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Quote Are 'harpagamos' or 'harpazo' ever used in the Bible in a way that doesn't mean 'snatch at'? Just curious what you responce to that would be. dave
Hi David,
Harpagamos is only ever used once in the Bible, Philippians 2:6. The Greek word is actually a noun formed from the verb 'harpazō' and it's meaning varies depending on whether an active or the passive sense is intended. How can you tell?Context.
If Paul wanted to unambiguously convey the active sense violent seizing/snatching of equality then that begs the obvious question – why didn't he simply use the Greek word 'harpazō', like John did to convey 'taking by force' in John 10:
John 10:12
“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches (Gr. harpazō) them and scatters them.John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch (Gr. harpazō) them out of the Father's hand.The Greek word harpazō (to seize, catch [away, up], pluck, pull, take [by force]) was available to Paul, and he used it elsewhere:
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a man was caught up [Gr. harpazō] to the third heaven.1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.But the fact is he didn't use harpazō in Phil 2:6. Instead he chose to use a noun formed from that verb that allows for a passive tense 'retaining' when the context dictates. Thayer the unitarian scholar who wrote the standard Greek lexicon of the New Testament, renders the passages as follows:
“[Christ Jesus], who, although (formerly when he was [logos asarkos]) bore the form (in which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven) of God (the sovereign, opposite to[morphe doulos]), yet did not think that this equality with God was to be eagerly clung to or retained” (p. 418, Col. b).
Blessings
Is 1:18Hi Is 1.18,
Why spend so much energy trying to show that the Son is equal to the Father unless your purpose is just to defend a trinity theory about God? You must spend equal energy surely to prove there is another equal third person of no name in God if your efforts are to seem fairly distributed.The third person, the father of Jesus if God is a trinity according to Matt 1.20, always seems to get the short straw in this mad mission.
Forget all this foolishness and lay a sound foundation of faith.
Abandon the leaking vessel before she sinks and swallows you up too.Quote Hi Is 1.18,
Why spend so much energy trying to show that the Son is equal to the Father unless your purpose is just to defend a trinity theory about God? You must spend equal energy surely to prove there is another equal third person of no name in God if your efforts are to seem fairly distributed.The third person, the father of Jesus if God is a trinity according to Matt 1.20, always seems to get the short straw in this mad mission.
Forget all this foolishness and lay a sound foundation of faith.
Abandon the leaking vessel before she sinks and swallows you up too.NH
No because its understood that the Father and the Son is one with the Spirit.
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Jesus. To take what he hears from the Father and the Son and show it unto us!
Rev 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the **testimony of Jesus**: worship God: for the **testimony of Jesus** is the spirit of prophecy.NH
Quote Hi Is 1.18,
Why spend so much energy trying to show that the Son is equal to the Father unless your purpose is just to defend a trinity theory about God?Open your eyes and look!
JESUS' EQUALITY WITH GOD
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MATTHEW 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and {their} ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with {their} eyes, and hear with {their} ears, and should understand with {their} heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
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ISAIAH 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.
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JEREMIAH 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.
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MATTHEW 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, {thou} that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under {her} wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
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JOHN 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: (38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
JOHN 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
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ISAIAH 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (2) Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (3) And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, {is} the Lord of hosts: the whole earth {is} full of his glory. (4) And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) Then said I, Woe {is} me! for I am undone; because I {am} a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.<<<JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”}
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
TITUS 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; {RSV,NIV: “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}Compare
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
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Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: {RSV, NIV: “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}
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Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
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HEBREWS 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: {God the Father calls the Son “Lord.”REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Arche (“Beginning”) The Greek for “beginning” is arche, from which we get our word “architect.” Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is “origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle.” So the above verse is describing Jesus as the “architect,” or Creator of the Universe. In Rev 21:6 “arche” is applied to the Father, so it can't possibly mean “created being,” as Jehovah's Witnesses and other heretics maintain.Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
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MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
REVELATION 5:8 . . . the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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REVELATION 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.With
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:With
MATTHEW 9:4 And
Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .Compare
JEREMIAH 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
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MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.Compare
DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
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LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon {God}, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
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Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch(Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Compare
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.With
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)Isa 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
Hi W,
You quote
“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the **testimony of Jesus**: worship God: for the **testimony of Jesus** is the spirit of prophecy. “So the angel told you to worship God.
Why do you not listen to him either?Hi,
Phil 2 shows us the independant nature of Christ before he came. He EXISTED in the form of God but did not seek equality with God. Being in the form of God does not mean sharing God's being. So he was able to judge and evaluate his own prospects and had his own will to decide for himself. He was a wise and humble being who was willing to give up all he had to please God and to rescue us unfortunates.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2007,19:42) Being in the form of God does not mean sharing God's being.
Yes, it does atually. That's what the word “morphe” means.Hi Is 1.18,
Do you agree that the Word showed independant abilities to think and decide before he came in the flesh?
Did he have life in himself?
What defines a being?
Was he a being?Hi,
The KJV version of this verse is popular with those who would try to claim the Word was equal with God but rather chose not to hold onto it but no being has equality with God. Of course in saying so they are recognising the separate nature of the Word and agreeing he was with God and not God Himself anyway.
Despite the multiple versions of the trinity theory we see none who holds a different version ever attempts to correct any of the others because it seems unity against the scriptural view of God is more important than mere detail.Hi,
So the Word who was with God, was able to evalutae and decide for himself whether or not to try for equality with God, Who is the Father, or to humble himself and obey. So it is very plain that he was an independant being from God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,04:46) Hi,
So the Word who was with God, was able to evalutae and decide for himself whether or not to try for equality with God, Who is the Father, or to humble himself and obey. So it is very plain that he was an independant being from God.
NHHe didnt “try for equality”, he already was in the form of God.
Jesus emptied himself of his privileges as the only born Son of God.
Matthew 26:53, 54
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”As I'm typing this passage it also is an interesting thing to ponder that Jesus *could have* changed his mind and called out and redeemed those privileges that he laid down…..and the Father would have honored that decision. Hmmmmm….
Still pondering…..
How this relates to the Trinity is an interesting thing still…..
If Jesus is the second person of God – how could he have changed his mind?
How do Trinitarians interpret Matthew 26? That God could have called on God to help him out?Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2007,16:50) Jesus emptied himself of his privileges as the only born Son of God. Matthew 26:53, 54
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”As I'm typing this passage it also is an interesting thing to ponder that Jesus *could have* changed his mind and called out and redeemed those privileges that he laid down…..and the Father would have honored that decision. Hmmmmm….
Hi not3,
So you think Christ the man was born with privileges which he emptied himself of? Being wrapped in a swaddling cloth and laid in a cow's manger is a privilege? Is 53 does not describe a privileged life does it? When did he hand back such privileges and what exactly were they?
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