of God within Him in order to overcome death. The life of God is in His Spirit and if the sperm of God was not the origin of the life of Jesus, then eternal life would not be in Jesus by God’s Spirit and God would have no power or authority to redeem man from death and sin. The redemption of man is only possible through someone who is both, the Son of man and the Son of the Living God. This is why Jesus is the only way, He is the only one  who was both the son of man and the Son of God. Jesus Christ was born of that which was subject to death and of that which is eternal. When Jesus was born and while He lived upon this earth, He was flesh and blood. There are many references that identify Jesus as both the Son of God and the Son of man and the only way that Jesus can be born both the Son of God and the Son of man, is for the sperm of God to be conceived by the egg of Mary within her womb. This is not a deep spiritual truth; this is simply a fact of life. If we retain, adhere to and apply this simple basic truth about conception and birth as we read through the Scriptures, it will go a long way in removing the mystery between the relationship of our Heavenly Father and His Son.

Hi Klondike,
I again appreciate your concern for explaining the same thing again as with more details. You have not answered my questions fully. I also believe nothing is impossible to God, if so He can create a sperm of man but you say that God has some  sperm I don't agree with this theory. God is immortal and is Spirit in nature He can not possess any mortality like sperm in Him if so it is against His nature.

You also say that ” If Jesus Christ was not born of the seed of, or specifically, the sperm of God, then He cannot be the Son of God and He would not have the eternal life of God within Him in order to overcome death. The life of God is in His Spirit and if the sperm of God was not the origin of the life of Jesus, then eternal life would not be in Jesus by God’s Spirit and God would have no power or authority to redeem man from death and sin”

where is the proof for such understandings in the scriptures. We were told that Jesus overcame death not by himself but by the Spirit of God. See the verse in Acts 10:38, 40

38 “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him”
40 “Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly”

and also Rom 8:11

11 “If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you”

How clearly it says that God raised Jesus from the dead not because Jesus was having the Father's so called sperm as you say. I think you are going in a different myth of God can beget God. Jesus rose from the dead by the power of Holy Spirit and we will all be risen from the dead in a similar way on the Last day. I believe there will not be any difference in Jesus resurrection our resurrection. You preach some different doctrine to prove some mythological birth of Jesus which is not according to the scriptures.
Please think over
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (klondike @ June 29 2008,01:42)

From the historical point of view there are a lot of references that state that the Trinity theology wasn’t developed until around three-hundred AD and then it took fifty to one hundred years or more to become fully established. Because the church continued to grow, it became politically advantageous to incorporate the church into the political realm.  Because there were various and differing doctrines within the church, they wanted to get together and form a common belief.    It was about the year 325 at the Council of Nicea that the church set out to officially define their position on the Godhead. There were differing beliefs on whether or not to equate Jesus to the substance of God and there were also differing beliefs on their equality.      Other writings state that even though the Trinity theology was officially established, the Trinity theology wasn’t readily accepted by everyone and that it wasn’t until around the fifth century that the Trinity theology quit becoming a focus of serious controversy within the Catholic faith. Some writings state that one of the earlier arguments that was presented within the early Catholic Church, was that there was only the Father and the Son and others wanted to include the Holy Spirit as well.  It was during this same period of time, while the discussions over the development of the Trinity theology were in progress, that the doctrine of Mary was also being developed and Mary was also considered to be one of the three persons within the Trinity. The reason that they considered Mary in their theology of the Trinity, was that even today Catholic belief states that Mary has a place in the redemption of man. Even though they had considered Mary to be included within the Trinity, they settled on the Holy Spirit instead. Most Christians have never associated the doctrine of the Trinity with the doctrine of Mary, and the one might not have been purposely established in order to create or establish the other, but according to the Catholic’s own historical writings, the doctrine of the Trinity is essential in establishing the redemptive work of Mary. While most claim that the doctrine of the Trinity is to establish the Deity of Jesus, in reality, at least within the Catholic theology, it serves to undermine the Deity of Jesus, in order to establish the deity of Mary. The original purpose of the Trinity theology is to establish Jesus as God. With Jesus established as God, the Mary doctrine establishes Mary as the Mother of God. To establish Mary as the Mother of God, establishes her as deity and gives her a role in the redemption of man. Even though I do not ascribe to Catholic theology, I must give them the recognition, that the Trinity theology within their denomination, at least serves a purpose.

Why are you explaining about the trinity when this tread is on preexsisting of Jesus? If you want to discuss the trinity please go to that tread.
I do want to ask you something about Maria, but not no here. Go to a proper tread, please and I will say something about Maria.
Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,20:44)

Hi not3, Is God bound by the human definition of men?

Nick,

We have to have something to work with.

Words have meaning.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Irene @ June 29 2008,04:50)

Quote (klondike @ June 29 2008,01:42) From the historical point of view there are a lot of references that state that the Trinity theology wasn’t developed until around three-hundred AD and then it took fifty to one hundred years or more to become fully established. Because the church continued to grow, it became politically advantageous to incorporate the church into the political realm.  Because there were various and differing doctrines within the church, they wanted to get together and form a common belief.    It was about the year 325 at the Council of Nicea that the church set out to officially define their position on the Godhead. There were differing beliefs on whether or not to equate Jesus to the substance of God and there were also differing beliefs on their equality.      Other writings state that even though the Trinity theology was officially established, the Trinity theology wasn’t readily accepted by everyone and that it wasn’t until around the fifth century that the Trinity theology quit becoming a focus of serious controversy within the Catholic faith. Some writings state that one of the earlier arguments that was presented within the early Catholic Church, was that there was only the Father and the Son and others wanted to include the Holy Spirit as well.  It was during this same period of time, while the discussions over the development of the Trinity theology were in progress, that the doctrine of Mary was also being developed and Mary was also considered to be one of the three persons within the Trinity. The reason that they considered Mary in their theology of the Trinity, was that even today Catholic belief states that Mary has a place in the redemption of man. Even though they had considered Mary to be included within the Trinity, they settled on the Holy Spirit instead. Most Christians have never associated the doctrine of the Trinity with the doctrine of Mary, and the one might not have been purposely established in order to create or establish the other, but according to the Catholic’s own historical writings, the doctrine of the Trinity is essential in establishing the redemptive work of Mary. While most claim that the doctrine of the Trinity is to establish the Deity of Jesus, in reality, at least within the Catholic theology, it serves to undermine the Deity of Jesus, in order to establish the deity of Mary. The original purpose of the Trinity theology is to establish Jesus as God. With Jesus established as God, the Mary doctrine establishes Mary as the Mother of God. To establish Mary as the Mother of God, establishes her as deity and gives her a role in the redemption of man. Even though I do not ascribe to Catholic theology, I must give them the recognition, that the Trinity theology within their denomination, at least serves a purpose. Why are you explaining about the trinity when this tread is on preexsisting of Jesus?  If you want to discuss the trinity please go to that tread. I do want to ask you something about Maria, but not no here. Go to a proper tread, please and I will say something about Maria. Irene

Sis,

Give him a break and hear him out, please. His post is not just on the Trinity, he is trying to establish the relationship between God, Jesus and Mary. Read it again and try not to be so critical.

Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2008,20:45)

Hello Mandy, Transferring someone into a different body is not at all unlike something God would do if you realize that believers will also be transferred into a new body in the future.  We are going to “morph” into another form.  When we get our new body, it will be a spiritual body, not a conceived body.  I don't know if we are told how that spiritual body comes about but I believe it will be the new vessel for our spirit.  We will go from one body to the next.  From the corruptible to the incorruptible.  (I am not teaching reincarnation here.  We aren't going from one corruptible body to the next corruptible body to the next corruptible body and so on.)  We will also experience the weird and wonderful chemistry change.  The Son of God and humans are much more than “projects” for God, we are His children.  We rejoice that we will be transferred into a new vessel.  No more arthritis or pain in your knees.:) It is actually pretty awesome to think about the whole idea of getting transferred, not something to downplay.  It would make a great NOVA special, eh?  It would likely be even more amazing than conception.   Love, Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Yes, when we are raised we will be like him. Like him how? Adam was from the earth and has an earthly body, Jesus was from heaven and is as heavenly bodies. Yes, we will be “transfered” as you say, into our new spiritual bodies.

However, concluding from the scriptures that Jesus was “transfered” prior to his conception in Mary cannot be support sufficiently through the gospels or any other scripture. Certainly the theory holds no weight in the OT.

True conception will not allow for these strange ideas.

[Anonymous]

Excuse me if I'm in the wrong tread. I'm not very computer literate and I don't know how to move around that well and I'm still learning your format.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The word seed is Strongs # 4690 and is translated Sperma. The sperma of God is synominous for His Spirit.
How is it that John can say that the sperm of God is within us. The sperm of God is interchangeable with His Spirit.

God does not need a lot of sperm, He only needed one and that one only need be created and deposited within Mary at the conception. I guess I cannot explain it any better than that. Sorry if I fall short.

Jesus Christ body was flesh, just like ours. Jesus Christ has a soul, just like we do and the Spirit of God is in Him just as He is in us. Jesus Christ in the flesh died, just like we shall and except that our body shall see corruption, we shall be raised from the dead just as He was. Amen

To establish the idea that Jesus was in the loins of His Father since the beginning of eternity is a spiritual truth that is also carried out in the physical. This train of thought is established in Hebrews chapter seven, verses nine and ten where the author states that Levi paid tithes while yet in the loins of Abraham, even though Levi was generations away. It is also established when Jesus is referred to as the seed of David [Romans 1: 3] and also in God’s promise to Abraham when God states the promise was to Abraham’s seed, which is Christ [Galatians 3: 16]. If the seed of Levi was in the loins of Abraham while he was yet generations away, then the seed of Jesus was also in the loins of David, Abraham and Adam. If Jesus was in the loins of His physical fathers since their creation, it is not unreasonable to accept that He was in the loins of His Heavenly Father since the beginning of eternity as well.

My son was within me, yet he did not exist until he was begotten of me. I'm looking at the overhaul concept without trying to get lost in the details. The Son of God was within the Father since the beginning, yet He did not exist until He was begotten.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2008,05:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2008,20:45) Hello Mandy, Transferring someone into a different body is not at all unlike something God would do if you realize that believers will also be transferred into a new body in the future.  We are going to “morph” into another form.  When we get our new body, it will be a spiritual body, not a conceived body.  I don't know if we are told how that spiritual body comes about but I believe it will be the new vessel for our spirit.  We will go from one body to the next.  From the corruptible to the incorruptible.  (I am not teaching reincarnation here.  We aren't going from one corruptible body to the next corruptible body to the next corruptible body and so on.)  We will also experience the weird and wonderful chemistry change.  The Son of God and humans are much more than “projects” for God, we are His children.  We rejoice that we will be transferred into a new vessel.  No more arthritis or pain in your knees.:) It is actually pretty awesome to think about the whole idea of getting transferred, not something to downplay.  It would make a great NOVA special, eh?  It would likely be even more amazing than conception.   Love, Kathi Hi Kathi, Yes, when we are raised we will be like him.  Like him how?  Adam was from the earth and has an earthly body, Jesus was from heaven and is as heavenly bodies.  Yes, we will be “transfered” as you say, into our new spiritual bodies. However, concluding from the scriptures that Jesus was “transfered” prior to his conception in Mary cannot be support sufficiently through the gospels or any other scripture.  Certainly the theory holds no weight in the OT. True conception will not allow for these strange ideas.

Hi Mandy

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2008,05:13)

True conception will not allow for these strange ideas.

The problem is “true conception” involves a woman and a man.

God is Spirit and does not have sperm. He created the body of Yeshua through conception apart from a man. Thats all the information that we have.

But we do have this…

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Heb 10:5

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Heb 10:7

If God wanted a “True conception” he could have done what he did with John the baptist and filled him with the Holy Ghost from the womb.

So we have the Monogenes, “Unique” Son of God.

No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. Jn 1:18

[NickHassan]

Hi KD,
You say
” The life of God is in His Spirit and if the sperm of God was not the origin of the life of Jesus, then eternal life would not be in Jesus by God’s Spirit and God would have no power or authority to redeem man from death and sin. “

Jesus did not receive the Spirit of his God till the anointing at the Jordan.

Lk3
21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The second Adam BECAME a life giving spirit.
1Cor15
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The MAN Jesus lost his own spirit at Calvary.
Mat27.
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

He was like us in all ways except sin.
We in Christ have our own spirit and the Holy Spirit within.

Rom8
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

[Author]

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