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Hi David, hope things are going well for you. I am going to address your reply piecemeal due to time constraints.
Quote ACTS 7:54-60
“Well, at hearing these things they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at him. But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” At this they cried out at the top of the voice and put their hands over their ears and rushed upon him with one accord. And after throwing him outside the city, they began casting stones at him. And the witnesses laid down their outer garments at the feet of a young man called Saul. And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].”
(This will be covered below.)Quote ‘But,’ some may ask, ‘does the Bible not report that both the disciple Stephen and the apostle John spoke to Jesus in heaven?’ That is true. These events, however, did not involve prayers, as Stephen and John each saw Jesus in vision and spoke to him directly. (Acts 7:56, 59; Revelation 1:17-19; 22:20) Bear in mind that simply speaking even to God does not in itself constitute a prayer. Adam and Eve spoke to God, offering excuses for their great sin, when He judged them following their sin in Eden. Their talking to him in that way was not a prayer. (Genesis 3:8-19) Hence, it would be incorrect to cite Stephen’s or John’s talking to Jesus as evidence that we actually should pray to him.
More faulty reasoning from you here David. First, and most obvious, of all in the in the Genesis example YHWH was proximal to A & E, he was literally there walking in the very same garden in which Adam and Eve were hiding. YHWH was present in the garden and therefore could literally talk to them, and vise versa:Genesis 3
8They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”So naturally this could never be construed as prayer in the classical sense, they were within speaking distance and therefore were calling to each other. Using this flawed logic you could legitimately argue that YHWH was also praying to A & E. It’s also disappointing that you cynically equate Adam and Eve lying to God with Stephen saying “Lord Jesus receive my spirit” or John’s speaking to Jesus in Revelation, stating: “Hence, it would be incorrect to cite Stephen’s or John’s talking to Jesus as evidence that we actually should pray to him.” It is easy to see that the argument is nonsense, it is a non sequitur, and also contains an informal fallacy of one that attempts to associate a bad example in the minds of others as evidence that all examples of the practice are erroneous. Neither what Stephen or John said was in fact a lie, so the fact that people lie or have lied in attempts to deceive God really has nothing to do with whether or not one should pray to Jesus. This tactic is called “guilty by association” where the attempt is made to associate a certain bad instance (Adam and Eve’s lie) as having some kind of de facto effect on all such instances (talking to God).
Quote Though some claim that prayer may properly be addressed to others, such as to God’s Son, the evidence is emphatically to the contrary. True, there are rare instances in which words are addressed to Jesus Christ in heaven. Stephen, when about to die, appealed to Jesus, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Ac 7:59) However, the context reveals a circumstance giving basis for this exceptional expression. Stephen at that very time had a vision of “Jesus standing at God’s right hand,” and evidently reacting as if he were in Jesus’ personal presence, he felt free to speak this plea to the one whom he recognized as the head of the Christian congregation. (Ac 7:55, 56; Col 1:18) Similarly, the apostle John, at the conclusion of the Revelation, says, “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” (Re 22:20) But again the context shows that, in a vision (Re 1:10; 4:1, 2), John had been hearing Jesus speak of his future coming and thus John responded with the above expression of his desire for that coming. (Re 22:16, 20) In both cases, that of Stephen and that of John, the situation differs little from that of the conversation John had with a heavenly person in this Revelation vision. (Re 7:13, 14; compare Ac 22:6-22.) There is nothing to indicate that Christian disciples so expressed themselves under other circumstances to Jesus after his ascension to heaven. Thus, the apostle Paul writes: “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—Php 4:6.
So the crux of the issue is: do statements like “Lord Jesus receive my spirit” and “Amen, Come Lord Jesus” actually do constitute prayer. I think that anyone, not blinded by his or her own presuppositions, would answer emphatically “yes”. Notwithstanding the attempt to associate Stephen and John’s statements with Adam and Eve’s lie, these statements made by Stephen and John are, in and of themselves, very reverent and contain the essential elements that constitute prayer. Namely: the spoken/written words are first addressing the being to whom the request is being made to (Yahshua), followed by a request that this being is supposed to be able to carry out or answer.It would be irreverent to “pray” to another human being, or an angel for that matter, to forgive them of their sins against God, because no one less than God has the right to answer such a request. Yet we see no hint in the Acts narrative to suggest Stephens request was in any way blasphemous. And so David, tell me something, why is there some arbitrary rule that says when the request “receive my spirit” is said to Jesus, it is not a prayer, but if the exact same thing were said to the Father, it would normally, without controversy, be called a “prayer”?
Stephen’s request satisfies every criteria for what constitutes a prayer, and his prayer was made directly to Yahshua, a request to receive his spirit, something that is a prerogative of YHWH alone. Only someone with a preconceived notion that brings to the text the a priori proposition “one cannot pray to Jesus” that would reach any other conclusion that which is obvious, to any simple and plain reading of the text.
With regard to John’s speaking to Jesus, I think you need to ask yourself David whether such speech directed to the Father would be considered a “prayer”? Again, it is only the preconceived notion that brings to the text the a priori proposition “one cannot pray to Jesus” that would reach any other conclusion that which is obvious to any simple and plain reading of the text.
As an aside, don’t miss the significance of what Stephen said:
Acts 7:59
“And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on [God] and saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'
;” (Acts 7:59).According to Ecclesiastes 12:7 our spirit returns to Elohim, who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
“Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken…Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. “The Spirit returns to Him Who gave it and Stephen thought it appropriate that his spirit return to Yahshua. Isn’t that interesting.
Be well.
My thanks to my friend Ken for helping me with this portion of the reply.Hi Is1.18,
Do you say the call of Stephen has equal weight with Phil 4.6 in terms of what scripture reveals about whom we should pray to?
One is a scriptural direction, the other uses an example of a request.If I was to say to you “help me please” would that be a prayer?
If not what constitutes a prayer?
Cheers broQuote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 12 2005,08:25) The Spirit returns to Him Who gave it and Stephen thought it appropriate that his spirit return to Yahshua. Isn’t that interesting.
Hi Is.1.18
If your implication is that Stephen thought Yeshua was God remember that it was Stephen at that time who saw Yeshua standing at the right hand of God.
Acts 7.55f
” But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said
'Behold I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God'”
No trinity there. Yeshua was with God and Stephen was filled with the Spirit of God.Hi,
Does scripture ever say we SHOULD pray to Jesus? If yes where? If not should we do what scripture does not instruct us to do? Is that not presumption and rebellion?Greetings IS 1:18,
Yahshua Messiah is indeed worthy of worship, however, I wanted to point out some pertinant facts concerning the JWs ( New World Translation of the New Testament scriptures) which was not translated from the original manuscripts, but was translated from another translation based on thee original manuscripts.
In other words, the N.W.T of the New Testament is a translation from another translation or translated text but about thee original.
In the Appendix of the N.W.T. is references to the ” J sources “, and I might also mention that the ( N.W.T.) according to their own title pages, both the J-17 and J-18 Hebrew versions were produced by THE TRINITARIAN BIBLE SOCIETY, and this Organization is based in London England.
Question to David, Why did the New World Bible Translation Committee choose Hebrew versions produced by a Trinitarian Bible publisher as support for their New World Translation ?
It is also interesting to note that certain Critical verses( 1 Peter 2:3; 1 Peter 3:15 is two examples) in the ( N.W.T.) of the New Testament was altered from the translation original, and there are more texts as well, and certain texts which identifies Yahshua messiah with YHWH was also altered too.
I'm not the only person who knows this concerning the N.W.T., and this can be verified at the address below, and the Author of this site also has a FREE BOOKLET concerning this information on the N.W.T.
The Address is….
http://www.tetragrammaton.org/index.htm
I have more questions to ask David, however, I will wait for him and others to make their replies to your topic.
IS 1:18,
The N.W.T. and the Kingdom Interlinear translation themselves will dis-prove the JWs own position on the Nature of Yahshua Messiah more so than any other translation, and it can be proven by anyone truely familiar with them and their texts.
I realize that David may not like me pointing out these things, however, it is true and can be proven to be fact.
As far as I can tell, we believe exactly what Nick, t8 and you believe on the “nature of Yahshua Messiah.” We believe what the Bible says. If you wish to “dis-prove the JW's own position on the Nature of Yahshua Messiah” I'll just let Nick or t8 or whoever respond, because frankly, I've given up on you a while ago.
Or, am I wrong on you Eliyah? Are we to pray to Yahshua Eliyah?
That is after all what this thread is supposed to be about. If you go up and read it, you will find the words: “Prayer to Yahshua.”
Yet, you prefer to randomly pick away. You find some reference in some website and throw it down as quick as you can.
Yes Eliyah, you're on to us. We secretly believe in the trinity. You got us. No. So instead of discussing scripture, or helping Is 1:18 who thinks we should pray to Jesus, I'm here replying to another one of your posts, which I assume like most, no one knows what you're talking about. One can't help but wonder what anything you said has to do with this topic.
If you wanted to prove us wrong legitimately, why don't you go to the official website, see what we actually believe and the many scriptures that go with those beliefs, then show by scripture that those other scriptures are wrong somehow. Instead of the Bible, you search through websites hoping to find some vague reference to anything that might….
Listen, I'm pretty much done with conversing with you, as it is a subject in futility. I should have known after the baal gad thing and your vague reference to the KJ version that proves baal gad=lord god.I realize Eliyah may not like me pointing this out, but his madness is plain to all.
Quote (Eliyah @ Oct. 13 2005,01:15) Greetings IS 1:18, Yahshua Messiah is indeed worthy of worship, however, I wanted to point out some pertinant facts concerning the JWs ( New World Translation of the New Testament scriptures) which was not translated from the original manuscripts, but was translated from another translation based on thee original manuscripts.
In other words, the N.W.T of the New Testament is a translation from another translation or translated text but about thee original.
In the Appendix of the N.W.T. is references to the ” J sources “, and I might also mention that the ( N.W.T.) according to their own title pages, both the J-17 and J-18 Hebrew versions were produced by THE TRINITARIAN BIBLE SOCIETY, and this Organization is based in London England.
Question to David, Why did the New World Bible Translation Committee choose Hebrew versions produced by a Trinitarian Bible publisher as support for their New World Translation ?
It is also interesting to note that certain Critical verses( 1 Peter 2:3; 1 Peter 3:15 is two examples) in the ( N.W.T.) of the New Testament was altered from the translation original, and there are more texts as well, and certain texts which identifies Yahshua messiah with YHWH was also altered too.
I'm not the only person who knows this concerning the N.W.T., and this can be verified at the address below, and the Author of this site also has a FREE BOOKLET concerning this information on the N.W.T.
The Address is….
http://www.tetragrammaton.org/index.htm
I have more questions to ask David, however, I will wait for him and others to make their replies to your topic.
Hi eliyah,
We are not speaking of worship here but prayer.
Are you in Christ?
If so then how can you worship him you are in?
Does the toe or the finger worship the head?Daivid,
I was merely pointing out certain aspects and facts concerning the N.W.T., it is based on a later translation, and the J references that the N.W.T. is based on does not agree when studied together.
Why is that David ? Does it make you angry because I point out bias and errors in the N.W.T. ?
Oh no, I guess you don't want to discuss with me concerning certain BIAS scriptures that the N.W.Translation Committee altered from its original translation work of those Reference ” J sources “ do you ?
I also wonder how many honest believing people in the JWs Organization that don't know about some of these dis-statements in the Appendix of the N.W.T., and these scripture alterations which can be proven when checking these Reference J sources and the Kingdom Interlinear Translation when compared ?
Are you also inferring that the site I listed is in error against your Organization ? Well, you better go back to that site and LOOK AGAIN, and also read that OPEN LETTER on that website.
Well, people need to know the truth about these things concerning the N.W.T., instead of sweeping them under the rug, then you get hot under the collar at me, because I merely point them out to people.
Hi eliyah,
Is intention to upset David?
Are your attacks on the JW's in the wrong forum really the result of lofty motives or is it your joy to make people feel harassed?Nick,
Your accusing again, and your true Charactor and credibility could be in question remember ?
As I stated earlier in my post, I was pointing out facts concerning the New World Translation Bible, and asking David if he was aware of them, I don't see pointing out facts of bias and error in the New World Translation as harrassing David or anyone.
So, pointing out bias errors in the N.W.T.Bible to David is now called harassing him ?
I'm not harassing him or anyone, but you seem to love accusing me continually od something as usual from you.
Is not the true scriptures to prove the truth and expose the error?
Why is it, every time I expose errors in Bible translations that I'm accused of something or the other by those who want to keep and cling to those errors of preferred traditions?
Hi eliyah,
Pointing things out is helpful. Constant repetition can get a little wearying. Targeting a person with the same information in a demanding fashion could be termed harassment.Quote (david @ Oct. 13 2005,02:48) So instead of discussing scripture, or helping Is 1:18 who thinks we should pray to Jesus
Help me what David? move out of a relationship with Jesus? Thanks but I would rather have koinonia with Him. How do you have koinonia with Him David?Nick,
I'm not going to argue with you concerning your own conceited definition of harassment, however, pointing out preferred bias errors of different Scripture translations is not harassing anyone.
You avoided my questions again as usual.
Hi eliyah,
We are to expose error but Peter put it well
” Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honour the king”
and
” Keep your behaviour excellent among the gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may, on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God on the day of their visitation”I was not quoting from a website that talks down about the JWs, please read this open letter below.
Click on and read, as a matter of fact they were commending the Witnesses.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 12 2005,21:24) Hi,
But then it says Paul entreated the Lord to take the thorn in the flesh away.[2Cor 12.8]
Hi,So those in Christ commune with Yeshua. Those outside of Christ cannot do so.
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