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Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.Hi Oxy,
So the use of “God” in this verse is bothto the person of our God and the God of Jesus, the Father
and
our Lord, the Son of God.It does not show them as one and the same being but two together, Father and Son.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,13:46) Hi Oxy,
So the use of “God” in this verse is bothto the person of our God and the God of Jesus, the Father
and
our Lord, the Son of God.It does not show them as one and the same being but two together, Father and Son.
No Nick, there is no mention of the Son in the beginning. He did not become a Son until He was born of Mary.Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,13:08) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,12:55) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,11:42) On the topic of did Jesus pre-exist, the answer is yes, He did. John described it this way:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.The Word of God was WITH God and WAS God. Then the Scriptures go on to say:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.So we see that, according to the above Scripture, He was no longer God, but became subject to His Father as the firstborn Son of God.
There is evidence in Revelation of the Word of God returning, so Jesus pre-existed as the Word of God and was God, and was then born as Jesus, making God a Father.
Before Jesus became flesh He was the Word? Was that the spoken Word of God? Jesus' name in heaven before He became flesh was Word? Did God tell the Word to create light? All things were created through the WORD and for the WORD that became flesh…a person the very first child of God.So the Word became flesh, then what was the Word before the Word became flesh? The very first thing God created was the Word. Then He spoke everything into existence.
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
I don't ever remember reading where God created the Word. He was in the beginning.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Hi c,
So man was created replete with the indwelling inspiration of the Spirit of God?
Scripture seems to speak of individuals with this blessing only.
Why do we need to be born again of the Holy Spirit?Here are some other translations Kenrch. They indicate clearly that the Word was not the forst created, but rather the One who created.
(AMP) And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation: [Isa. 55:4; Prov. 8:22.]
(ASV) And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
(CEV) This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.
(YLT) `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness–the faithful and true–the chief of the creation of God;
(MKJV) And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:08) The name Elohiym is plural.
Actually that is not true —
If you study the Hebrew language you will see that the Hebrews often use the plural form of a word not to indicte more then one but to shoe w a greater amout of the one described. In otherwords Elohym is not a plural of persons but a plural of majesty. More then simple majesty it is magnified in majesty.Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:19) Here are some other translations Kenrch. They indicate clearly that the Word was not the forst created, but rather the One who created. (AMP) And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation: [Isa. 55:4; Prov. 8:22.]
(ASV) And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
(CEV) This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.
(YLT) `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness–the faithful and true–the chief of the creation of God;
(MKJV) And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
That's what I like when one translation says what we don't like ALL we need do is run to another!
It's called “cafeteria Christian”. Choose what you want
Quote (martian @ Dec. 17 2007,14:21) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:08) The name Elohiym is plural.
Actually that is not true —
If you study the Hebrew language you will see that the Hebrews often use the plural form of a word not to indicte more then one but to shoe w a greater amout of the one described. In otherwords Elohym is not a plural of persons but a plural of majesty. More then simple majesty it is magnified in majesty.
So how do you explain this verse?Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Us indicates more than one.
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:26) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:19) Here are some other translations Kenrch. They indicate clearly that the Word was not the forst created, but rather the One who created. (AMP) And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation: [Isa. 55:4; Prov. 8:22.]
(ASV) And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
(CEV) This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.
(YLT) `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness–the faithful and true–the chief of the creation of God;
(MKJV) And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
That's what I like when one translation says what we don't like ALL we need do is run to another! It's called “cafeteria Christian”. Choose what you want
Is that your best shot?The Word of God was not created.
Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:28) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,14:26) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:19) Here are some other translations Kenrch. They indicate clearly that the Word was not the forst created, but rather the One who created. (AMP) And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation: [Isa. 55:4; Prov. 8:22.]
(ASV) And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
(CEV) This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.
(YLT) `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness–the faithful and true–the chief of the creation of God;
(MKJV) And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:
That's what I like when one translation says what we don't like ALL we need do is run to another! It's called “cafeteria Christian”. Choose what you want
Is that your best shot?The Word of God was not created.
Did you create the words you typed? NO! Then where did they come from?Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:26) Quote (martian @ Dec. 17 2007,14:21) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:08) The name Elohiym is plural.
Actually that is not true —
If you study the Hebrew language you will see that the Hebrews often use the plural form of a word not to indicte more then one but to shoe w a greater amout of the one described. In otherwords Elohym is not a plural of persons but a plural of majesty. More then simple majesty it is magnified in majesty.
So how do you explain this verse?Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Us indicates more than one.
There are several possibilities other then plural Gods.
1. YHWH could be speaking to the hosts of heaven in there helping to grow and mature the children of God.
2. YHWH does not live in our linear time frame. He could be speaking to Christ in the future. .
If you read the following context of that verse you will see that God says “So He created man in His own image”. Here God ises singular pronouns. Did God change his mind mid creation and decide not to have all the God's involved in it?
The point is that this is an ambigous verse within it's context and cannot be used as definitive proof.Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:26) Quote (martian @ Dec. 17 2007,14:21) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:08) The name Elohiym is plural.
Actually that is not true —
If you study the Hebrew language you will see that the Hebrews often use the plural form of a word not to indicte more then one but to shoe w a greater amout of the one described. In otherwords Elohym is not a plural of persons but a plural of majesty. More then simple majesty it is magnified in majesty.
So how do you explain this verse?Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Us indicates more than one.
OXY In addition if you choose to pull a few scriptures out of the general context of scriptue that indicate a plural God via plural pronouns, then can I pull out the thousands that indicate a singular God in the use of singular pronouns?
A guiding principle of Scriptureal interpretation is always fall on the side of the preponderance of evidence unless there is clear evidence to do other wise. Wanting to prove plural God's and defend a doctrine is not clear reason.The other possibility, and the one that I subscribe to, is that God said let Usa make man……. And we know that God is One, consisting of Father, Word and Holy Spirit, so it would be fitting for Him to make man in His/Their own image.
Are we not 3 in one? Body, soul and spirit?
Allow me to give you a deffinition by Jeff Benner an expert on ancient Hebrew language.
There are two Hebrew words commonly translated as God, el and elo'ah. When reading the Bible it is better to have an Ancient Hebrew perception of God rather than our modern western view. The word el was originally written with two pictographic letters, one being an ox head and the other a shepherd staff. The ox represented strength and the staff of the shepherd represented authority. First, the Ancient Hebrews saw God as the strong one of authority. The shepherd staff was also understood as a staff on the shoulders, a yoke. Secondly, the Ancient Hebrews saw God as the ox in the yoke. When plowing a field two oxen were placed in a yoke, one was the older and more experienced and the other the younger and less experienced and the younger would learn from the older. The Hebrews saw God as the older experienced ox and they as the younger who learns from him. The plural form of elo'ah is elohiym and is often translated as God. While English plurals only identify quantity, as in more than one, the Hebrew plural can identify quantity as well as quality. Something that is of great size or stature can be written in the plural form and in this case, God, as the great strength and authority is frequently written in the plural form elohiym. The two letters in these Hebrew words are the ox head representing strength and the shepherd staff representing authority. Combined they mean “the strong authority” as well as “the ox with a staff” (a yoke is understood as a staff on the shoulders).
Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:42) The other possibility, and the one that I subscribe to, is that God said let Usa make man……. And we know that God is One, consisting of Father, Word and Holy Spirit, so it would be fitting for Him to make man in His/Their own image. Are we not 3 in one? Body, soul and spirit?
Where do you get that God is made up of Father Word and Holy Spirit?
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