Preexistence

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2008,15:04)

Hi not3, Hey we do not make the rules. if God chooses to break with tradition let Him.

That's the thing though, Nick. He chose not to break with tradition……Jesus was conceived! Had he chose to break with tradition perhaps he would have “beamed down Scotty” instead.

[942767]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,14:07)

Hi 94, Nice post my brother, any single scripture can not deviate from the overall concepts on God and Jesus it should have an internal witness. As I was mentioning no where the word “begotten God” was confirmed by either Jesus or Apostles but the the words “son of God or begotten son” are confirmed. Please take care Adam

Hi Brother:

Thanks for the encouragement. Someone is trying to confuse me, but I am not confused about what I believe. God has revealed to the church that is Jesus is His Only Begotten Son and His Christ in Matthew 16. Jesus said to the Apostle Peter, “Blessed art thou Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but my Father who is in heaven”. This is what our Heavenly Father has said to us and I have a witness by His Spirit dwelling within me that this is the truth. There is no need to try to find some other hidden truth.

God Bless

[Not3in1]

Quote (942767 @ June 05 2008,15:23)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,14:07) Hi 94, Nice post my brother, any single scripture can not deviate from the overall concepts on God and Jesus it should have an internal witness. As I was mentioning no where the word “begotten God” was confirmed by either Jesus or Apostles but the the words “son of God or begotten son” are confirmed. Please take care Adam Hi Brother: Thanks for the encouragement.  Someone is trying to confuse me, but I am not confused about what I believe.  God has revealed to the church that is Jesus is His Only Begotten Son and His Christ in Matthew 16.  Jesus said to the Apostle Peter, “Blessed art thou Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but my Father who is in heaven”.  This is what our Heavenly Father has said to us and I have a witness by His Spirit dwelling within me that this is the truth.  There is no need to try to find some other hidden truth. God Bless

Amen to that, bro!
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,19:43)

Hi LU, And the God begotten angels whom we will become like.

Hi Nick,
Could you show me where the exact word “begotten” is used in regards to angels.

Thanks,
LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,21:22)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,11:25) Mandy, When I speak of asexual reproduction, I am referring to the reproduction of God to form the begotten God before the foundation of the world.  I am not referring to Mary's conception. Kathi Hi Kathi, I know what you were referring to, but in my opinion you cannot seperate Jesus from his conception.  To do so is to go a bit out of bounds of scripture into inference and personal revelations…… The gospels speak of Jesus' entry into the world through conception.  However they do not speak of his former life as a begotten God.  Why do you think they left that part out?

God speaks beyond the dried ink.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:33)

WJ, I believe this is what you want me to address:

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2008,03:46)

Tell me LU, how many spirits did you drink or was baptised into? Does the Father live in you, or the Son or the Holy Spirit?

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:33)

I do not know what you mean when you ask how many spirits did I drink?

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:18

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:4

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:33)

I was baptized in the baptism of water to acknowledge the forgiveness of sins and to follow Christ and the Holy Spirit resides in me which is the spirit of the Father.

 

Is the Holy Spirit the personal Spirit of the Father?

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:33)

I have been given the spirit of the Son. Gal 4:6-7 God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ” Abba! Father!” NASU

Ok, so do you have 1 Spirit living in you or two?

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:33)

I do not think that the Son is omnipresent although His spirit is put into the heart of all God's children.

Well if Yeshua can dwell in the hearts of millions of believers all over the world and be with them and hear their prayers and make intersession for them all at the same time and be wherever the Spirit of God is, I would say that is omnipresent, wouldn’t you?

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:33)

I do believe that the Holy Spirit is able to be present wherever He wants to be.

True, but can the Holy Spirit be anywhere that the Father and Yeshua cannot be, if he can that would make the Holy Spirit greater than the Father and Yeshua, right?

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:33)

If anything can actually be omnipresent the Holy Spirit would be it.  Like, I would have trouble with the idea that the Holy Spirit is in my air conditioner or in my oven.

Well then how can you believe that he holds everything together right down to the molecular structure of things? Does he do this apart from his Spirit?

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:17

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,05:33)

If the Son is omnipresent then why would the Father have to put the spirit of the son in my heart.  If He was omnipresent, His spirit would already be there.

So are you saying, if God’s Spirit is not in my heart then he cannot be Omnipresent?

Did Yeshua have the Spirit at birth? If he did then what happened at the jordan?

John said “Yeshua would baptise men with the Holy Spirit and with fire” Imagine that, the Spirit of God being subservient to Yeshua.

LU, I think that the nature of the Spirit of God is the key to understanding who and what God is. Even though it would take all of eternity to understand the Nature of the infinite God that we serve, there are all kinds of clues given in the scriptures concerning that Spirit and his relation to the Father and Yeshua.

Here is a link of a discussion on the Spirit.

One Spirit.

Blessings!

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2008,23:23)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,14:07) Hi 94, Nice post my brother, any single scripture can not deviate from the overall concepts on God and Jesus it should have an internal witness. As I was mentioning no where the word “begotten God” was confirmed by either Jesus or Apostles but the the words “son of God or begotten son” are confirmed. Please take care Adam Hi Brother: Thanks for the encouragement.  Someone is trying to confuse me, but I am not confused about what I believe.  God has revealed to the church that is Jesus is His Only Begotten Son and His Christ in Matthew 16.  Jesus said to the Apostle Peter, “Blessed art thou Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but my Father who is in heaven”.  This is what our Heavenly Father has said to us and I have a witness by His Spirit dwelling within me that this is the truth.  There is no need to try to find some other hidden truth. God Bless

94,
God has revealed to the church that the Son is God and has a God.
Heb 1:8-9

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
NASU

There are internal witnesses but you can't see them for some reason 94 and you are certainly not alone. I am sorry for that but only God can open the eyes.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,18:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,19:43) Hi LU, And the God begotten angels whom we will become like. Hi Nick, Could you show me where the exact word “begotten” is used in regards to angels. Thanks, LU

Hi LU,
It isn't.
But some angels are sons[Jb38]
But it is used of Jesus, the Son who was sent into the world.
Ps 89
6For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2007,09:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,03:34) You can play with the word “natural birth” and try to say it means Jesus came into existence like you and me if you want, but if what you say is true then Jesus still didnt have a natural birth because he had no natural Father! And here is the mystery! Jesus did have a natural birth – Mary would slap your face if she heard you say otherwise!  She endured the pregnancy that not only brought her physical pain but social pain as well.  Mary endured the labor pains!  She gave birth to her son in the most “natural” way possible these days.  There were no labor drugs or epidurals in those days, mister.  So don't deny Mary her due. Indeed, Jesus did not have a “natural” Father.  But he   did have a Father……this is the mystery…….God provided what was needed to have a son of his very own.  A Son (so to speak) from his body.  A son, that like Abraham, he could leave his inheritence to.  Understanding this is to understand the who and what Jesus truly is.

 

You got it, I will slap His face too. Any woman that knows what Childbirth is will. And I also believe that Maria did give birth the Human way, since She was a Human being. How else would She have.
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Nick,
So, there can be created sons that are not considered begotten of God, but merely created of God.

[gollamudi]

Amen to that post Mrs (Seek)

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,19:04)

Nick, So, there can be created sons that are not considered begotten of God, but merely created of God.

Hi LU,
Yes, I would say so.
But does scripture actually say God created the angels?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (seek and you will find @ June 05 2008,18:55)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2007,09:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,03:34) You can play with the word “natural birth” and try to say it means Jesus came into existence like you and me if you want, but if what you say is true then Jesus still didnt have a natural birth because he had no natural Father! And here is the mystery! Jesus did have a natural birth – Mary would slap your face if she heard you say otherwise!  She endured the pregnancy that not only brought her physical pain but social pain as well.  Mary endured the labor pains!  She gave birth to her son in the most “natural” way possible these days.  There were no labor drugs or epidurals in those days, mister.  So don't deny Mary her due. Indeed, Jesus did not have a “natural” Father.  But he   did have a Father……this is the mystery…….God provided what was needed to have a son of his very own.  A Son (so to speak) from his body.  A son, that like Abraham, he could leave his inheritence to.  Understanding this is to understand the who and what Jesus truly is.   You got it, I will slap His face too. Any woman that knows what Childbirth is will. And I also believe that Maria did give birth the Human way, since She was a Human being. How else would She have. Peace and Love Irene

Mrs

So then you do not believe the birth of Yeshua from a virgin was supernatural?

Why do woman take pride over men for bearing children in pain because of the curse of disobedience?

[seek and you will find]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2008,19:11)

Quote (seek and you will find @ June 05 2008,18:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2007,09:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,03:34) You can play with the word “natural birth” and try to say it means Jesus came into existence like you and me if you want, but if what you say is true then Jesus still didnt have a natural birth because he had no natural Father! And here is the mystery! Jesus did have a natural birth – Mary would slap your face if she heard you say otherwise!  She endured the pregnancy that not only brought her physical pain but social pain as well.  Mary endured the labor pains!  She gave birth to her son in the most “natural” way possible these days.  There were no labor drugs or epidurals in those days, mister.  So don't deny Mary her due. Indeed, Jesus did not have a “natural” Father.  But he   did have a Father……this is the mystery…….God provided what was needed to have a son of his very own.  A Son (so to speak) from his body.  A son, that like Abraham, he could leave his inheritence to.  Understanding this is to understand the who and what Jesus truly is.   You got it, I will slap His face too. Any woman that knows what Childbirth is will. And I also believe that Maria did give birth the Human way, since She was a Human being. How else would She have. Peace and Love Irene Mrs So then you do not believe the birth of Yeshua from a virgin was supernatural? Why do woman take pride over men for bearing children in pain because of the curse of disobedience?

You call that pride? I call that pain. Maria conceived supernatual, but She endured Child Birth like a Human. How else could She have given Birth. To deny that is to deny Jesus's Humanity.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2008,03:10)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,19:04) Nick, So, there can be created sons that are not considered begotten of God, but merely created of God. Hi LU, Yes, I would say so. But does scripture actually say God created the angels?

Hi Nick,
I think that this is talking about Satan here as a created cherub and not actually King Tyre since the King was not actually in the Garden of Eden.

Ezek 28:12-15

You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
NASU

[NickHassan]

Thanks.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,18:26)

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2008,23:23) Quote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,14:07) Hi 94, Nice post my brother, any single scripture can not deviate from the overall concepts on God and Jesus it should have an internal witness. As I was mentioning no where the word “begotten God” was confirmed by either Jesus or Apostles but the the words “son of God or begotten son” are confirmed. Please take care Adam Hi Brother: Thanks for the encouragement.  Someone is trying to confuse me, but I am not confused about what I believe.  God has revealed to the church that is Jesus is His Only Begotten Son and His Christ in Matthew 16.  Jesus said to the Apostle Peter, “Blessed art thou Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but my Father who is in heaven”.  This is what our Heavenly Father has said to us and I have a witness by His Spirit dwelling within me that this is the truth.  There is no need to try to find some other hidden truth. God Bless 94, God has revealed to the church that the Son is God and has a God. Heb 1:8-9 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” NASU There are internal witnesses but you can't see them for some reason 94 and you are certainly not alone.  I am sorry for that but only God can open the eyes.

Hi LU,
The scripture mentioning Jesus as God has already been explained many times that it has to be taken as Jesus' interpretation on men being called God especially those who are in power, authority, judges etc., see Jn10:33-36 and Ps 82:6-8.
You can not interpret this verse (Heb 1:8) and say that Jesus is also God who is equal to that ONE GOD the Father. Also this can not be taken into account for your so called begotten God theology.

[Lightenup]

Hi Golla,

I do not believe that Jesus is equal to that ONE GOD the Father. I believe that the ONE GOD, the Father is the ONLY MOST HIGH GOD. I believe He has a Son with whom He created the world through and is referred to in this next verse as our Great God and Savior. This is the Begotten God.
Titus 2:11-14

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
NASU

LU

[gollamudi]

Hi LU,
Many misunderstand this verse and claim that Jesus is great God. See the verse Titus 2:13 carefully “appearing of the glory of great God and Savior, Jesus” Jesus is the glory of God the father who is the ultimate savior of this universe. There can not be two Gods in this universe because “for us there is one God the Father”. Here Paul was mentioning about the appearing of the glory of God nothing but Jesus not that he is the same God. There can not be controdiction in the scripture that is same Paul can not write two different statements. Please see verses like Titus 1:2-3, 2:10, 3:4-6 in all these verses God is mentioned as Savior. God our savior made this Jesus also to be our savior, see 1 Jn 4:14 “God sent His son to be the savior of the world not that he(Jesus) himself is the savior.
Peace to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,18:11)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,21:22) Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2008,11:25) Mandy, When I speak of asexual reproduction, I am referring to the reproduction of God to form the begotten God before the foundation of the world.  I am not referring to Mary's conception. Kathi Hi Kathi, I know what you were referring to, but in my opinion you cannot seperate Jesus from his conception.  To do so is to go a bit out of bounds of scripture into inference and personal revelations…… The gospels speak of Jesus' entry into the world through conception.  However they do not speak of his former life as a begotten God.  Why do you think they left that part out? God speaks beyond the dried ink.

TOUCHE!

I do believe God speaks and gives revelations to people, but it should line up with scripture and certainly not oppose it. I believe your theory opposes scripture (remember this is only my opinion).
Thanks,
Mandy

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