Pleasure of sin

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 03 2010,17:41)

Quote (Shania @ Dec. 03 2010,17:51)

I'm sorry TK, but I find a lot of what you wrote to be really dangerous. Sexual thoughts about someone who is not your spouse is sin. Are you saying that when you are a believer, you can do immoral things and it is not sin because you are not under the law? Grace does not nullify the law, it upholds it. Do you think that I can commit murder and it not be sin if my conscience does not condemn me? (b/c I am under grace?)

I agree.

Sin seperates us from God.

Take for example what you said here, sexual thoughts about someone else who is not your partner.

Firstly, what is considered a marriage ?

To say a couple are 'living in sin' because they are not “legally wed' is rubbish.

Marriage is not a piece of paper – Marriage is when it is consumated. (Or considering what Jesus said it could also very well be when two single people lust after each other….I dont know) ?

And the only allowance for divorce/remarriage or being with someone else in the New Testement apart from death is if your partner commits adultery, or if you are abandoned.

Considering all of that, Adultery which is a sin changed….

Jesus said – “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery;' but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.'

When the Holy Spirit leads you, you learn what is right and wrong and stop sinning, you become aware of sin as you read scripture. You become a 'new you'. There is no excuse once you know. You are sinning and it needs to stop.

Thats what scripture says.

Shimmer & Shania: Greetings, God bless you. You say that what I wrote was really dangerous and went on to expound on sexual thoughts of someone who is not their spouse as a sin.

Yet you would say that Jesus never sinned and yet he set the lady, caught in adultry, free and would not condemn her sin if in fact it was a sin. This could only be one of two things.

Either it was not a sin/error/wron as believed by her and her accusors.
Or since there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus it is not juged as a sin or held against her. Either choice, same outcome.

You mentioned, that I could do immoral things when I say I am a believer?

I say, if you believe the perfection, peace, and love that Jesus gave to you, lives in you and you have the love of God in your heart, the only fruit that you could possibly produce ouside of you will be love. Thats why I say Jesus took away our sin and gave us perfection through love.

I'm sure your idea of immorality and mine and society itself are three different things. Between two consenting adults there is no law but their own. IMO!
Jesus didn't follow the law, Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus worked on the sabbath, didn't pay temple tax until attention was brought, didn't follow washings, ate and drank with what you would call sinners. Jesus didn't offer sacrifices in the temple. Jesus didn't honor the laws' Sabbath Day. Jesus didn't follow anyone or anything. Jesus was a leader of all leaders. Jesus didn't baptize with water. So how well do we know this Jesus? Jesus was under no one's law.

About murder. Can you commit murder. Picture someone you love dearly or a dog or cat, friend, grandparent. No matter, the fact that you love them deeply. Can you take a gun or any weapon and kill them for no reason? If you have God in your heart you cannot consider murder. Its not in your heart/mind.

This I know. If we all had God/love/peace/joy in our hearts there would be no concern about murder. Religion teaches what worms and dogs we are and how sinful and unrighteous we are. People are quick to say they are sinners and not perfect, and are not free to do as they please because of that dark trash coming from religion.

Friends, I must say, that much religious, life destroying, darkness & lies in your heart and mind is enough destructive power to cause one to murder.

Jesus came to clean the inside first so the outside would reflect the real person. If you are filled with life on the inside you will express love and life on the outside and you will live abundantly. IMO, TK

December 16, 2010 at 3:12 am#228950

Shania

Participant

Hi TK!

It's true: Jesus set the adulteress free and did not condemn her, and this is what he said:

John 8:9-11
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
NIV

I am not denying forgiveness of sin. We would be in a HEAP of trouble if not forgiven. But he did tell her to leave her life of sin. (so that means that it was sin, and she needed to stop)

Once you become a believer, you are washed clean. Your walk will not be perfect and you will stumble. That is what grace is for. You repent, you are forgiven, and you are clean again. As you mature, your love grows and you stumble less and less. However, a warning goes out to those who deliberately continue in sin after recieving the knowledge of the truth:

Heb 10:26-27

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
NIV

I am curious- what do you think that verse means?
My thought is that if they 'recieved' the knowledge, at one point it belonged to them- it was a part of them. But they still managed to sin! I don't understand how your logic could explain that.

December 16, 2010 at 3:35 am#228960

Shania

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 10 2010,16:43)

Jesus didn't follow the law, Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus worked on the sabbath, didn't pay temple tax until attention was brought, didn't follow washings, ate and drank with what you would call sinners. Jesus didn't offer sacrifices in the temple. Jesus didn't honor the laws' Sabbath Day. Jesus didn't follow anyone or anything. Jesus was a leader of all leaders. Jesus didn't baptize with water. So how well do we know this Jesus? Jesus was under no one's law.

I agree with you that Jesus was not 'religious' and 'legalistic.' That's actually one of my favorite things about him! The only thing that I don't agree with is when you said “Jesus didn't follow anyone or anything.” and “Jesus was under no one's law.” That's not true. He was under his Father's:

John 10:18
this command I received from my Father .”
NIV

John 10:37-38
37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
NIV

John 14:31
31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
NIV

John 15:15
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
NIV

Submission is key to the Kingdom. Why? Because in YHWH's Kingdom, only His will is accomplished. So we submit to Jesus (Yahuashua) and He submits to YHWH. Jesus set aside his own will to do His father's and we have to do the same. If He had to resist temptation and resist his own will, why wouldn't we? He's the pattern son.

I am not saying 'you need to be moral in everything you choose and society will show you whats right and wrong'
No, even doing the 'right' thing with the wrong heart motive can be sin. Like if I wanted to memorize the bible in order to beat people over the head with it.

December 16, 2010 at 3:44 am#228963

Shania

Participant

Let's say I'm an alcoholic. I get saved, but still have a chemical addiction in my body. I know that if I have one drink, I will not be able to stop and I will do much damage to myself and loved ones.

If I now have a drink, (and get drunk), is that a sin? Or is it not a sin simply because I'm a christian? It's still the same act and still has the same damaging effects, but are you saying that because I believe in Jesus I can go on doing what I've always done and it is no longer sin?

December 16, 2010 at 10:51 am#229008

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 10 2010,02:43)

Shimmer & Shania: Greetings, God bless you. You say that what I wrote was really dangerous and went on to expound on sexual thoughts of someone who is not their spouse as a sin.

Yet you would say that Jesus never sinned and yet he set the lady, caught in adultry, free and would not condemn her sin if in fact it was a sin. This could only be one of two things.

Either it was not a sin/error/wron as believed by her and her accusors.
Or since there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus it is not juged as a sin or held against her. Either choice, same outcome.

You mentioned, that I could do immoral things when I say I am a believer?

Friends, I must say, that much religious, life destroying, darkness & lies in your heart and mind is enough destructive power to cause one to murder.

Sorry Tim, I missed this.

I do agree with a lot of what you wrote here. Jesus was an Anarchist in a way. [Have you ever read Christi -Anarchy by Dave Andrews].

December 16, 2010 at 11:30 am#229015

theodorej

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 16 2010,20:51)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 10 2010,02:43)

Shimmer & Shania: Greetings, God bless you. You say that what I wrote was really dangerous and went on to expound on sexual thoughts of someone who is not their spouse as a sin.

Yet you would say that Jesus never sinned and yet he set the lady, caught in adultry, free and would not condemn her sin if in fact it was a sin. This could only be one of two things.

Either it was not a sin/error/wron as believed by her and her accusors.
Or since there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus it is not juged as a sin or held against her. Either choice, same outcome.

You mentioned, that I could do immoral things when I say I am a believer?

Friends, I must say, that much religious, life destroying, darkness & lies in your heart and mind is enough destructive power to cause one to murder.

Sorry Tim, I missed this.

I do agree with a lot of what you wrote here. Jesus was an Anarchist in a way. [Have you ever read Christi -Anarchy by Dave Andrews].

Greetings Shimmer…..Jesus was in no way an anarchist he was a teacher and his lesson was the Good news and that was that we do not have to adhere to ritualistic nonsense in order to please God…..He lived under civil law…He preached that we were to render to caeser what was caeser…so Iam sure he paid taxes otherwise he would have been a hypocrit…An anachists' mission is to destroy and decimate any diciplines he or she might disagree with…The fruits of an anarchist is mayhem,confusion and in most cases death…Does this sound like the ministry Jesus presided over…

December 16, 2010 at 11:49 am#229019

Participant

Hi Ted. You have to understand what it means. The book is good, really.

December 20, 2010 at 4:28 pm#229414

Participant

Shimmer: I still wish somebody could show me where sin, from its beginning was ever deeds done, good or bad. Sin is in the heart/mind first. Deeds also start in the heart/mind. Everything we do starts in the mind, we think and then do. Sin, deeds, works, all start in the mind with thoughts. Good thoughts or bad thoughts. Bad thoughts would be thoughts away from God or apart from God. God is spirit, God is words of spirit, God is truth, Gods words are life. Any words, thoughts or contemplations in your mind, of God being angry with you,

thoughts of pain and suffering, destructive thoughts, thoughts of separation from God, thoughts of dis-union from God for something you have done, are all sin thoughts or condemnation even of yourself as bad or wrong! Do not condemn yourself. Holding a grudge against someone or blaming yourself for what you have judged as a wrong pertaining to God, is sin. Paul said to one person, one thing might be a sin to another, twenty things are not sin and some may believe everything is sin. Just have your own judgment party on yourself and let

the others be free. Holding hate, a grudge, sin, wrong, or bad feelings against anyone for anything block and covers some of the power of God that worketh within you. The purer your mind of contrary thoughts the more powerful your annointing can flow to the world around you. IMO, TK

December 20, 2010 at 11:04 pm#229427

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 21 2010,02:28)

Shimmer:
I still wish somebody could show me where sin, from its beginning was ever deeds done, good or bad.

Hi Tim,

Ask and you shall receive!

Gen.3:13 And the LORD God said unto the
woman, What is this that thou hast done? And
the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Gen.3:14 And the LORD God said unto the
serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed
above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy
belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen.4:10 And he said, What hast thou done?
the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 21, 2010 at 10:38 am#229489

Participant

Ed, Tim was talking to me ? If he wanted you to answer then he would have said…Ed ?

December 21, 2010 at 11:05 am#229490

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 21 2010,04:28)

Hi Tim.

I went to an Adventist church and they followed the sabbath and it seemed the sabbath was everything. They say not following the sabbath is the mark of the beast.

I stopped going.

There are some thing's I agree with you.

But what about where it says in James 5 ;

“He who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins”.

Or in Jude 1

“On some have compassion, making a distinction, and some save, snatching them out of the fire with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh”.

I know right from wrong. Theres also things I learn as I go. Theres also things I think are wrong but only after I find out I was wrong to think it was wrong…if that makes sense ?

December 21, 2010 at 11:11 am#229492

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 21 2010,22:38)

Ed, Tim was talking to me ? If he wanted you to answer then he would have said…Ed ?

Ed, I apologize for saying that.

December 21, 2010 at 12:12 pm#229495

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 21 2010,21:05)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 21 2010,04:28)

Hi Tim.

I went to an Adventist church and they followed the sabbath and it seemed the sabbath was everything. They say not following the sabbath is the mark of the beast.

I stopped going.

There are some thing's I agree with you.

But what about where it says in James 5 ;

“He who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins”.

Or in Jude 1

“On some have compassion, making a distinction, and some save, snatching them out of the fire with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh”.

I know right from wrong. Theres also things I learn as I go. Theres also things I think are wrong but only after I find out I was wrong to think it was wrong…if that makes sense ?

Shimmer; God bless you kindness and patience;

We can both see that the word sin was not used in the story of Adam and Eve. They were told if they partook of good and evil they would die. This is true. They began the death walk when they accepted evil/death with life. God still says the same thing today, I set before you life and death, but choose life that you may live. You might say, truth and lies, or gospel or bad news Are we choosing life or death? If you choose to continue to believe in sin, after Jesus took away sin then are we not choosing death still?

If we choose to believe what Jesus says from God we are made perfect unto God. If we sill believe in sin and that we sin everyday then we have chosen evil/death.

If we insist on making sin/death something you do or don't do then freedom from sin has nothing to do with Jesus. His sacrifice was worthless. We always could have saved ourselves. I don't believe that for a moment. I am who I am only through what Jesus did. He took away all our sin forever and for the whold world. He gave it to us freely. It seems to good to be true. Thats why Jesus was a stumbling block to the Jews.

Now preachers like Ed want to return to vomit like a dog if you will. Why would anyone reject so great a salvation as that provided by Jesus BY FAITH to go back to sin and death. We have been redeemed from curse of the law. The curse of the law was sin and death. Shall we reject Jesus and return to sin/death? I won't. If you accept Jesus' words of God then you have chosen life and not death. Lets choose life!!

Its hard for non preachers to keep thier minds clear long enough to build a foundation on Jesus. Preachers are dupped at seminary/nursery school with mans traditions passed down for generations. The blind are taught blindness. They are the first to pound you. Most of their doctrines are the firery darts of destruction that come to kill, steal and destroy the truth from Jesus.

Sin is believing incorrectly within. Sin is self-condemning oneself as inadequit. Sin is holding against another for anything. Sin is believing in sin. Sin is believing anything you do separates you from God. Sin is believing anything apart from Jesus' truth.
If you believe you are not perfect through Christ you are in sin. No sinner can be in Christ. God cannot dwell in sin. If one believes is sin he has chosen death. IMO much has been misunderstood through some slanted translations, but most of the destruction I have seen comes from the hierarchy of each so called church building.

I am attempting to turn sinners (those who believe in sin) from the error of their way.

….hating even the clothing stained by the “flesh” or “old way” or “old covenant” or “old physical way” “works way”. Any non faith way.

The truth is in each individual, and it makes you free. God bless you, TK

December 21, 2010 at 6:18 pm#229510

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 21 2010,22:12)

Shimmer;

If we insist on making sin/death something you do or don't do then freedom from sin has nothing to do with Jesus. His sacrifice was worthless. We always could have saved ourselves.

Hi Tim,

1) The bible says we cannot remove our own sin. (Heb.9:22)

2) If we(you too) sin willfully after we have been cleansed,
there remains no more sacrifice for our sins! (Heb.10:26)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 21, 2010 at 6:19 pm#229511

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 21 2010,22:12)

Now preachers like Ed want to return to vomit like a dog if you will.

Hi Tim,

Are 'you' calling God's Laws 'vomit'?

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 21, 2010 at 10:21 pm#229529

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,04:18)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 21 2010,22:12)

Shimmer;

If we insist on making sin/death something you do or don't do then freedom from sin has nothing to do with Jesus. His sacrifice was worthless. We always could have saved ourselves.

Hi Tim,

1) The bible says we cannot remove our own sin. (Heb.9:22)

2) If we(you too) sin willfully after we have been cleansed,
there remains no more sacrifice for our sins! (Heb.10:26)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed: Our sin has been removed as far as the east is from the west through Jesus and his finished work unto God!

If you believe that Jesus took away your sin, then it is so!
If you don't believe Jesus took away your sin, then it remains!

Are you saying we can sin but we cannot remove the sin?

Jesus took away the sin of the world, I accept that truth so I have no sin! If you believe you have sin, then you retain the sin you believe you have.

You are the one saying if we sin after we have been cleansed (by faith) there remains no more sacrifice for our sin/error of belief. In other words you are saying that the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't enough to cover your sin. The truth is believe and you recieve cleanliness, reject your sinlessness through Jesus and retain your sin! IMO, TK

December 21, 2010 at 10:35 pm#229530

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 22 2010,08:21)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,04:18)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 21 2010,22:12)

Shimmer;

If we insist on making sin/death something you do or don't do then freedom from sin has nothing to do with Jesus. His sacrifice was worthless. We always could have saved ourselves.

Hi Tim,

1) The bible says we cannot remove our own sin. (Heb.9:22)

2) If we(you too) sin willfully after we have been cleansed,
there remains no more sacrifice for our sins! (Heb.10:26)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed: Our sin has been removed as far as the east is from the west through Jesus and his finished work unto God!

If you believe that Jesus took away your sin, then it is so!
If you don't believe Jesus took away your sin, then it remains!

A) Are you saying we can sin but we cannot remove the sin?

Jesus took away the sin of the world, I accept that truth so I have no sin! If you believe you have sin, then you retain the sin you believe you have.

You are the one saying if we sin after we have been cleansed (by faith) there remains no more sacrifice for our sin/error of belief. In other words you are saying that the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't enough to cover your sin. The truth is believe and you recieve cleanliness, (B)reject your sinlessness through Jesus and retain your sin! IMO, TK

Hi Tim,

A) Yes; but when we repent, Jesus sacrifice removes those sins too. (1John 1:9)

B) Why do you present the opposite of what I say?
Perfection is not sinning. (Eph.4:12-13)
Why do you dismiss God's Laws?

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 21, 2010 at 10:37 pm#229531

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,04:19)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 21 2010,22:12)

Now preachers like Ed want to return to vomit like a dog if you will.

Hi Tim,

Are 'you' calling God's Laws 'vomit'?

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed: God went to great lengths to send the truth to mankind to save them from the laws of sin and death. They were in darkness and didn't know where God was. The were making up rules and regulations and rituals and thousands of laws of how to please or pacify God. They laid heavy burdens on the people, chains of rules that bound them to harsh works and great effort to please God. That is most of the old testament not including Psalms, Proverbs, and the Prophets.

The new testament is the truth of God presented by Jesus. He presented the true food and drink of God. Jesus did the work for us so we don't have to. Jesus has laid out the table of God, with all cleansed, perfected, sinless, worthy, brothers and sisters to come and receive the fulness of God by faith.

Just as Adams original choice of good and evil, God has laid before us life/good or death/evil. Its your choice. If you choose the way of Jesus, you choose life. If you go back to the old way its like returning to poison!! IMO, TK

December 21, 2010 at 10:43 pm#229532

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 22 2010,08:37)

Ed:

The were making up rules and regulations and rituals and thousands of laws of how to please or pacify God. They laid heavy burdens on the people, chains of rules that bound them to harsh works and great effort to please God.

IMO, TK

Hi Tim,

I wasn't talking about man's laws?
I was talking about God's Laws!

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be
fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 22, 2010 at 11:27 am#229629