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In response to Nick Hassan's post below:
Quote
I am in the real church and still looking for a local fellowship that agrees with the bible.You know what they say….if you ever find the perfect church don't go to it…it won't be perfect when you do.
Here is a serious question though:
Given that 99%+ of professing christians belong to denominational churches, in who's best interest is it when an individual member rejects all churches on doctrinal grounds, physically isolates him/herself from christian fellowship and never again seeks it, God's or Satan's?Romans 1:12
that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine.Hebrews 10:24, 25
24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.I think Jesus used the shephard/sheep analogy frequently, for a number of reasons. One of which is: there is safety in numbers, particularly when:
“the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. ” (1 Peter 5:8)
What do you think?
Hi Is,
Since the letter was addressed to mine I guess I had better reply.I think everyone has to make their own mind up on this issue.
First of all I believe fellowship with the head of the body is the number one priority.
Secondly you can have excellent fellowship between individuals who are in Christ and I do enjoy that.
So do you need a denominational fellowship as well?
Did Paul have frequent group fellowship except with those whom he had helped establish in Christ? Would you judge him for that?
There is a body. We pray to “our Father” and not “my Father”
1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Obviously not all fellowship is good. Therefore, beware of your fellowships. But I believe that fellowship with believers is important. That fellowship should be for the edification of the Church. After all its the Church that are the Children of God and the Gospel is all about become the Children of God. Therefore, the collective body of believers is the Mother nurturing the Children. Everyone knows a Child needs their mother. But be not afraid for the Father knows what we need before we need it.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.Don't fellowship with non-believers for the sake of fellowshipping. The believer has God as their Father and can trust in that Father to help them.
Paul
Hi,
If the Lord takes you out of unholy fellowship by following him should we not continue to follow him rather than rushing to in security in the company of men?1Cor 7.23
” you have been bought for a price;do not become slaves of men”Trettep, Nick:
Is a trinitarian a “believer”?Quote (Guest @ April 21 2005,06:46) Trettep, Nick:
Is a trinitarian a “believer”?
I don't know MM.What do you think a believer is?
Hi guys,
It seems to me that God is a restorer, One who brings together. Satan, on the other hand, appears to have an agenda of fracturing, separating…..divide and conquer as they say.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 21 2005,05:58) Given that 99%+ of professing christians belong to denominational churches, in who's best interest is it when an individual member rejects all churches on doctrinal grounds, physically isolates him/herself from christian fellowship and never again seeks it, God's or Satan's?
I doubt your quote that 99% of christians fellowship at a denomination. I cannot verify the following stat, but I was told by a pastor of a denomination in New Zealand that the previous census showed that most people who believe in God and Jesus (which was a much higher percentage than many thought) do not regularly go to church. In fact if we defined a christian as one who belonged to a denomination or regularly goes to a denomination, then New Zealand is not very christian at all. He was very concerned about this, wondering how to get all these so-called “out of church” people back. I wasn't worried at all. I see the Church in a different way than the physical way that most seem to view her.Does anyone have any real figures on how many who have faith (believe in God and his son) and actually belong to a denomination?
In my experience, I know plenty of christians who do not belong to a denomination. The denomination I use to go to (4 years ago) now has mainly a new congregation. Where did the old congregation go? They got older and wiser and moved on in life. Some fellowship in other denominations, but many do not. I can't believe that those who do not have all lost their faith. In fact I still keep in touch with some of them and of those people, they still love God and believe in the scriptures, with the exception of perhaps one person. Rather these people just got fed up with the same old crap to put it bluntly. Many were quite young at the time, but as they got older many just simply got wiser and put their old denomination in a bigger context. I think that this may not be an isolated case, but perhaps a repeating pattern.
I do not belong to a denomination, but I do get fellowship. I would like more admittedly. But to those who do not, I have a suggestion. Make disciples. That will also ensure that you get fellowship.
If we think about it, the early church must have faced times and places where fellowship was scarce. But they just extended the kingdom of God, rather than look for what was already there. In some places there was nothing there anyway.
Satan couldn't destroy the Church as he tried so hard in the beginning with persecution and death. But he devised a way to control it (perhaps plan B). By using his world system, he simply infiltrated the Church and set up his system within the Church. We see in Constantine's time the same leader of Rome (the beast) was also the same guy who organised and defined Christianity. Through this system, the holy day, and holydays (holidays), the books and the creed were all setup and bound together. It makes it easier to control this way and Rome was all about control.
The system that we call denominations today is simply about control. Satan cannot control the Church because Jesus is the head. But he can control the system. He only needs to get christians to believe that the system itself is the church and then he indirectly has control.
Look at history. The Church system controlled scripture to the point that christians were not even allowed to read it. And then the priests had to read and speak the scripture in Latin. The system controlled what you believed and it happily took your money too. It even had the power to put to death those who apposed her and she persecuted many including christians, even scientists who didn't agree with their flat earth policy. Now we see that this system has many leaders who just also happen to be sexual perverts. Perhaps this has been the case for centuries. It's just that it is exposed now. The outside of the cup looks clean, but inside it is full of death. Having a form of godliness…
Wisen up. The Church system is about control. It is corrupt. It is there to rob you of your potential in God, by making you conform to a certain image. The system has divided up the body of Christ into meaningless partitions which stops the unity of the brethren that is required for the world to believe that Jesus is the Christ. What good is a hand if it is not in unison with the head and the other parts?
Once you are assimilated into that system, it then becomes very easy to just sit at the back and be entertained by 5% of the congregation who seem to be overworked. God never intended for the Church to be run as if it were a factory of mindless workers being lead by 5% management. This system creates luke-warm people. Hot people are usually expelled from this system as they are not conformers.
As it is written: “Come out of her my people, for her sins have piled up to heaven”. “Pay her back twice what she gave you.”
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2005,03:52) Hi guys,
It seems to me that God is a restorer, One who brings together. Satan, on the other hand, appears to have an agenda of fracturing, separating…..divide and conquer as they say.
This generalisation is too simple.God restores truth and will cast away/divide anything that is not of him.
Matthew 10:34-35
34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughterinlaw against her motherinlawQuote (t8 @ April 21 2005,10:22) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2005,03:52) Hi guys,
It seems to me that God is a restorer, One who brings together. Satan, on the other hand, appears to have an agenda of fracturing, separating…..divide and conquer as they say.
This generalisation is too simple.God restores truth and will cast away/divide anything that is not of him.
Matthew 10:34-35
34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughterinlaw against her motherinlaw
Amen t8.
Bless you Is 1.18Hi,
1 COR 11.18F
” For in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you;and in part I believe it.
FOR THERE MUST ALSO BE FACTIONS AMONG YOU IN ORDER THAT THOSE WHO ARE APPROVED MAY HAVE BECOME EVIDENT AMONG YOU”Matt 10 34
” Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's worst enemies will be the members of his household”God is putting us all through the crucible of fire. Be encouraged.
Hi,
1Jn 1.3f
“what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you may also have FELLOWSHIP WITH US;and indeed our FELLOWSHIP IS WITH THE FATHER, AND WITH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST…….If we say that we have FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin”
So John refers here to fellowship at several levels
With the Father
With the Son
With each other.It is impossible to felllowship with the Father without being joined to the Son. Fellowship with the Son ensures fellowship with the Father and the shared blessing of His Spirit.
Unless we not only share in but walk in the light of truth, in the Spirit of Truth, we cannot have fellowship with each other. The Word is Truth. This is the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit shared among His people that naturally should make us one.
We need to be controlled by this Spirit that unites and discard the spirit that divides and is not of God but of sin. Only those in Jesus share the Spirit of Jesus.
Thus we have 2 cor 13.14
” The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God , and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all”Any other basis for fellowship-religion, family, denomination-is not true fellowship. Sadly those in true fellowship are often hated by those comfortably ensconsed in false fellowship following human teachers and leaders and doctrines.
Good Lord, t8, I read your post above and I had to look to make sure that it wasn't something that I had written. It only concurred with my beliefs almost exactly. I knew there had to be others with the same understanding as mine.
It was that same control 'in the church' that crucified Jesus. Things haven't changed that much.
Scripture confirms that Satan has introduced a counterfeit religion with his very own “ministers of righteousness” deceiving the “whole world”. The woman of Revelation 12 is spiritual Israel or the Church. Her son is Jesus Christ. The imagery of 12:1-6 is UNMISTAKABLE. Later, after the dragon is kicked out of heaven (v. 9), Satan's anger is directed towards the church (God's chosen). He couldn't stop the Master (Jesus) from planting His seed (His ministry, or commission), so now his attempt is to destroy His harvest. Verse 15 says that the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood (in an attempt to 'drown' her). The 'flood' he sends is not literal water, of course, but is propaganda, half-truths, and lies: dogma, doctrine, creeds, rituals, and traditions. Satan's power has always been in his MOUTH: He is the ACCUSER, the Father of all Lies.
The REMNANT of her 'seed' are identified as “those which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (v.17).
Many follow that path (Satan's counterfeit church) through the “broad gate”, but few find their way through the “narrow gate” (the remnant). Many are called but few are chosen. It is “the small flock”, the elect or the chosen few who “overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
Hey thanks.
When I first believed in God, I like many, was told that I have to belong to a denomination. When I did that, God gave me a dream of a zoo and in one of the cages was me and those who went to the denomination I went to. I didn't understand it at the time, but I was a little annoyed because I had nothing but positive affirmation from the Lord up until that point. But as I grew older it dawned on me what that prison represented, it was the traditions of men and mans works (a form of godliness). The traditions and creeds are the bars that hold many inside the antichrist structure that poses as the true Church.
I now realise that we are the Church, that is why I cannot go to Church. Although I am free to fellowship anywhere, so long as I see the true Church, which are those who have the Spirit of God.
Hi,
Where is the greater danger? Following men or seeking to follow the Word of God? Men who are saved still seem to prefer to follow men out of fear of failure or self doubt, preferring the teachings of others to the inner witness of the Spirit of God.
“Come out of her my people”Thanks Nick.
First, I've never liked the word “church.” It's a misleading word and one that Elijah says comes from pagan origins.
The words “church” and “churches” occur over 110 times in the King James Version. Other translations also use these terms. The Greek word translated “church” literally means “a calling forth,” or, in other words, a gathering of people. For example, Acts 7:38, in the King James Version, tells of Moses being “in the church in the wilderness,” that is, among the congregated nation of Israel. In another instance the Scriptures state that “a bitter persecution started against the church,” referring to the community of Christians in Jerusalem. (Acts 8:1, The Jerusalem Bible) In one of his letters, Paul greets “the church in [Philemon’s] house,” the local congregation that met there.—Philemon 2, Revised Standard Version.
Clearly, the term “church” as used in the Bible designates, not a place of worship, but rather a group of worshipers. Acknowledging this, Clement of Alexandria, a second-century religious teacher, wrote: “Not the place, but the congregation of the elect, I call the Church.” Still, must Christians be present at a specific location or building in order for their worship to be acceptable to God?
Worship in the Nation of Israel
The Law of Moses required that all Jewish men be present at a specific location for three annual festivals. Many women and young ones also attended. (Deuteronomy 16:16; Luke 2:41-44) On certain occasions the priests and the Levites taught the congregated throngs, reading from God’s Law. They ‘expounded it, put meaning into it, and gave understanding in the reading.’(Nehemiah 8:8) For Sabbath years, God’s direction stated: “Congregate the people, the men and the women and the little ones and your alien resident who is within your gates, in order that they may listen and in order that they may learn, as they must fear Jehovah your God and take care to carry out all the words of this law.”—Deuteronomy 31:12.
Only at the temple in Jerusalem could a person offer sacrifices to God and receive instruction from the priests. (Deuteronomy 12:5-7; 2 Chronicles 7:12) In time, other houses of worship were established in Israel—the synagogues. These were locations for the reading of the Scriptures and for praying. Still, the temple in Jerusalem was the principal place of worship. This is illustrated by what the Bible writer Luke reports. He mentions an elderly woman named Anna, who was “never missing from the temple, rendering sacred service night and day with fastings and supplications.” (Luke 2:36, 37) True worship with other devoted ones was the focal point of Anna’s life. Other God-fearing Jews followed a similar course.
True Worship After Christ’s Death
After Jesus’ death his followers were no longer under the Mosaic Law, nor were they required to worship at the temple. (Galatians 3:23-25) Still, they continued to meet together for prayer and study of God’s Word. They had no elaborate buildings, using instead private homes and public places. (Acts 2:1, 2; 12:12; 19:9; Romans 16:4, 5) Free of ritualism and pomp, those first-century Christian meetings had a beautiful simplicity.
Amid the moral gloom of the Roman Empire, the Bible principles taught at those meetings sparkled like diamonds. Some unbelievers attending for the first time could only exclaim: “God is really among you.” (1 Corinthians 14:24, 25) Yes, God was really among them. “Therefore, indeed, the congregations [“churches,” RS, JB] continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number from day to day.”—Acts 16:5.
Could a Christian at that time have God’s approval by worshiping in pagan temples or on his own? The Bible gives clear direction on this matter: Approved worshipers had to become part of the only true church, or congregation, the “one body” of genuine worshipers. These were the disciples of Jesus, known as Christians.—Ephesians 4:4, 5; Acts 11:26.
What About Today?
Instead of encouraging us to worship in a church, the Bible encourages us to worship with the church, “the congregation of the living God,” the people who “worship with spirit and truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15; John 4:24) Religious meetings approved by God should instruct people “in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion.” (2 Peter 3:11) They should help those present to become mature Christians, who can “distinguish both right and wrong.”—Hebrews 5:14.
Jehovah’s Witnesses strive to follow the model of the first-century Christians. Over 96,000 congregations worldwide meet regularly to study the Bible and encourage one another, doing so in Kingdom Halls, private homes, and other locations.
This is in harmony with the apostle Paul’s words:“Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together.”—Hebrews 10:24, 25.
david
Hi David,
Paul tells us we are temples.Yeshua said
Jn 4.21
” Woman, believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father. You worship that which you do not know;we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is,when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth;for such people the Fathe seeks to be His worshippers. God is Spirit ; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth”Where does it say here a certain day, or place or building or public assembly is necessary for true worship?
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