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Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,16:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2007,08:07) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 24 2007,20:06) Well it seems we agree here, although I would disagree with the inference that the humility was permanent.
Jesus is God's Son. Indeed he is humble before his God. He is reigning and ruling for his Father for a time….but then he will turn everything over to his God once again [1 Cor. 15].This is permanent humility – to let another who is greater rule above you.
God – Jesus' God – will be all in all.
Jesus is our prime example of what it means to be humble and put other's above ourselves.
Sorry, I was unclear in what I meant by humility, I was making reference exclusively of “kenoō” in Phil 2:7. I wasn't speaking of an attitude of humility….Not3, how do you understand this verse?
Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyoneDid Jesus, the man, at one occupy a position that was higher than, or equal to, the angels?
Jesus is lower than the heavenly hosts while on earth. Not because he is a man, but because he has given his privileges up (for a little while).Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:00) Actually it isn't beside the point – it is the point! While on earth, Jesus was not referred to as anything but the Son of Man
That's not true, Thomas referred to Him was “my God” (John 20:28), Jesus referred to Himself as “I AM” (John 8:58)….Quote He WAS all of the wonderful things you say (Lord of Lords), but he emptied himself of those rights.
Where, in the Gospels do we read about an emptying that occurred during Jesus earthly life? Can you quote some verses for me please?Quote Now as the glorified Son at the Father's right hand, those rights are enjoyed.
So Jesus became the Alpha and Omega etc by virtue of the position He has attained (at the right hand)?Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:10) So Jesus became the Alpha and Omega etc by virtue of the position He has attained (at the right hand)?
Let me answer that by asking a question, if I may –If Jesus didn't go to the cross, but decided to live out his life as a man and enjoy earth – could he have? Would he have *become* the “Alpha and Omega”?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:10) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:00)
Actually it isn't beside the point – it is the point!While on earth, Jesus was not referred to as anything but the Son of Man
That's not true, Thomas referred to Him was “my God” (John 20:28), Jesus referred to Himself as “I AM” (John 8:58)….
We don't know that Thomas referred to JESUS as God. Again, we were not in the room. I have shared my view on this many times. This is not a solid passage to use, Isaiah. Like you mentioned with the footnotes – I see the Thomas passage as a desperate attempt to make Jesus God. If Jesus is, in fact, God – there would be other verses that you could point to with certainty. Of course this is just my *sometimes* humble opinion, you are entitled to yours. I'm just saying that it doesn't hold much weight for those of us who do hold as our presumption that Jesus is God.Likewise, the “I am” passage has not been thought to imply a NAME. In fact, I feel that this goes against all that Jesus had testified to throughout the NT. He denied being God but claimed only to be God's Son —- and you want to tell me that he went from only saying he was a Son to claiming the great name; I AM? It's a huge stretch in my opinion.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,09:01) Hi Not3,
I agree.
Is 1.18 said of Jesus
“Nor would others designate them with titles like “Most High” (Dan 7:25), or “Lord of all” (Acts 10:36)….
Dan 7.25 in context.
“21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. “
The Saints of the Most High are the saints of God, the Ancient of days.
Christ has indeed been made Lord of all.
In verse 13 & 14 of Daniel 7 we read this:13″I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14″And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.Note that “dominion, glory and a kingdom” were given to “One like a Son of Man”
Then, later in the Chapter, this is recorded:
27'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'
So the kingdom and dominions, which were given to “One like a Son of Man” (Jesus, the Messiah) now belong to the “Most High”. Clearly they are one and the same person.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:10) Quote
He WAS all of the wonderful things you say (Lord of Lords), but he emptied himself of those rights.Where, in the Gospels do we read about an emptying that occurred during Jesus earthly life? Can you quote some verses for me please?
When he was in the garden, waiting to be taken by the soldiers, what did he say to Peter? He said that if he *wanted to* he could call on his Father and his Father would put at his disposal legions of angels. Did he use this privilege? No. Could he have? Yes.My Jesus didn't have to go to the cross. That is the whole reason why I love him – he sacrificed his life for me. He wanted to and did.
Your Jesus didn't have a choice. He was God. He couldn't have NOT accomplished the mission. What type of sacrifice is that?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:16) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:10) So Jesus became the Alpha and Omega etc by virtue of the position He has attained (at the right hand)?
Let me answer that by asking a question, if I may –If Jesus didn't go to the cross, but decided to live out his life as a man and enjoy earth – could he have?
No. It was decreed in OT prophecies that He would and scripture cannot be broken.Quote Would he have *become* the “Alpha and Omega”?
No. “Alpha and Omega” is not a title that you can attain. That's just silly Not3. Be serious now.Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:21) We don't know that Thomas referred to JESUS as God. Again, we were not in the room. I have shared my view on this many times. This is not a solid passage to use, Isaiah. John 20:28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hands and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God' “The Greek in the later part of John 20:28 reads,
ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou
Which literally means:
“Answered Thomas and he said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me”
This was not an exclamation but an address, and the address was directed to Jesus – Thomas “said to him” (Jesus), with the nominative used for the vocative. Gramatically and contextually it's a very solid verse attesting to Yeshua's deity. The only real objection from you is a theological one, it's theologically unacceptible for you to take this verse at face value.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:26) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:16) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:10) So Jesus became the Alpha and Omega etc by virtue of the position He has attained (at the right hand)?
Let me answer that by asking a question, if I may –If Jesus didn't go to the cross, but decided to live out his life as a man and enjoy earth – could he have?
No. It was decreed in OT prophecies that He would and scripture cannot be broken.Quote Would he have *become* the “Alpha and Omega”?
No. “Alpha and Omega” is not a title that you can attain. That's just silly Not3. Be serious now.
You're making me laugh. I love chatting with you, Isaiah!Well, OK, see I have a problem with the fact that Jesus couldn't have made a different descision. Not that he wouldn't have done the right thing – of course he would have. But that he didn't have a choice bothers me greatly. That almost makes him out to be a robot obeying what was written? Where's the passion? Where's the struggle of humanity that cried out three times……FATHER TAKE THIS CUP!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:37) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:21) We don't know that Thomas referred to JESUS as God. Again, we were not in the room. I have shared my view on this many times. This is not a solid passage to use, Isaiah. John 20:28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hands and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God' “The Greek in the later part of John 20:28 reads,
ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou
Which literally means:
“Answered Thomas and he said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me”
This was not an exclamation but an address, and the address was directed to Jesus – Thomas “said to him” (Jesus), with the nominative used for the vocative. Gramatically and contextually it's a very solid verse attesting to Yeshua's deity. The only real objection from you is a theological one, it's theologically unacceptible for you to take this verse at face value.
No, taking this passage at face value lends itself to my theory. I'm sorry, but it does. I know Thomas was talking with Jesus. This is undisputed. But the fact still remains that you can be talking to one person and gesture to or at another. You can.God made Jesus – Lord and Christ. Thomas knew this along with all the other boys.
It is not written, however, that God made Jesus *also* God. This would have never entered the boys' minds. They were God-fearing Jews for crying out loud!
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:40) You're making me laugh. I love chatting with you, Isaiah! Gotta go (cooking dinner)….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:58) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 26 2007,17:40) You're making me laugh. I love chatting with you, Isaiah! Gotta go (cooking dinner)….
Dinner? Goodness, where do you live? It's nearly 11:15 p.m. here in WA State? Do you live in NZ?
Well, have a great dinner! Thanks for the chat tonight.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,16:51) Not3, how do you understand this verse? Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyoneDid Jesus, the man, at one occupy a position that was higher than, or equal to, the angels?
Hi Is,In the verse that you quoted, the underlined “for a little while” only appears in perhaps two of the many translations. I think the NLT and one other. But even if it was in the original scripture, it does not emply that Jesus was at an earlier time higher than the angels. Only that Jesus was for some time made lower than the angels and then elevated to a higher position.
Tim
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,09:01) Hi Not3,
I agree.
Is 1.18 said of Jesus
“Nor would others designate them with titles like “Most High” (Dan 7:25), or “Lord of all” (Acts 10:36)….
Dan 7.25 in context.
“21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. “
The Saints of the Most High are the saints of God, the Ancient of days.
Christ has indeed been made Lord of all.
In verse 13 & 14 of Daniel 7 we read this:13″I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14″And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.Note that “dominion, glory and a kingdom” were given to “One like a Son of Man”
Then, later in the Chapter, this is recorded:
27'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'
So the kingdom and dominions, which were given to “One like a Son of Man” (Jesus, the Messiah) now belong to the “Most High”. Clearly they are one and the same person.
Hi Is 1.18,
Do you really think that when God gave the kingdom to Jesus it was not longer His own kingdom??
God is ever God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2007,05:26) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 26 2007,17:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,09:01) Hi Not3,
I agree.
Is 1.18 said of Jesus
“Nor would others designate them with titles like “Most High” (Dan 7:25), or “Lord of all” (Acts 10:36)….
Dan 7.25 in context.
“21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. “
The Saints of the Most High are the saints of God, the Ancient of days.
Christ has indeed been made Lord of all.
In verse 13 & 14 of Daniel 7 we read this:13″I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14″And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.Note that “dominion, glory and a kingdom” were given to “One like a Son of Man”
Then, later in the Chapter, this is recorded:
27'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'
So the kingdom and dominions, which were given to “One like a Son of Man” (Jesus, the Messiah) now belong to the “Most High”. Clearly they are one and the same person.
Hi Is 1.18,
Do you really think that when God gave the kingdom to Jesus it was not longer His own kingdom??
God is ever God.
NHThat is the whole point isnt it.
One God, who created all things for himself.
Just like Jesus raising himself from the dead and yet the Father raising him from the dead!
Let us not forget that Jesus could not have preexisted his own conception and birth.
The scriptures lend themselves to the idea that Jesus was part of the creation from the foundation of the earth – not physically – but because he was to come into being, God did it *through* the promise/idea/plan/possibility of him. Remember that Jesus is “of” God, and he came “from” God. There was a point when Jesus began, and that point was conception. The angel told Mary that the child conceived in her would be holy BECAUSE it was from (and literally) of God as the Father of the child.
Jesus was known before the foundations of the earth – so were we. Did we preexist our own births?
1. Jesus preexisted as an already existing son + Mary = ? = sort of combination of parents? (still not a true conception because spirit son would be altered when fused with Mary's contribution)
2. Jesus preexisted as a person known as Logos/Word + Mary = 100% Word and 100% Man = no combination of parents (not true conception)
3. Jesus did not preexist physically but was of God + Mary = Son of God and Son of Man = combination of parents (true conception)
Please tell me why I'm wrong to beleive #3? Why can't Jesus JUST BE the real Son of God and Mary?
I would love to hear from others – I know Nick and I have covered this in depth and have come to “agree to disagree” – what do other's think?
The problem seems to be the conception. Was it a “true” conception that Jesus went through, or was it something “other than” a true conception (incarnation would fall under “other” category).
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