Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

December 17, 2007 at 3:55 am#75049

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

He was WITH God and He WAS God according to the Scriptures

December 17, 2007 at 3:58 am#75052

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:55)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

He was WITH God and He WAS God according to the Scriptures

The Word was with and was God. Where does it say SON?

December 17, 2007 at 4:00 am#75053

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:58)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:55)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

He was WITH God and He WAS God according to the Scriptures

The Word was with and was God. Where does it say SON?

It doesn't say Son until He was born of Mary. That's what I've been saying all along.

December 17, 2007 at 4:19 am#75063

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,15:00)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:58)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:55)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

He was WITH God and He WAS God according to the Scriptures

The Word was with and was God. Where does it say SON?

It doesn't say Son until He was born of Mary. That's what I've been saying all along.

So God had another god in/with Him? Who was the Word? We know what the WORD became.

December 17, 2007 at 4:39 am#75068

Participant

By what authority do you translate “word” as being an animated crature/Jesus in a few verses when in 350 verses it is translated and meaning statement or speach, expressed idea.
This is perfect example of taking a few ambigous scriptures out of the general context nd giving them a meaning that fits their preconcieved idea of doctrine.

December 17, 2007 at 5:01 am#75069

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:55)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

He was WITH God and He WAS God according to the Scriptures

Where does it say “HE”? It says the WORD became flesh, NOT HE!

December 17, 2007 at 7:10 am#75070

IM4Truth

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,16:01)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:55)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

He was WITH God and He WAS God according to the Scriptures

Where does it say “HE”? It says the WORD became flesh, NOT HE!

Ken Rev.3:14 tells you that Jesus was the first of all creation. It says ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God. He is a He there.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth ……
The Holy Spirit is Gods Holy Spirit that combine us all. We agree on that I think.
Love and Peace Mrs.

December 17, 2007 at 9:01 am#75081

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 17 2007,18:10)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,16:01)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:55)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

He was WITH God and He WAS God according to the Scriptures

Where does it say “HE”? It says the WORD became flesh, NOT HE!

I disagree with that idea that the Word was created. More correctly, the Bible tells that the Word created rather than was created. Compare these different versions.

Rev 3:14

(AMP) And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation: [Isa. 55:4; Prov. 8:22.]

(CEV) This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.

(KJV+) And2532 unto the3588 angel32 of the3588 church1577 of the Laodiceans2994 write;1125 These things3592 saith3004 the3588 Amen,281 the3588 faithful4103 and2532 true228 witness,3144 the3588 beginning746 of the3588 creation2937 of God;2316

(MKJV) And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:

(RV) And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

(Webster) And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

(YLT) `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness–the faithful and true–the chief of the creation of God;

December 17, 2007 at 1:10 pm#75089

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,20:01)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 17 2007,18:10)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,16:01)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:55)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

He was WITH God and He WAS God according to the Scriptures

Where does it say “HE”? It says the WORD became flesh, NOT HE!

I disagree with that idea that the Word was created. More correctly, the Bible tells that the Word created rather than was created. Compare these different versions.

Rev 3:14

(CEV) This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.

(MKJV) And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:

(RV) And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

(Webster) And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

(YLT) `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness–the faithful and true–the chief of the creation of God;

Oxy “after” the WORD became flesh then the Word became “HE” not before. There is no HE in John 1:1. The Word became flesh.

But I love you in the LORD anyway! Is it permissible for me to be your brother?

December 17, 2007 at 5:24 pm#75101

Participant

The old Logos-Christology
Boy, when will this nonsense finally die!

The Greek term “word” in John is Logos.

wikpedia =

logos — which in Classical Greek stands for: a) the (oral or written) expression of thoughts and b) the ability of a person to express his thoughts (inward logos).

At Robertson defines Logos as –

The Word (o logov).
Logov is from legw, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logov is common for reason as well as speech.

In most Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias Logos is defined as a statement or speach.
I think of Logos as the intentions or motives of God. It could also be argued as God’s plan. In this way it fits all the remaining times Logos/word is used in scripture. One of the primary tennants of biblical interpretation is to line up our definitions of words with the language and then cross reference them with other times that word is used. Especially by the same author. If Word/Logos literally means Jesus in John 1 then it should mean Jesus everywhere else in scripture.
36 times Logos is used in the Book of John. they translate the first four times as meaning Jesus. What about the other 32 times it is used? This is in the same book and the same author! By what authority do they translate 4 verses one way and 32 another? This does not even take into consideration over 300 other times Logos is used in the New Testament with the meaning always as an expressed idea or intention.

In the following verses in John, I have inserted a question after the English word translated from Logos.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) which Jesus had said.
Joh 4:37 And herein is that saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
Joh 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
Joh 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,(Jesus or statement/idea? )and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word (Jesus or statement/idea?)abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying(Jesus or statement/idea?); who can hear it?
Joh 7:36 What manner of saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
Joh 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying(Jesus or statement/idea?), said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word(Jesus or statement/idea?), then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word (Jesus or statement/idea?)hath no place in you. even because ye cannot hear my word.(Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying,(Jesus or statement/idea?)he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 12:38 That the saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, (Jesus or statement/idea?)hath one that judgeth him: the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:(Jesus or statement/idea?) and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:(Jesus or statement/idea?) and the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; (Jesus or statement/idea?)and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word(Jesus or statement/idea?)is truth.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 18:9 That the saying (Jesus or statement/idea?)might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
Joh 18:32 That the saying (Jesus or statement/idea?)of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying,(Jesus or statement/idea?) he was the more afraid;
Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying (Jesus or statement/idea?)abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

How about I John?

Logos Count: 6

1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) of life;
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) is not in us.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word (Jesus or expressed i
dea/statement?) which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

How about Revelation”
Logos Count: 17

Re 1:2 Who bare record of the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?) of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)that he saw.
Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of this prophecy, and keep those things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Re 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)and hast not denied my name.
Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Re 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God shall be fulfilled.
Re 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God.
Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God.
Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)are true and faithful.
Re 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which must shortly be done.
Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the prophecy of this book.
Re 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of this book: worship God.
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?) of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which are written in this book.

Can you see that the definition of Logos = Jesus cannot work in the rest of scripture? The question still remains – By what authority do they translate these few in John a couple in I John and a couple in Revelation differently then the remaining 350 times it is used in scripture? Does their doctrine of the Trinity give them the authority to translate a few verses diferently then the overwhelming majority of verses?

God has used Logos over 350 times with clear meaning of a statement, expressed idea, plan, motive or intention. This is in complete agreement with the functional and relational way in which Hebrews thought and wrote.

December 17, 2007 at 6:08 pm#75106

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Colter @ Dec. 18 2007,03:30)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:52)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:48)

Thanks Martian. That was very informative. Cheers.

But we still have 3 seperate identities. Father, Word and the Spirit, all of which are One.

The WORD “BECAME” a separate person, right?

No, the word did not become a separate person, the word has ALWAYS BEEN a separate person. That spiritual being became flesh.

The “word” who was with God in the begining is eternal.

They have always been ONE.

Colter

Hi c,
So he not the monogenes son of God who was sent into the world? [1Jn4]

December 17, 2007 at 6:11 pm#75107

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Colter @ Dec. 18 2007,04:58)

Quote

Boy, when will this nonsense finally die!

Well, the Jews thought that they had put an end to it but “the word” that was made flesh resurrected itself from the dead, ascended into heaven and has been given all power and authority in heaven and on earth as he is said to be at Gods right hand. So, if the anti Christ were correct, God birthed a vice God out of a mortal women 2,000 years ago, That would make our Lord a “floating space man” like the Muslims believe Jesus to be.

Like they say out in the country, “that dog won't hunt”.

Colter

Hi C,
Jesus did not raise himself.
God prophetically promised He would through the mouth of His servant prophet in Jn 2 and raised him by the Spirit of life given him.

December 17, 2007 at 6:42 pm#75111

Participant

Quote (Colter @ Dec. 18 2007,04:58)

Quote

Boy, when will this nonsense finally die!

Like they say out in the country, “that dog won't hunt”.

Colter

Those who continue to support the “co-equal” nature of Christ have a really hard time with scriptures that clearly say the authority was given to him by another and that it is only a temporary mantle.

1 Cor 15

23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father and places himself in subjection to God

December 17, 2007 at 7:00 pm#75113

IM4Truth

Participant

Quote (martian @ Dec. 18 2007,05:42)

Quote (Colter @ Dec. 18 2007,04:58)

Quote

Boy, when will this nonsense finally die!

Like they say out in the country, “that dog won't hunt”.

Colter

1 Cor 15

23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father and places himself in subjection to God

Ame, Amen to that.

Peace and Love Mrs.

December 17, 2007 at 7:33 pm#75115

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Martian

Yes, we have heard your fallacious argument before. However you have failed to answer some very important questions about Johns use of the term “Logos” in Jn 1:1. 1 Jn 1:1,2 and Rev. 19:13.

But before we get to that, I might say “what gives you the “Authority” to change the translation of the “logos” in Jn 1:1 in opposition to over 600 Greek scholars, when in every major translation they tranlated it the same.

Now unless you can prove your accusation that 100s of scholars conspired to mistranslate it then you have a straw.

Also for your information, many of the translators were not Trinitarian.

So where is your credentials? You cite no source for your claims about the “logos”. I have had this conversation with you before, and you claim to have a degree in “Theology”. But this dosnt make you an authority in Hebrew or Greek translation.

As I said before, can you tell us or enlighten us of your greek knowledge?

What authority do you have?

So you don’t have any Biblical degrees in Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic? You have a “theology” degree, which you failed to mention what degree and what college. And so this “Theology degree and 35 years of study gives you authority to disagree with the translators and the credible translations?
So tell me martian or m42…
What case, gender, and number is “theos” in John 1:1? Why is it anarthrous?

How about parsing “en”, its found three times in the verse. Its very imprtant.

Whats its lexical form? Why is the imperfect tense important in the verse?

How does the imperfect tense relate to the prepositional phrase at the start of the verse?

Why is “arche” in dative case? Why does “pros” have grave accent?

Do you understand these questions? I doubt it. Then you should not doubt the translations. But of course you have to to make it fit your “Unitarian” doctrine.

So if the translators believed that John meant the “Logos” in John 1:1 was just a ‘saying’, then why did they not translate it that way?

And why did they all use personal pronouns for the Logos in John 1:3,4,10,14.

Tell me martian, how can a saying be “with” someone? If the Logos is just a saying or thought or plan, dosnt it have to be *in God*?

Again over 600 scholars says the “Word was with God” and the “Word Was God”.

HMM! A saying thought and plan was “with God” and “was God”?

and the Word was with God
In the second clause John’s language was typically precise and nuanced, he deliberately invoked a distinction in the two persons of “ton theon” and “ho Logos” and at the same time presented a new dynamic, they were coexisting in relationship. The significant word in the clause is “pros”, when used with the accusative it is widely regarded as being Greek shorthand for proswpon prov proswpon, which means face to face (in relationship). Here is how Robertson exegetes this clause:

With God (prov ton qeon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Prov with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1 John 2:1 we have a like use of prov: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklhton exomen prov ton patera). See proswpon prov proswpon (face to face, 1 Corinthians 13:12), a triple use of prov. There is a papyrus example of prov in this sense to gnwston thv prov allhlouv sunhqeiav, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of prov here and in Mark 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koin‚, not old Attic. In John 17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.
(source)

So it’s in this clause that we have the John’s fullest expression of the type of relationship two subjects shared “in the beginning”. The Logos always existed in intimate fellowship with “ton theon” (The Father). Then in verse 3 a bombshell is dropped….
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….p=65739

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Also, your argument that “Logos” is used by the Apostle in most places as a spoken word, and not as a name for Yeshua according to Rev 19:13, is a red herring.

Any good biblical scholar knows that Greek and Hebrew words cannot always be interpreted with the same meaning.

You are trying to force one single meaning to “logos” which is in defiance of logic let alone it is doing violence to the text.

You as a theologian should know that words can have different meanings. Even in english, for instance the word “Light”. How many meanings can it have?

Examples of the word “logos” found in the NT scriptures are not always “a spoken word”, for instance…

Luke 16:2
And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account (Logos) of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

Phil 4:17
Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account (Logos).

So if your rule that every time the word Logos is found the translators should have translated it to mean “statement/speech/idea or plan”, then we should just throw the above scriptures out.

But lets look at another example where a greek word can have more than 1 meaning.

Lets look at the Greek word “aggelos” , which means…
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

Almost exclusively the word is translated “Angels” and literally refers to Angels. 186 times you will find the word in the NT scriptures of that 179 times it is “Angels” and 7 times it is translated messenger.

Example…

Matt 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel (aggelos) of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 7:27,28
This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

So again the translators lied and misinterpreted the scriptures?

So by your logic the interpreters should have held to the 179 times the context for “aggelos” was speaking of Angels and interpreted Luke 7:27,28 as an Angel from God. However we know John was not an Angel for he was born of a woman. Unless you believe like the JWS that Angels can take on human flesh.

Yeshua the Word came in the flesh. Not a thought or a plan. Rev 19:13 says…

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation is believed by many scholars to have been written before the GoJ, which would explain why John used the term “Logos”, borrowing it from his vision of Yeshuas name.

1 Jn 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which w
e have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Can you look upon, or see or handle a thought or a plan.

Yeshua is the Word. Scriptures bear this out.

You have no proof that that which was from the beginning that was with the Father is a thought or plan. By and through him all things were created, not a thought or plan.

December 17, 2007 at 7:59 pm#75116

Participant

Very simple WJ. I am not changing the translation of the term “word”. I use the scholar own definitions as a statement speach or expressed idea. I DO NOT change it to meaning literally Jesus.
That is your problem.

December 17, 2007 at 8:14 pm#75121