Preexistence

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,17:03)

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,16:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK, No destiny here only preexistence please. GM… I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit Blessings What does predestination have to do with preexistence? Correct me if i am wrong….you believe the scriptures where it talks about Jesus being from “of old” and from “the founding of the world” (just looked again..i see one of your views on this)…and “before abraham I am”…that he just existed in GOD's thoughts..correct…and that God destined Jesus… No that isn't what I believe at all. I believe the future Jesus was with God as the logos and was God.  What do you believe, and what is the point you are driving at?

Hi Mandy,
What is this “I believe the future Jesus was with God as the logos and was God”?
I could not follow this line, do you believe this?
Thanks
Adam

[NickHassan]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,16:55)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,16:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK, No destiny here only preexistence please. GM… I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit Blessings What does predestination have to do with preexistence? Correct me if i am wrong….you believe the scriptures where it talks about Jesus being from “of old” and from “the founding of the world” (just looked again..i see one of your views on this)…and “before abraham I am”…that he just existed in GOD's thoughts..correct…and that God destined Jesus…

Hi DK,
Are God's thoughts with Him?
Are you with your thoughts?
Don't lose them!

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,20:51)

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,16:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK, No destiny here only preexistence please. GM… I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit Blessings What does predestination have to do with preexistence? Correct me if i am wrong….you believe the scriptures where it talks about Jesus being from “of old” and from “the founding of the world” (just looked again..i see one of your views on this)…and “before abraham I am”…that he just existed in GOD's thoughts..correct…and that God destined Jesus… Hi DK, Are God's thoughts with Him? Are you with your thoughts? Don't lose them!

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,17:51)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,17:03) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,16:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK, No destiny here only preexistence please. GM… I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit Blessings What does predestination have to do with preexistence? Correct me if i am wrong….you believe the scriptures where it talks about Jesus being from “of old” and from “the founding of the world” (just looked again..i see one of your views on this)…and “before abraham I am”…that he just existed in GOD's thoughts..correct…and that God destined Jesus… No that isn't what I believe at all. I believe the future Jesus was with God as the logos and was God.  What do you believe, and what is the point you are driving at? Hi Mandy, What is this “I believe the future Jesus was with God as the logos and was God”? I could not follow this line, do you believe this? Thanks Adam

Adam,

My theology is unique here, I have not run into anyone who believes quite like I do (I guess that should say something right there, huh? ).

I believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God. Pretty basic stuff. In other words, He fathered Jesus very much like you fathered your children. His holy spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived their son. God provided what was needed (a sperm). Jesus is therefore both son of man AND Son of God. This how I see scripture playing out.

Jesus emptied himself of his rights and privileges as a royal Son and lived like you and me. But even the disciples wanted to know, “What manner of man this is?”. Jesus was a unique man.

He was the firstborn of the *new* creation. We will follow him. This is God's plan that many brother's would follow Christ in becoming this *new* creation. Here is something to ponder: Jesus' sonship position did not change when he died and was raised to life. He was still God's only begotten Son. However when we die and are raised, we will be *changed* into this new creation AND we will be adopted. Why didn't Jesus experience these things? Because he already belonged.

Anyway, these are some initial thoughts on my unique theology. The scriptures lend themselves, certainly, to these beliefs as they do towards other's represented here.

Therefore, I believe that the potential Son existed with God in the beginning – so much as he was God. Just as your potential son is with you and is you (until he is conceived and born; until you release that part of you that will become your future son, your sperm at conception).

Thanks,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Oh! my God! finally you came out with your new concepts. Hats up to you for so much thoughtful description of coming of Jesus the Son Of the only God. First after seing that line you quoted earlier I was shocked that you are also going into some preexistence theory. I am happy you are no where near that mythology. So you don't believe in any literal preexistence of Jesus but as a hidden potential of sonship in God Himself. Here again some freeky question to you; How can a God who is invisible and immortal can produce a sperm of mortal nature from Himself? How can a God who is far beyond our nature can involve Himself personally in the conception process of a mortal being like Jesus?
I know these are some tricky questions, but I often get them whenever you say God was literal Father of Jesus the son of man.
Peace to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Hi Adam,

Quote

Oh! my God! finally you came out with your new concepts. Hats up to you for so much thoughtful description of coming of Jesus the Son Of the only God.

I know, I know, I haven't been as “in your face” with my theories as other's here. I started out that way but realized that other's were just as passionate about their interpretations, and as I studied I realized as well that there is more than one way to view scripture. So, I've taken a back seat to other's and have done more pondering and studying, and less arguing. There are enough folks on here who like to argue to keep it going nicely.

Quote

Here again some freeky question to you; How can a God who is invisible and immortal can produce a sperm of mortal nature from Himself?

The full truth is that I don't know. However this invisible and immortal God produced Adam. While Adam came from the dust of the earth and had life breathed into him, God still called him a son, we are his decendents and will be adopted someday. I know that Jesus will never be adopted. Have you ever wondered why that is?

Anyway, I believe that with God all things are possible. If God created man, certainly he could create a sperm that held his DNA, per se, inside of it. This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. His contribution was not of “mortal nature” it was of a “divine nature” as God is not a man. This is the exact reason why Jesus is the firstborn, the new creation. We will follow him. Remember, we will be adopted, but Jesus already belongs. If he was only a mere man, he would also need to be adopted.

Quote

How can a God who is far beyond our nature can involve Himself personally in the conception process of a mortal being like Jesus?

Because he wanted a son in his image, from his own body, a true Son.

Mandy

[gollamudi]

Nice reply Mandy,
Let me not trouble you much, one small correction to your belief of Jesus being the first born in the new creation; Jesus became first born in new creation not when he was born as human but when he was born of Spirit of God that is at his resurrection. Now he is permanetly has become the life-giving Spirit to give life to all in the new creation I mean at our corporeal resurrection on the Last day.
That's why Paul calls him as last Adam means he is the end of first creation by his human birth and also became the first born in the new creation as the first born from the dead.
I hope you will think over on these lines.
Thanks
Adam

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,00:53)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,17:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,17:03) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,16:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK, No destiny here only preexistence please. GM… I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit Blessings What does predestination have to do with preexistence? Correct me if i am wrong….you believe the scriptures where it talks about Jesus being from “of old” and from “the founding of the world” (just looked again..i see one of your views on this)…and “before abraham I am”…that he just existed in GOD's thoughts..correct…and that God destined Jesus… No that isn't what I believe at all. I believe the future Jesus was with God as the logos and was God.  What do you believe, and what is the point you are driving at? Hi Mandy, What is this “I believe the future Jesus was with God as the logos and was God”? I could not follow this line, do you believe this? Thanks Adam Adam, My theology is unique here, I have not run into anyone who believes quite like I do (I guess that should say something right there, huh?   ). I believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God.  Pretty basic stuff.  In other words, He fathered Jesus very much like you fathered your children.  His holy spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived their son.  God provided what was needed (a sperm).  Jesus is therefore both son of man AND Son of God.  This how I see scripture playing out. Jesus emptied himself of his rights and privileges as a royal Son and lived like you and me.  But even the disciples wanted to know, “What manner of man this is?”.  Jesus was a unique man. He was the firstborn of the *new* creation.  We will follow him.  This is God's plan that many brother's would follow Christ in becoming this *new* creation.  Here is something to ponder:  Jesus' sonship position did not change when he died and was raised to life.  He was still God's only begotten Son.  However when we die and are raised, we will be *changed* into this new creation AND we will be adopted.  Why didn't Jesus experience these things?  Because he already belonged. Anyway, these are some initial thoughts on my unique theology.  The scriptures lend themselves, certainly, to these beliefs as they do towards other's represented here. Therefore, I believe that the potential Son existed with God in the beginning – so much as he was God.  Just as your potential son is with you and is you (until he is conceived and born; until you release that part of you that will become your future son, your sperm at conception). Thanks, Mandy

Hi not3,
Adam was a royal son too then.

Lk3
38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Did he have to empty himself of any rights and powers?

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
“Firstborn from the dead” is another issue unrelated to his sonship to God.
God affirmed that sonship while he lived many times

Lk3
21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick,
Please read my post once again I am only talking about the new creation that Jesus was the first born into that new creation by raising from the dead as first in the order.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
God affirmed his sonship from the time of the Jordan.
That is when he was reborn of the Spirit.
We too follow him into that death and resurrection while we live.

Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

We have already passed over from death to life.[Jn5]
We are the sons of the resurrection already and all creation awaits the revelation of those sons.

Romans 8:19
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick,
There is no clash with you on the Son-ship of Jesus I agree with you. I was only replying Mandy on the first born of new creation.
Thanks
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,04:51)

Hi not3, Adam was a royal son too then. Lk3 38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Notice that Adam is considered a “son of God.” But Jesus is considered to be the “Only begotten Son of God.” There is a difference.

When God spoke to Abraham and told him he was going to have a son from “his own body”, Abraham was relieved because he had planned to leave his inheritence to a “servant”.

Moses was a “servant” over God's house, but Jesus is a “Son” over God's house. Again, there is a difference.

[Not3in1]

Hi Adam,
Thanks for your reply.

Quote

Jesus became first born in new creation not when he was born as human but when he was born of Spirit of God that is at his resurrection.

If this is true, then how come Jesus doesn't need to be adopted, but we do?

[gollamudi]

So there is a point my sister, therefore you can not assume Jesus as the first born of new creation only. Here only I differ with many that Jesus was the first born not in the order of birth but in God's given rank as mentioned in Col 1:15-17 this is the point even WJ argues with Nick and T8. I know we can not believe in preexistence that Jesus was born from God in a mystical way before the foundations of the world as Arians and JW believe. I am praying God to give us understanding of these unknown things of Jesus birth and nature.
May God help us to understand the origins of His beloved Son Jesus.
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 28 2008,05:29)

So there is a point my sister, therefore you can not assume Jesus as the first born of new creation only.

Can you elaborate on this, please?
Thanks,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,05:08)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,04:51) Hi not3, Adam was a royal son too then. Lk3 38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Notice that Adam is considered a “son of God.”  But Jesus is considered to be the “Only begotten Son of God.”  There is a difference. When God spoke to Abraham and told him he was going to have a son from “his own body”, Abraham was relieved because he had planned to leave his inheritence to a “servant”. Moses was a “servant” over God's house, but Jesus is a “Son” over God's house.  Again, there is a difference.

Hi not3,
The beloved MONOGENES Son was sent into the world.
Adam was not.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,08:51)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,05:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,04:51) Hi not3, Adam was a royal son too then. Lk3 38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Notice that Adam is considered a “son of God.”  But Jesus is considered to be the “Only begotten Son of God.”  There is a difference. When God spoke to Abraham and told him he was going to have a son from “his own body”, Abraham was relieved because he had planned to leave his inheritence to a “servant”. Moses was a “servant” over God's house, but Jesus is a “Son” over God's house.  Again, there is a difference. Hi not3, The beloved MONOGENES Son was sent into the world. Adam was not.

What is the difference then between Adam's sonship and Jesus' sonship?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
The Son Jesus was from everlasting as far as his own origins go.
Adam was of the breath of God into the dust.

[Anonymous]

Jesus Christ was born of the seed,[sperm] of God. If God is eternal, then God's seed is eternal as well. Jesus was born of the seed of David, from the seed of Abraham, from the seed of Adam who is subject to death and through whom all who descended from Adam are subject to death as well. Adam was created in the image of God, we are born after the image Adam. In Adam we die, because Adam died. It was necessary for Jesus to be born of the seed of man who is subject to death in order to redeem man from death because of sin. It was necessary for Jesus to be born of the seed of God, in whom is eternal life in order to give eternal life. Jesus was before Abraham, because being born of the eternal seed of God. Jesus was from above because He was with the Father, in the Father, came forth from the Father.

Col 1: 15-17 this scripture does not say that Jesus created THE heavens and THE earth. This Scripture says that He created all things that are IN the heavens and IN the earth. It does not say that He created THE heavens and the earth, whether its the sun, moon, stars, the animals the birds the fishes and man. It says He created all things IN the Heavens and IN the earth whether it's thrones, dominions, principalities or powers. Verse 13 states that we are delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of God's Son. These Scriptures are in reference to the creation of the Kingdom of God's Son and the authority of the Son in His creation. By His resurrection He has been given all authority within His kingdom and he establishes all positions of power and authority within His Kingdom because He is the Head of His Kingdom.

The word God is not specific to the only true God. The word God is generic and is in reference to positions of authority and to positions of divinity. When we keep the word God specific to a position and a title we get a better understanding of the position and the title of that The Son of God was given by His Father. If an earthly King was to have a Son, his son would be born into a position royalty and his son would be worthy of the respect that was due to the one within the position. The word god is specific to a position and can also be one's title. The word God, is not God's name, it is His position and His title. Jesus was born into the position of God, because His Father was God. Jesus was divinity, because He was born into divinity.
If and earthly king had a son, he could set his son upon the throne and anoint his son as king. He could place the entire kingdom under the hand of his son and his son would answer to no one but his Father. Because the word God is a position and a title, the Almighty God can set His Son upon the throne and place the the works of His hands under His Sons authority and the Son would answer to no one but the Father.
Hebrews 1:9 [King James Version] Thou has loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above they fellows.
Hebrews 1: 9 [direct rendering of Nestle Greek Version] Thou loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore, anointed thee god, the god of thee. with oil of gladness above the partners of thee.
To be anointed by a king or to be anointed as king by the king is a big difference. Jesus was born, into divinity, anointed god, by God and was given authority over the works of His hands [Hebrews 2: 7].

In the beginning was the Word, but the Word did not become flesh until four thousand years later. The word god is generic and the word logos is the spoken word. In the generic sense of the word, god, a king would fulfill this position. If the king is god, then his word is god as well. If a king speaks, that which he speaks carries the authority of he who spoke. if a peasant was to speak, his words would have no authority, because the peasant has no authority. God's Word is God, because the Word originated from God. When God speaks, what He speaks comes to pass, because His Word carries His authority. God's Word is God, because God is God.
From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. God is invisible. What God is, His nature, His character, His love, is manifest in the Words that He spoke since the beginning. Because man has eyes but cannot see and ears that cannot hear, the logos of God became flesh. Four- thousand years later.

[Author]

Posts