Preexistence

Participant

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ “

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who’s origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well it seems possible but I cannot be sure. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses and that is the point I wish to bring out for now..

Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn’}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word ‘aion’ (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

May 29, 2007 at 5:40 pm#53975

Participant

Hi not3,
If Jesus is the Word and words mean anything then the word is not a thought or an idea, but an expression of a thought or idea.

May 29, 2007 at 5:54 pm#53978

Participant

John 1:14
….and the word (expression of a thought, idea, plan) became flesh.”

May 29, 2007 at 6:48 pm#53986

Participant

Hi not3,
Thank you.
So the Word is not an idea or a thought, but an expression of such things, that BECAME FLESH.

May 29, 2007 at 7:18 pm#53992

Participant

Cannot thoughts be expressed?

May 29, 2007 at 7:27 pm#53993

Participant

Hi Not3,
Indeed,
And this thought was expressed and with the Father before partaking of flesh.

May 29, 2007 at 7:41 pm#53998

Participant

Are you sure?

The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT. The teachings of preexistence seem to be missing from Peter and Paul's messages. I have yet to read from the letter's of Paul stories surrounding Jesus' life before he joined us. Peter seems to be clueless about this former life as well. Jesus is motivated by what he will receive (a typical human response) after he sacrifices his life…..immortality and life with God, his Father. If he was with his Father prior to being born, he certainly never gave us any teachings on the subject. Did he think we didn't need to know about his former life?

May 29, 2007 at 8:12 pm#54002

Participant

Hi Not3,
You say
“The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT. “
Where?
Scripture says the monogenes son was sent into the world.[1Jn4]

May 29, 2007 at 9:28 pm#54011

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:41)

Are you sure?

Hi not3,
Peter called Christ the Holy One[1P1] and referred to his glory seen on the mountain[2P1]. He knew him to be the Son of God and that is the most important fact about him.

He taught in Acts 2 about the prophet who was to come and the one who would be shown to be the messiah because he was not allowed to rot.

He is a true pastor and rightly did not expound deeply on his origins as it is a distraction for so many leading them to confuse him with his Greater Father and out of such nonsense has sprouted nonbiblical teachings such as trinity.

May 29, 2007 at 10:24 pm#54027

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,09:28)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:41)

Are you sure?

Hi not3,
Peter called Christ the Holy One[1P1] and referred to his glory seen on the mountain[2P1]. He knew him to be the Son of God and that is the most important fact about him.

He taught in Acts 2 about the prophet who was to come and the one who would be shown to be the messiah because he was not allowed to rot.

I believe the last part of your quote makes things too tidy. I believe that Peter didn't emphasize or give more messages surrounding Jesus' previous life because there wasn't such a thing aside from God. Peter knew Jesus was the son of Mary and Jo. What made Peter believe he was the Son of God was the miracles and let's not forget the audible voice of Almighty God confirming the fact.

The clear teachings of Jesus' beginnings are found in the story of his birth in the gospels. This is how people knew Jesus – from Nazareth – the carpenter's son.

May 29, 2007 at 10:40 pm#54031

Participant

Hi not3,
I agree that the people of Jesus's day saw him only as a son of Mary.
Should we take their natural observations as the whole truth?
Those with spiritual eyes including John the Baptist and even demoniacs, saw him as the being he disguised as it distracted men and made them want to kill him, the Son of God.

May 29, 2007 at 10:53 pm#54033

Participant

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What is this text saying?

He had divine nature
He humbled himself from his former position
He became a man and died
He was exalted to the highest position after he died
He is the Lord, to the glory of his and our God. So if Christ didn’t pre-exist, then how could he have had divine nature and then humbled himself and came as a man? Remember that he made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child? For example, we who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we? Or we cannot say that we formerly had divine nature or God’s nature can we? Yet if you make the argument that Jesus is like us in that he was born as a man and didn’t pre-exist, then surely we could apply the pre-existent language in the above text to ourselves too. But this isn’t the case.

May 29, 2007 at 11:20 pm#54034

Adam Pastor

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,21:12)

Hi Not3,
You say
“The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT. “
Where?

(Mat 1:18) Now the birth [genesis] of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Now we know what genesis means, don't we?
Ans: Beginning!
So, the beginning of Jesus the Messiah was on this wise …

May 29, 2007 at 11:29 pm#54035

Participant

Hi AP,
Number 1083
Transliteration:
gennesis {ghen'-nay-sis}
Word Origin:
from 1080
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
birth 2

Total: 2
Definition:
begat, engendering
nativity, birth

Surely you do not believe that the book of Genesis was the beginning of all things?
God and the sons of God preceded that history.
So your comment does not add.

May 30, 2007 at 12:12 am#54043

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:40)

See, I don't believe that Jesus was in guise (as a man). I believe he was truly and utterly the Son of God.

Natural observations are natural for a reason (not artificial, simple and sincere).

Jesus then had the OK from his Father and began with the miraculous stuff…..this was to show that not only was he the son of Man, but that he was also the Son of God. How else would people believe who he was? Peter certainly took note and professed him to be the Son of the Living God.

May 30, 2007 at 12:23 am#54045

Participant

Quote (t8 @ May 30 2007,10:53)

What is this text saying?

Good question! It depends on who you ask; you will certainly get all sorts of answers. For you, it means that Christ preexisted and came in the guise of a man. I do not believe this. I do not believe the Messiah was sent into the world simply to don flesh! In my opinion, that would not make him very human —– even if he willingly gave up prior glory. How nice of him to stoop to my level? No, he was a true son/Son.

No doubt this commitment to keeping a low profile about his true identity is exactly what Philippians is referring to, and removes this section of scripture from the mystical clutches of “kenotic Christology”. This system belief, the handmaiden of “the incarnation,” teaches that Christ emptied himself of his “pre-incarnate divinity” before he was conceived. How much simpler it is to place these verses in the specific context of the witness of Christ's life as revealed in the gospels.

May 30, 2007 at 1:17 am#54052

kenrch

Participant

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus was a supernatural being more than any human walking the earth except for sin then His sacrifice is void. Jesus himself was just as you and I except for sin. All of the Father dwelt in Jesus that's why jesus said over and over that HE DOES NOTHING but He did and said what the Father told Him to do.

Again we are forgiven of sin WE HAVE NO SIN we claim the sacrifice of Christ. Other than the amount of the Holy Spirit we are the same as our elder Brother. Satan has us deceived. How could Jesus expect us to do greater works than He did if we think of ourselves as anything less that Christ.

Jesus is the Head of the body YES but His body is cripple thinking that “only Jesus could do that”. Peter walked on water before the sacrifice of Christ. When Jesus calmed the storm Jesus said “oh ye of little faith”. Wasn't Jesus saying that the apostles could have calmed the storm if they believed.

Jesus was the Son of man filled with the Spirit of God. We are sons and daughters of man with some of the Spirit of God.

Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

Sounds very familiar. This happens daily now around the world. The Holy Spirit surely is visting someone somewhere on the earth.

Jesus in Himself could do nothing by His own admission.

Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from Jesus the only begotten. But if we don't realize just who we are then how are we to perform the miracles He said we would. Unless you believe what some believe, that miracles were just for the first century church.

The Word preexisted in the mind of God and was manifested flesh. The only Son like that all other of God's children were concieved with a fleshly father. For us it's all spiritual. Before Jesus all beings were created through the Son by the Father just as Light was created by the Father through the Word.

IHN&L,

Ken

May 30, 2007 at 2:20 am#54054

Participant

To Not3in1.

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,07:23)

I do not believe this. I do not believe the Messiah was sent into the world simply to don flesh! In my opinion, that would not make him very human

What makes someone human is their nature.

If they have human nature, they are human.

If Christ partook of human nature, then he became human. His existence before being human (partaking of the flesh) wouldn't counter that.

May 30, 2007 at 2:26 am#54055