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Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,17:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2008,15:34) Hi GM,
Prov 30
4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?Do you think the Son mentioned here was not actually a son at all yet?
Hi Nick,
They are all prophetic verses you have quoted. Jesus is the one who has ascended as a son of man he will also descend at his second coming. Please rememeber one thing no son of man can live in heaven except he is resurrected and born again in spirit.
Peace to you
Adam
Hi GM,
So the son who did not exist had a name?
Calling everything prophetic does not wash.Hi GM,
Eph4
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Agreed that this part of Prov 30 is prophetic.
Agreed no son of man can ascend to heaven as flesh and blood.But the named son of God is not just a son of man but his origins are from everlasting.
Come on my brother, is it written there that Jesus descended from heaven before he had ascended into heaven? It says he descended into the lower parts of the earth when he died and resurrected he has set the captives free and he also preached to the spirits in prison' Please see 1 Pet 3:18-19
18 “For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison”You read about Jesus' death and resurrection first then you will understand this better.
take care
AdamHi t8,
Quote So pre-2000 years ago, such a being was not at God's right hand side until approximately 33 AD give or take a variation of decades. Hmmmm.
Jesus was not exalted to the right hand of God until after his sacrifice of himself. Because he did not love his life unto death, God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name above every name.What kind of gift or honor would this be if he had it already and it was just being restored? Kind of like giving someone a Christmas gift one year and then giving it to them all wrapped up again (like it was new) another year…..
Quote Can I ask you who the firstborn of all creation is if Jesus isn't the firstborn of all creation. Who was the first to come into existence, if it wasn't the Word that was with God.
Here it looks like you are correlating two events that perhaps are not intended to go together (Jesus being the “firstborn” AND the “first to come into existence”).Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. This has nothing to do with coming into existence as far as I am aware.
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Which creation? This can be interpreted two ways (1. beginning of time 2. the new creation that all brothers will follow him in. Again this relates to the firstborn FROM THE DEAD).Quote If it wasn't Wisdom, then was it an angel? Maybe Satan in his previous role, or Michael, or what?
It doesn't have to be anyBODY. God never says he has an only-begotten-spirit-son by his side doing anything.Quote Who sat at God's right hand side before Jesus did?
The answer is no one. God said he was alone. Alone in creating the world, and alone when he breathed into Adam the first man. There were heavenly hosts, but they did not take part in creating or begotten sonship.Quote Some valid questions that need to be asked regarding this theory.
Yes, and the ability to look beyond a theory that you have been convinced of for so long. As any bible student knows, there usually is more than one way to view scripture. If scripture lends itself to another theory, don't just shut it out but realize that there may be two or three different explainations that all *seem to* fit.Quote In heaven, I would expect to see Jesus and God's glory, but not God himself. Only the son has seen him and can declare him. That is why Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. But pre-2000 years ago, according to your theory, no one saw the fullness of God's glory in bodily form. They jsut sw God's glory in each other and creation.
Why is this so hard to accept? They saw God's glory through the cloud and through the fire that led the children at night. They saw God's glory during the giving of the 10 Commandments and massive display's of God's grace in the dessert….It is inference to believe Jesus had to see the Father before coming to earth and that is why he can say no one has seen the Fathe but the Son. Jesus also told his disciples that he had bread to eat that they did not know of. Why would it be so ridiculous to believe that he saw the Father after he was born a man? Perhaps they had pow-wow's and training times that no one knew of?
Quote Doesn't that fit perfectly with a Jesus who emptied himself of his former glory and came as a lowly man, and humbled himself to death and went to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was.
Please take a look at the “Value of a sacrifice” thread. It is my opinion that if Jesus was merely doing this earth-gig for a temporary time period while waiting for his former glory to be restored, well, it makes his “sacrifice” mean very little.Quote “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23
Indeed the LORD brought Jesus forth because he was appointed from eternity and before the world began…. It says he was appointed before the world began, NOT that he was alive and brought into existence before the world began. In my opinion this is a key note not to be missed.Thanks,
MandyMandy! Since I agree with t8 and Nick I find it not neccassry to give you my opinion. It is the same then t8. I could have not said any better.
Especially about the invisible God. Where else was He like the invisible God, before the wold was? All Scriptures fit. Line upon Line, precepts upon precepts.
Love IreneIrene,
If you are not willing to look at other's opinions then I will not waste my time giving you my understanding of the scriptures you have asked of me. It takes time and I believe your mind is already made up and not willing to bend towards anything than what you are already convinced of. My morning is already getting busy so I'd rather not spend more time writing something that will not get more than a glance and no real thought.By the way, scripture does not say that before the world was that Jesus was like the invisible God? God has always remained invisible. When Jesus was born (and able to be seen himself), he was God's representative in the flesh. He was in God's stead. He could not have been such in heaven. God didn't need a representative in heaven…..He lives there!
Hi Mandy,
That's another wonderful post. Your way of answering T8 is some thing different, hope he will not misunderstand. I appreciate your care and pain in replying those difficult questions. I am blessed by them.
Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,01:56) Irene,
If you are not willing to look at other's opinions then I will not waste my time giving you my understanding of the scriptures you have asked of me. It takes time and I believe your mind is already made up and not willing to bend towards anything than what you are already convinced of. My morning is already getting busy so I'd rather not spend more time writing something that will not get more than a glance and no real thought.By the way, scripture does not say that before the world was that Jesus was like the invisible God? God has always remained invisible. When Jesus was born (and able to be seen himself), he was God's representative in the flesh. He was in God's stead. He could not have been such in heaven. God didn't need a representative in heaven…..He lives there!
And I did not want to waste mine that is why I wrote what I did.
IreneQuote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,00:57) Hi t8, Quote So pre-2000 years ago, such a being was not at God's right hand side until approximately 33 AD give or take a variation of decades. Hmmmm.
Jesus was not exalted to the right hand of God until after his sacrifice of himself. Because he did not love his life unto death, God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name above every name.What kind of gift or honor would this be if he had it already and it was just being restored? Kind of like giving someone a Christmas gift one year and then giving it to them all wrapped up again (like it was new) another year…..
Quote Can I ask you who the firstborn of all creation is if Jesus isn't the firstborn of all creation. Who was the first to come into existence, if it wasn't the Word that was with God.
Here it looks like you are correlating two events that perhaps are not intended to go together (Jesus being the “firstborn” AND the “first to come into existence”).Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. This has nothing to do with coming into existence as far as I am aware.
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Which creation? This can be interpreted two ways (1. beginning of time 2. the new creation that all brothers will follow him in. Again this relates to the firstborn FROM THE DEAD).Quote If it wasn't Wisdom, then was it an angel? Maybe Satan in his previous role, or Michael, or what?
It doesn't have to be anyBODY. God never says he has an only-begotten-spirit-son by his side doing anything.Quote Who sat at God's right hand side before Jesus did?
The answer is no one. God said he was alone. Alone in creating the world, and alone when he breathed into Adam the first man. There were heavenly hosts, but they did not take part in creating or begotten sonship.Quote Some valid questions that need to be asked regarding this theory.
Yes, and the ability to look beyond a theory that you have been convinced of for so long. As any bible student knows, there usually is more than one way to view scripture. If scripture lends itself to another theory, don't just shut it out but realize that there may be two or three different explainations that all *seem to* fit.Quote In heaven, I would expect to see Jesus and God's glory, but not God himself. Only the son has seen him and can declare him. That is why Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. But pre-2000 years ago, according to your theory, no one saw the fullness of God's glory in bodily form. They jsut sw God's glory in each other and creation.
Why is this so hard to accept? They saw God's glory through the cloud and through the fire that led the children at night. They saw God's glory during the giving of the 10 Commandments and massive display's of God's grace in the dessert….It is inference to believe Jesus had to see the Father before coming to earth and that is why he can say no one has seen the Fathe but the Son. Jesus also told his disciples that he had bread to eat that they did not know of. Why would it be so ridiculous to believe that he saw the Father after he was born a man? Perhaps they had pow-wow's and training times that no one knew of?
Quote Doesn't that fit perfectly with a Jesus who emptied himself of his former glory and came as a lowly man, and humbled himself to death and went to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was.
Please take a look at the “Value of a sacrifice” thread. It is my opinion that if Jesus was merely doing this earth-gig for a temporary time period while waiting for his former glory to be restored, well, it makes his “sacrifice” mean very little.Quote “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23
Indeed the LORD brought Jesus forth because he was appointed from eternity and before the world began…. It says he was appointed before the world began, NOT that he was alive and brought into existence before the world began. In my opinion this is a key note not to be missed.Thanks,
Mandy
So Mandy…I'm lost a little here…I am trying to put myself in your thoughts here…Do you believe in destiny and predestination?Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK,
No destiny here only preexistence please.
GM…I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit
Blessings
Quotes I have gleaned from around the Web.
Quote When Micah prophesied concerning the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, he was careful to stress that Christ's goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. (Mic. 5:2). It is evident from the context that the Lord's eternal goings forth are put in contrast to His coming forth as a child in Bethlehem of Judea. It would be difficult to imagine the prophet's intention in using such terminology if they mean anything less than the eternal pre-existence of Christ. Quote That He was of higher than earthly origin and nature, He repeatedly asserts. “Ye are from beneath,” he says to the Jews (8:23), “I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world” (compare 17:16). Therefore, He taught that He, the Son of Man, had “descended out of heaven” (3:13), where was His true abode. This carried with it, of course, an assertion of pre-existence; and this pre-existence is explicitly affirmed: “What then,” He asks, “if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?” (6:62). It is not merely pre-existence, however, but eternal pre-existence which He claims for Himself: “And now, Father,” He prays (17:5), “glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (compare verse 24); and again, as the most impressive language possible, He declares (8:58 the King James Version): “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am,” where He claims for Himself the timeless present of eternity as His mode of existence. In the former of these two last cited passages, the character of His pre-existent life is intimated; in it He shared the Father's glory from all eternity (“before the world was”); He stood by the Father's side as a companion in His glory. (“Person of Christ” emphasis added) Quote In the description of the incarnation given by the evangelist John there appears the term “Logos” in a sense new to the Scriptures, and among New-Testament writers peculiar to him. Some have maintained that it supplies an indubitable [unquestionable] ascription of personal existence to the Word, in some sense distinct from the personal existence of the supreme Father; that this Word is the Logos of the New Testament; and, consequently, that the phrase is a proof of a belief among the ancient Jews in the pre-existence, the personal operations, and the deity of the Messiah, “the Word who became flesh, and fixed his tabernacle among us” (“Incarnation”) …the repeated “with God” (verses 1, 2) compels us to distinguish the Logos from God; the words “became flesh” (verse 14) cannot be said of an attribute of God; and the Baptist's testimony, verse 15, in direct connection with this introduction (compare also such sayings of Christ as in chapters 8:58; 17:5), show clearly that John attributes personal pre-existence to the Logos. Similarly, every attempt to explain away this profound sense of Logos is inadequate, and most are ungrammatical. (“Logos”)
Wayne Jackson forcefully makes the point respecting the relationship between John's use of “Logos” and the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.
There is an interesting contrast between the eternal existence of the LOGOS and the incarnate sojourn of the Son of God. “In the beginning was (a verb of continual timeless existence) the Word.” Yet, “the Word became (a verb denoting the commencement of His human existence in time) flesh.” In similar fashion, Christ Himself said, “Before Abraham was born (definite origin), I am (always existing).” (John 8:58). Thus, the LOGOS had a prehuman, timeless existence. (Jackson 1)
Quote 1 Cor 10:9 I have already supposed, in the note at 1 Cor 10:4, that Christ is intended by the spiritual rock that followed them: and that it was he, not the rock, that did follow or accompany the Israelites in the wilderness. This was the angel of God's presence who was with the church in the wilderness, to whom our fathers would not obey, as Stephen says, Acts 7:38 and 39. (Clarke) 1 Cor 10:4 The literal sense of that Rock was Christ is no more to be pressed than is the literal sense of “I am the true vine” (John 15:1). The was, rather than is, may, however, point to Christ's pre-existence (cf. 2 Cor 8:9; Gal 4:4). (Wycliffe)
The rock to which Paul referred here was clearly stated: “The rock was Christ.” The miracle of Moses' bringing forth water from the rock in the wilderness (Exo. 17:5ff) provided literal water for Israel; but much more than that is in evidence here. As Marsh said, “The rock was Christ, not 'is' or 'is a type of'…and this is a clear statement of the pre-existence of Christ.” (Paul W. Marsh qtd. in Coffman on 1 Corinthians 10:4)
The view preferred here is that Paul meant “Christ,” the same being another reference to his pre-existence, and indicating that our Lord's pre-incarnation activity included that of shepherding the chosen people in the wilderness. (Coffman on 1 Corinthians 10:9)
Consider the significance of what Paul penned in 2 Corinthians 8:9.
By the Spirit, Paul was led to write concerning Christ, “though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor…” (II Cor. 8:9). If Jesus did not preexist in grandeur and glory before His birth, when was He rich? Certainly not while on earth! He was born in a borrowed stable, rowed the Sea of Galilee in a borrowed boat, fed the multitudes with borrowed food, rode into Jerusalem on a borrowed beast, ate His last meal in a borrowed room and finally was buried in a borrowed tomb. He once announced, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head” (Luke 9:58). (Jackson 2)
No passage more directly or more dramatically attests to the pre-existence or pre-incarnate state of Jesus Christ than Philippians 2:5-11.
In this context, with one majestic sweep of his pen, Paul embraces Christ's 1. Preexistence (equality with God), 2. Incarnation (made in the likeness of men), 3. Coronation (God highly exalted Him). … Similarly, the Hebrew writer notes: 1. He made the worlds-indicating His pre-existence. 2. He made purification of sins having been sent in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin (Rom 8:3)-this involves the incarnation. 3. He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Heb. 1:2,3). (Jackson 2 emphasis added)
Quote 1. Christ is represented as his Father's messenger, or angel, being distinct from his Father, sent by his Father, long before his incarnation… The appearances of Christ to the patriarchs are described like the appearance of an angel, or man really distinct from God; yet one in whom God, or Jehovah, had a peculiar indwelling, or with whom the divine nature had a personal union. 2. Christ, when he came into the world, is said, in several passages of Scripture, to have divested himself of some glory which he had before his incarnation. …(John 17:4,5; 2 Cor 8:9). …Nor can it be said of Christ, as man, that he was rich, if he were never in a richer state before than while
he was on earth. 3. …that the soul of Jesus Christ should pre-exist, that it might have an opportunity to give its previous actual consent to the great and painful undertaking of making atonement for man's sins. …The covenant of redemption between the Father and the Son is therefore represented as being made before the foundation of the world. (“Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ” emphasis added)Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK,
No destiny here only preexistence please.
GM…I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit
Blessings
What does predestination have to do with preexistence?Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,16:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK,
No destiny here only preexistence please.
GM…I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit
Blessings
What does predestination have to do with preexistence?
Correct me if i am wrong….you believe the scriptures where it talks about Jesus being from “of old” and from “the founding of the world” (just looked again..i see one of your views on this)…and “before abraham I am”…that he just existed in GOD's thoughts..correct…and that God destined Jesus…Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,16:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK,
No destiny here only preexistence please.
GM…I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit
Blessings
What does predestination have to do with preexistence?
Correct me if i am wrong….you believe the scriptures where it talks about Jesus being from “of old” and from “the founding of the world” (just looked again..i see one of your views on this)…and “before abraham I am”…that he just existed in GOD's thoughts..correct…and that God destined Jesus…
No that isn't what I believe at all.I believe the future Jesus was with God as the logos and was God. What do you believe, and what is the point you are driving at?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,17:03) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,16:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,03:56) Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,03:26) Hi DK,
No destiny here only preexistence please.
GM…I addressed Mandy…When she answers me I will comment as I see fit
Blessings
What does predestination have to do with preexistence?
Correct me if i am wrong….you believe the scriptures where it talks about Jesus being from “of old” and from “the founding of the world” (just looked again..i see one of your views on this)…and “before abraham I am”…that he just existed in GOD's thoughts..correct…and that God destined Jesus…
No that isn't what I believe at all.I believe the future Jesus was with God as the logos and was God. What do you believe, and what is the point you are driving at?
Not driving at anything…just trying to be open minded and understand what you are saying…Quote (t8 @ June 27 2008,14:29) Quotes I have gleaned from around the Web. Quote When Micah prophesied concerning the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, he was careful to stress that Christ's goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. (Mic. 5:2). It is evident from the context that the Lord's eternal goings forth are put in contrast to His coming forth as a child in Bethlehem of Judea. It would be difficult to imagine the prophet's intention in using such terminology if they mean anything less than the eternal pre-existence of Christ. Quote That He was of higher than earthly origin and nature, He repeatedly asserts. “Ye are from beneath,” he says to the Jews (8:23), “I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world” (compare 17:16). Therefore, He taught that He, the Son of Man, had “descended out of heaven” (3:13), where was His true abode. This carried with it, of course, an assertion of pre-existence; and this pre-existence is explicitly affirmed: “What then,” He asks, “if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?” (6:62). It is not merely pre-existence, however, but eternal pre-existence which He claims for Himself: “And now, Father,” He prays (17:5), “glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (compare verse 24); and again, as the most impressive language possible, He declares (8:58 the King James Version): “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am,” where He claims for Himself the timeless present of eternity as His mode of existence. In the former of these two last cited passages, the character of His pre-existent life is intimated; in it He shared the Father's glory from all eternity (“before the world was”); He stood by the Father's side as a companion in His glory. (“Person of Christ” emphasis added) Quote In the description of the incarnation given by the evangelist John there appears the term “Logos” in a sense new to the Scriptures, and among New-Testament writers peculiar to him. Some have maintained that it supplies an indubitable [unquestionable] ascription of personal existence to the Word, in some sense distinct from the personal existence of the supreme Father; that this Word is the Logos of the New Testament; and, consequently, that the phrase is a proof of a belief among the ancient Jews in the pre-existence, the personal operations, and the deity of the Messiah, “the Word who became flesh, and fixed his tabernacle among us” (“Incarnation”) …the repeated “with God” (verses 1, 2) compels us to distinguish the Logos from God; the words “became flesh” (verse 14) cannot be said of an attribute of God; and the Baptist's testimony, verse 15, in direct connection with this introduction (compare also such sayings of Christ as in chapters 8:58; 17:5), show clearly that John attributes personal pre-existence to the Logos. Similarly, every attempt to explain away this profound sense of Logos is inadequate, and most are ungrammatical. (“Logos”)
Wayne Jackson forcefully makes the point respecting the relationship between John's use of “Logos” and the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.
There is an interesting contrast between the eternal existence of the LOGOS and the incarnate sojourn of the Son of God. “In the beginning was (a verb of continual timeless existence) the Word.” Yet, “the Word became (a verb denoting the commencement of His human existence in time) flesh.” In similar fashion, Christ Himself said, “Before Abraham was born (definite origin), I am (always existing).” (John 8:58). Thus, the LOGOS had a prehuman, timeless existence. (Jackson 1)
Quote 1 Cor 10:9 I have already supposed, in the note at 1 Cor 10:4, that Christ is intended by the spiritual rock that followed them: and that it was he, not the rock, that did follow or accompany the Israelites in the wilderness. This was the angel of God's presence who was with the church in the wilderness, to whom our fathers would not obey, as Stephen says, Acts 7:38 and 39. (Clarke) 1 Cor 10:4 The literal sense of that Rock was Christ is no more to be pressed than is the literal sense of “I am the true vine” (John 15:1). The was, rather than is, may, however, point to Christ's pre-existence (cf. 2 Cor 8:9; Gal 4:4). (Wycliffe)
The rock to which Paul referred here was clearly stated: “The rock was Christ.” The miracle of Moses' bringing forth water from the rock in the wilderness (Exo. 17:5ff) provided literal water for Israel; but much more than that is in evidence here. As Marsh said, “The rock was Christ, not 'is' or 'is a type of'…and this is a clear statement of the pre-existence of Christ.” (Paul W. Marsh qtd. in Coffman on 1 Corinthians 10:4)
The view preferred here is that Paul meant “Christ,” the same being another reference to his pre-existence, and indicating that our Lord's pre-incarnation activity included that of shepherding the chosen people in the wilderness. (Coffman on 1 Corinthians 10:9)
Consider the significance of what Paul penned in 2 Corinthians 8:9.
By the Spirit, Paul was led to write concerning Christ, “though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor…” (II Cor. 8:9). If Jesus did not preexist in grandeur and glory before His birth, when was He rich? Certainly not while on earth! He was born in a borrowed stable, rowed the Sea of Galilee in a borrowed boat, fed the multitudes with borrowed food, rode into Jerusalem on a borrowed beast, ate His last meal in a borrowed room and finally was buried in a borrowed tomb. He once announced, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head” (Luke 9:58). (Jackson 2)
No passage more directly or more dramatically attests to the pre-existence or pre-incarnate state of Jesus Christ than Philippians 2:5-11.
In this context, with one majestic sweep of his pen, Paul embraces Christ's 1. Preexistence (equality with God), 2. Incarnation (made in the likeness of men), 3. Coronation (God highly exalted Him). … Similarly, the Hebrew writer notes: 1. He made the worlds-indicating His pre-existence. 2. He made purification of sins having been sent in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin (Rom 8:3)-this involves the incarnation. 3. He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Heb. 1:2,3). (Jackson 2 emphasis added)
Quote 1. Christ is represented as his Father's messenger, or angel, being distinct from his Father, sent by his Father, long before his incarnation… The appearances of Christ to the patriarchs are described like the appearance of an angel, or man really distinct from God; yet one in whom God, or Jehovah, had a peculiar indwelling, or with whom the divine nature had a personal union. 2. Christ, when he came into the world, is said, in several passages of Scripture
, to have divested himself of some glory which he had before his incarnation. …(John 17:4,5; 2 Cor 8:9). …Nor can it be said of Christ, as man, that he was rich, if he were never in a richer state before than while he was on earth. 3. …that the soul of Jesus Christ should pre-exist, that it might have an opportunity to give its previous actual consent to the great and painful undertaking of making atonement for man's sins. …The covenant of redemption between the Father and the Son is therefore represented as being made before the foundation of the world. (“Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ” emphasis added)
basically my thoughts
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