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Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2010,16:17) Quote I am trying to state that though God is King being a king does not make you God. Thats true in a modern sense, Kings do exist but doesnt make them God, even though some do believe that. ex: Pharaoh, emperers, divine royalty.
But here is the Thing, how is it that that God is the King of everything, yet not in your sense, becaues Jesus takes a portion of that. in Revelations it speaks of something about the tweilve aposltes govenering. idk if thats literal or not again idk. (im not taking the time to search for it) but thats not the same.
Anti-trins would claim that God never shares his glory, or anything. He is God. -I think i have seen someone argue this point.
A Trin would claim- that They are equal.
Quote Scripture clearly states that the Father is superior to Jesus and at no time does it state anything else. Thats not clear. there are other threads and responses that respond to this very question. And it does state other things.
please provide scriptures that state otherwise?
Quote When Jesus sits on the throne of David he will be a King of the state of Judah-Isreal, i.e. the thousand years. Even now he is a Hebrew King. This is a End-time topic that you mentioned, you really wouldnt know for sure, that its just the state of Judah-Israel or the whole world. If your going to make that point, than pls provide claims/verses.
Jesus states several time that we dont have to worry because he has “Overcome the world” which would make him king, and the author of our very salvation.
And after the Thousands years are up, what is Jesus position?
actually when the Thousands years do come, im sure there will be no point of debating anymore.
and in other places in the Bible Jesus presents that the Bride of Christ is the Church, that He is the head of the body, and that ephesians 5:25 that a husband should be unto his wife, just like Christ to his church.
out of your three statements, the first one really confuses me. I dont understand your logic behind that one.
thank you for taking the time to respond.
much love,
SimplyForgiven,
I agree that the thousand years are part of the End Times prophecies and about those I am sure of very little. I do know though that the throne of David was based in Jerusalem and that the one who rules from Jerusalem is the one that is said to sit on the throne of David. It is my understanding from reading prophecy from the Old Testament that the united kingdom of Judah and Israel will be reformed and that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem. It also seems that all the other kingdoms of the world will be subject to the united kingdom of Judah/Israel.
I also know that Jesus is not the current one sitting on throne of David but that honor rest in the current ruler of the state of Israel even though he is not technically a king.
I cannot explain my first statement any clearer than I have already so I will go on to other issues hoping that what I meant becomes more understandable to you in time.
I can only provide scripture that states that the Father is superior to Jesus as I know of none that explicitly states otherwise. Some may believe certain scriptures infer otherwise but I would have to do research to figure out which ones and why I disagree.
1 Corinthians 15:27(NIV) reads:
Quote For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
God being the superior is the one who put everything under the feet of Jesus.
John 5:19(NIV) reads:
Quote Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
God being the superior is the one Jesus emulates and not the other way around.
I do agree that Jesus is the head of the church but I view that as being the same thing as stating Jesus is the Lord of everything in heaven and on earth. It is those in The Church that acknowledge his ruling and thus make him the Lord of their lives.
Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2010,19:55) SimplyForgiven, I agree that the thousand years are part of the End Times prophecies and about those I am sure of very little. I do know though that the throne of David was based in Jerusalem and that the one who rules from Jerusalem is the one that is said to sit on the throne of David. It is my understanding from reading prophecy from the Old Testament that the united kingdom of Judah and Israel will be reformed and that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem. It also seems that all the other kingdoms of the world will be subject to the united kingdom of Judah/Israel.
I also know that Jesus is not the current one sitting on throne of David but that honor rest in the current ruler of the state of Israel even though he is not technically a king.
I cannot explain my first statement any clearer than I have already so I will go on to other issues hoping that what I meant becomes more understandable to you in time.
I can only provide scripture that states that the Father is superior to Jesus as I know of none that explicitly states otherwise. Some may believe certain scriptures infer otherwise but I would have to do research to figure out which ones and why I disagree.
1 Corinthians 15:27(NIV) reads:
Quote For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
God being the superior is the one who put everything under the feet of Jesus.
John 5:19(NIV) reads:
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
God being the superior is the one Jesus emulates and not the other way around.
I do agree that Jesus is the head of the church but I view that as being the same thing as stating Jesus is the Lord of everything in heaven and on earth. It is those in The Church that acknowledge his ruling and thus make him the Lord of their lives.
Kerwin,sorry im taking long, that John 10:30 thread is really taking up my time. And i am a bit…. ticked… with wasting my time to respond to certain posts that make no sense.
But you are a person that make sense enough, to hold a discussion.
The end times comment you make, I agree in some points. but im not going to extend anything else because really.. we dont know how exactly it works until it happens.
one question who is the current ruler that you mentioned that Jesus hasnt yet succeeded?
Second part about Superioir.
If we are going to go with scripture, we can only say what it says, and not what it doesnt say.
Interpretation is based on what is said, not what is not said.1 corinthians 15:27. you said, that he couldnt include God himself under that. Does this scripture literaly say that?
John 5:19- in this scripture, Jesus in alot of places in John, talks about his works are just like the fathers. In other words, If someone wants to Claim to be Dennison, they have to walk like me, talk like me, work like me, and be like me in everyway. than their claim would be valid. This is a psycholgical point of view.
Ruling or relationship?
again thank you for the time bro,
I do enjoy discussing with you,
if im being harsh in any way pls let me know.
Much love,
SimplyForgiven,
I am not on this board every day and even on those days I am on I sometimes have to consider a post before answering. I do not answer every post as sometimes I do not see the good of doing so and am averse to getting into vain discussions when God warns me to avoid them. In addition sometimes a response does not come to me for one reason or another. Last my time is limited so I try to address those issues I find more pressing.
In 1 Corinthians 15:27 literally states that God was not placed under Jesus when God placed everything under Jesus. The fact that God was the one doing the placing clearly indicated he had the authority to do so and Jesus did not until God placed everything under his feet. It is possible that you could interpret this scripture to mean that originally God was superior to Jesus and then made Jesus his equal when he placed everything under his feet. I do not do that and find it inconsistent the context surrounding verse 27. In verse 26 we find that it states that death has not yet been placed under Jesus’ feet as when that is done death will be destroyed and we know that has not happened yet as people still die. In verse 28 we are told that when death is finally placed under Jesus’ feet that Jesus will be subject to God.
I am not going to necessary agree that proper interpretation is based on only what is stated as implications are very important in communication. I assume you have some experience in how the background of the writer effects what they mean by the words they write on a page. Still, I believe that on the most important issues there are enough scriptures that repeat the same ideas that you can get an idea of what is not written by comparing them.
I would like to go more into Jesus’ words to the effect that when you see him working you see the father doing his good works through Jesus. I will some time though to do research on that subject.
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2010,15:57) SimplyForgiven,
I am not on this board every day and even on those days I am on I sometimes have to consider a post before answering. I do not answer every post as sometimes I do not see the good of doing so and am averse to getting into vain discussions when God warns me to avoid them. In addition sometimes a response does not come to me for one reason or another. Last my time is limited so I try to address those issues I find more pressing.
In 1 Corinthians 15:27 literally states that God was not placed under Jesus when God placed everything under Jesus. The fact that God was the one doing the placing clearly indicated he had the authority to do so and Jesus did not until God placed everything under his feet. It is possible that you could interpret this scripture to mean that originally God was superior to Jesus and then made Jesus his equal when he placed everything under his feet. I do not do that and find it inconsistent the context surrounding verse 27. In verse 26 we find that it states that death has not yet been placed under Jesus’ feet as when that is done death will be destroyed and we know that has not happened yet as people still die. In verse 28 we are told that when death is finally placed under Jesus’ feet that Jesus will be subject to God.I am not going to necessary agree that proper interpretation is based on only what is stated as implications are very important in communication. I assume you have some experience in how the background of the writer effects what they mean by the words they write on a page. Still, I believe that on the most important issues there are enough scriptures that repeat the same ideas that you can get an idea of what is not written by comparing them.
I would like to go more into Jesus’ words to the effect that when you see him working you see the father doing his good works through Jesus. I will some time though to do research on that subject.
Hi Kerwin,lol you make me feel guilty that i am here everyday, maybe i should take a break.
Hmm, I took your points in consideration, and i do not believe that its for chance that you mentioned this scripture, for i use the very next one, is my new favorite scripture lol.
Because the very last part touched me so much.
Let me start by stating some things that Jesus said.Quote John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Note the very next verse is John 10:30
John5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 17.Quote Basically in 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
the very last part mentions how “God may be all in all.”
The God of everything, “I am that I am”
Note also in this scripture it says that first everything is subdued to the Son, Yet other scriptures tell us that the Son only does what the Father does exactly, so than The Son gives what all is under him, and subject himself unto the same who put all under him, that he also put under himself.So that there is no seperation. the subjection is important that There is a unity of the very same God. God obeys his own rules, there for he is also subjected to his very morals and justice. Because its him. The reason God showed us the law, which made nothign perfect, but showed what was imperfect, so that he can show us what bothers him. in any relationship one has to risk pain, in such a sense that they have to open there hearts and show you where it hurts them, and after that comes the holy judgement. That the bringing of a better testament to save us. God showed us in a way that he can follow his own rules.
back to the point, what is presented in scripture that the Son subdued everything under him, than he in turn submitted what was under him to God, who put all things underhim Note: that he also put under himself. so that he may be ALL IN ALL.
In other words to be the very center of your life in everyway.
Not just as the Father, not Just as the Son, not Just as the Holy spirit, but in every possible way, the very center of your life.If you are going to argue what is not said in other words implication, than its also valid to say that the Son literaly subjected himself to God, but it doesnt say the Father.
So is it the unity of God? or to what God, but it says that God maybe all in all, yet the verses in before this one mention God and even the father in verseQuote 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Yet it mentions God seperate from the Father? so can we further implicate that the Father was not mentioned?Usually when referring to the Son in scripture is always followed by the Father. even in greetings. yet in verse 27 and 28 where it does mention son it does not mention father…. I rather not validate implications, but if you are, than mine is also valid.
That Jesus already subdued death by his ressurection, he already defeated death in a way that he offers eternal life, that literal death physicall has not been defeated yet- i do agree there.
The context paul tells a bit of both extremes for a point.
because there was alot of division within the church at that time, as there is today.Here are other scriptures to ponder about in relation to the issue over to whom is everything subjected too…
Quote
Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Talking about Jesus putting everything under his own feet.Quote Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him
Jesus as the High Preist Melchisdek a important study fyi. that everything is under his feetQuote Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
in the one throne that is mentioned speak of the lamb, that everything giving honor to the Lamb.Best way to interpret scripture is with others scripture and for what it literally is stated. Bc to continue in implication is dangerous, because we are men, and there is alot that is not stated, yet scripture gives referense to all.
To sepculate if the Devil participated when Moses was telling pharaoh to let his people go.
since the Devil is not omnipresent, we could not say yes or no because this particular scripture does not clarify. Yet scriptures say that he is prince of the air, and that ephesians 6:12 speaks of the rulers of darkness. Using these scripture to make a explanation is better than to sticking to one verse and making conclusions based what is not said. Romans 1:28 for they knew God yet glorfied him not, That Pharaohs great great great grand father probably knew God, and decided not to follow him. yet look at context they worshipe animals, like the egyptians did in that day and natural elements.
Using other scriptures to explain scripture is always the best way to go. using what is said, to explain what is not said else where.
SimplyForgiven,
Look at John 10 is a good idea. I believe that you realize that anyone that acts according to the Holy Spirit is doing the works of God because God is working through them. That though does not make them God but merely an instrument that God is using to do his good works. Never the less they are one with God because they are doing the works of God.
It is true that God did place the students/adherents of Jesus into his hands and that these students/adherents are at the same time in God’s hands. That does not mean that Jesus is God and more than the watchman in whose hands God has placed the safety of the town is God as that town safety is also in God’s hands, Psalms 127:1. Jesus unlike the watchman though will not choose to rebel against God and thus him doing the job God gave him to do is assured by his obedience to God even to dying on the cross, Philippians 2:8. So because of the obedience of Jesus to God they are in complete unity of the spirit. That same unity Christians are also commanded to share, Ephesians 4:1-6.
I do not need to speculate that the Devil or at least his ilk participated when the Pharaoh would not let the people of Mosses leave since it is a sure thing given the nature of the beast. Scripture does state that there is a God of this world and the best candidate I know for that position is Satan. Satan was the one who tempted Jesus and it is my conviction that he or his servants is always there to tempt us as well. My convictions are backed up by the command found in scripture to resist the devil and he shall run away. The pharaoh was tempted to do evil and he gave into that temptation.
A piece of Egyptian historic trivia is that the heretic king worshiped a monotheistic god of righteousness. If I understand the history correctly he ruled near the time of Joseph and the Hebrews may well have been linked to him and when he fell they too may have suffered.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2010,18:57) SimplyForgiven, Look at John 10 is a good idea. I believe that you realize that anyone that acts according to the Holy Spirit is doing the works of God because God is working through them. That though does not make them God but merely an instrument that God is using to do his good works. Never the less they are one with God because they are doing the works of God.
It is true that God did place the students/adherents of Jesus into his hands and that these students/adherents are at the same time in God’s hands. That does not mean that Jesus is God and more than the watchman in whose hands God has placed the safety of the town is God as that town safety is also in God’s hands, Psalms 127:1. Jesus unlike the watchman though will not choose to rebel against God and thus him doing the job God gave him to do is assured by his obedience to God even to dying on the cross, Philippians 2:8. So because of the obedience of Jesus to God they are in complete unity of the spirit. That same unity Christians are also commanded to share, Ephesians 4:1-6.
I do not need to speculate that the Devil or at least his ilk participated when the Pharaoh would not let the people of Mosses leave since it is a sure thing given the nature of the beast. Scripture does state that there is a God of this world and the best candidate I know for that position is Satan. Satan was the one who tempted Jesus and it is my conviction that he or his servants is always there to tempt us as well. My convictions are backed up by the command found in scripture to resist the devil and he shall run away. The pharaoh was tempted to do evil and he gave into that temptation.
A piece of Egyptian historic trivia is that the heretic king worshiped a monotheistic god of righteousness. If I understand the history correctly he ruled near the time of Joseph and the Hebrews may well have been linked to him and when he fell they too may have suffered.
Did you consider the last points of subjection that i made?
or anything else other than John 10?
that every creature will be subjected to him?Here is a better arguement against mine.
If i literaly interpret scripture correclty, it will be as if God spoke through a man, yet i am not God.
but Jesus in every way spoke, acted, and walked according to what God is, in other words, if someine is perfect in every sense, are they not God in the Flesh?
Is it possible for man to do such a thing?
If Jesus was not God, than he was exactly like enoch, yet enoch was not required to die a sinners death.
Was enoch perfect?did you study Melchidek in hebrews? the high preist who had not father or mother, nor orgin, yet was the very first priest, that abramham the patraich gave his tenth of the spoils, a tieth.
in other words Hebrews clarify that Jesus is this same High Preist.the Watchman is imperfect, Yet Jesus never sinned.
Jesus was the second Adam. he was not born like the watchman was born. He was full man, yet Full God.I would like for you to read this post i wrote on another thread. the reason why is i hope you can see some of the repsonses i made to others in this similiar questions.
Im starting to feel that im repeating myself.oh and the last part abuot pharaoh im droping it because it was just an example we obviously agree the devil had some part in it even though he wasnt mentioned but the bible says what needs to be said.
As for Jesus being God,
its a different situtation.Quote Hi All.
I took a great deal of my time, to study many of your comments. And i know its for JA, but i would also like to intervene if you dont mind. But i hope it adds to the thread.
I will start by responding to the most intresting points person by person so look for your name. And i will qoute most of what you said, but its alot, so i might trim it. “…” represents trimming.Just Asking you said:
Quote Gene, TT, WJ,
What is the meaning of the Word “Massah”? Is it not “To Test” –I second that. Agreed.
Quote ]James 1:13 is his gain from doing so ….- Nothing… True. I second that God does not tempt. but to add, he permisses it. He lets it happen.
Quote With what can anyone TEMPT God…. God requires pure free-willed [Free-Willed; …] worship.
I agree to part of it. But it depends on the definition of Tempt. Because the very thing that God wants his our souls. because he loves us that much. So to say Prove that you are God so that we may believe. is tempting in way. They almost go hand and hand. And it depends on the definition of the word Tempting. I got a definition stating that the word tempting means. 1.”The act of Tempting, or the state of being tempted. 2.That which tempts.”
It goes back to the massah point. If tempting today means the act or the state of being tempted to prove something, can also connect to the hebrew word Massah.Quote Who is it that was Tempted at Massah:… when you tempt someone you are OFFERING something that is not normally available to them, to make a gain by unnatural means.
The Gain would be our souls. our belief. If thats valid for you I dont know. thats just the way i see it. Because psychological. the people doubted God, gossipers, backbiters, haters, and didnt really believe. They wanted proof.
Its like someone walking up to me saying that they are Christian, the bible says that you shall know them for their fruits. but if i have any doubt, i would ask him to prove it to me, i have just tempted the guy to prove to me, that he is a Christian for my acceptance of him. which is wrong and i would never do that. Again, thats just a alternative view. what do you think?Quote 1.Jesus was “Tempted” by Satan…
2.Satan to adam: ADAM was TEMPTED to gain knowledge of Good and Evil – That is tempted….
Im going to answer this with a key observation that i learned about. because they were both tempted in the same way. Note: it was eve tempted first than adam. just to be safe.
My source is in spanish. so im translating this.
“First Adam: Genesis: A)Desire of Flesh-The Tree look good to eat. B)Desire of the eyes-Fruit looked good to his eyes/sight. C) Selfsih Glory of life- Consume to have be wise.
Second Adam, Christ (Lc. 4:1-13) A)Desire of Flesh-If you are the Son of God, command this stone to convert into flesh. B) Desire of the eyes-The devil took him into a high mountain where all the kingdoms were…and i will give you all of this and the glory of all of them. c) the Selfish glory of life- if you are the son of God
, jump down because it is written that your angels would be sent close to you and guard you…”
Note: that the biblical referense is translated from a breif mention from spanish to English. so it will not look exactly the same, but understand the gist of it.
The point is that they were both tempted the same way. James 1:13 explains the temptation. that starts with lust in our minds, that turns into the very action of sin.
To connect the analysis of Adam and Jesus and what temptation is leads to disobiedence and sin when falling into temptation. The Jews wanted to tempt God by making him prove himself yet they never believed. The devil tempt Jesus by also trying to make him prove himself. the Devil many times said “if you are the son of God” Do this.
Jesus responded, “it is written you shall not tempt the Lord Thy God” (Lc 4:12) This point that Jesus said this should be added to the Thread KJQuote Did not God himself say in Exodus 23:20: for My name is in Him. The angel of Jehovah. i have seen this mentioned many times. One he always talks for himself and not for God. Bc usually angels talk like, The lord you God said this and that, where The Angel of the Lord usually says I will make thee a great nation. and stuff like that. Is it Jesus…Well This individual angel talks as if He is God. I could not say that this angel is Jesus. but i could say that He puts himself equal to God in such a way he even gives commands. This is from what i see. This angel blesses and so on and so forth. I believe there is a refernse of Israel wrestiling to with an angel, and that he named the place, that he saw God and did not die.
What do you think about that?
Oh and the high Preist Melchidek in the OT i would believe he is Jesus. What do you think?Hi Marty You said,
But Ephesians 4 states:
Intresting …. The bible also says that Gods eyes are too pure to see sin. Habakkuk 1:13 “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil” Yet after metioning the oneness of three other things, How can the Father who is above all, can be through all and in all, if he is too pure to be around sin?Hi Gene,
You have burried yourself in such a sense.Quote Tempting GOD is Tempting the Christos (SPIRIT) of GOD no matter who (IT) is in.
Im just going to extend to the second part since KJ already started with the first. Christos is a greek term, there is only one messiah that the jewish believe. If your going to connect OT with NT with the NT term for messiah, you couldnt. Bc basically your arguement is that there is alot of lords, and christos, such as moses, who is not the messiah, also not elders, and neither were the angels. A specfic anoited one was for a perfect sinless being, otherwords a perfect man. The Second Adam, may i present you to Jesus Christ. The Christ, the Messiah, The King of the Jews.Hey Mike!!!
Yours and JA are one some of my favorite to read along with WJ, KJ, and David. I always look forward to ya's post. its clear to understand even though i may disagree.Quote You are wrong, Jack. The word LORD in any OT is put in place of YHWH, In my last post about “Adonai” I actually agreed with you at first until i saw it myself. I saw that there is a small differense in the hebrew accents that shows its Adonai rather than Jehovah. even thought its translated like that often, the correct term would be Adonai more than Jehovah. Literally hebrews can write Adonai seperate and distinctivly but there are cases where they write Jehovah and add accent marks to represent Adonai for emphasis. Idk if you disagree or not. Im actually looking at it right now. its clearly there.
I also disagree with the “Jehovah Jr.” aspect. I didnt think we were actualy going to get into this angel of the Lord Topic.
I think the problem how people view the Trinity, is because they take the literal role to distinctivly. For example: We ourselves take roles in life when the circumstance arises. I am a Son of my Father and Mother, and im also a Brother to my Sister, a Friend, mentor, to others, and in the future i will also be a Father when i have my first Child.
Luke 14:26
[Luke 14:33; Matt 10:37; Deut 33:9 ] “If anyone comes to me and [Luke 16:13 ] does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, [John 12:25; Acts 20:24; Rev 12:11] yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
(The extra verses came along with the online scripture.)
We all take roles in life. God wants to be our everything, The very center of our lives. In the OT he provides several names for God, as YHWh, Jehovah, Adonai, Jehovah-rafa,yishi and etc. Yet these are all roles of God. He is our everything, the God of everything. I forget where i found this scripture, but i will find it. ill mention it to you again bc i will use it in several posts.
Im skipping to your last repsonse bc i spent 4 hours studying this. and one hour looking for ONE VERSE I CANT FIND!!! its a verse anti-trins should use against Trins. but i dont remember where its at!! i though it was in revelations… oh well.. im to sleepy. anyways co-equal persons. or just different roles? would that make more sense, or more difficult? what do you think?Hey David:
Please look to the translation i made. I saw a major differense, i know that you are more studious that i am, because i think our two explanations disagree. or idk you tell me. And im looking for this verse for your other post as well. SOMEONE already mentioend it, i been spending hours searching for it. It says something like, the Son giving back the glory to the father, and he will be the God of all in all. I thuoght this was in revelations. but i cant seem to find it. im going crazy…its something like that. maybe im wrong.
Finally wow… im done.! IM FREE TO SLEEP!!!
Good night ya! =)SimplyForgiven,
You have written more that I can handle at one time and so I chose to answer some and leave other for a different time.
If you could tell me the name of the thread you speak of then I will consider taking the time to search through it for the post you mention otherwise I do not really have the time.
I also wish to point out that Jesus did not have all the attributes of God as he himself admitted that he was not all knowing. Gollamundi also brings up some interesting points in the Trinity 2 thread.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2010,19:59) SimplyForgiven, You have written more that I can handle at one time and so I chose to answer some and leave other for a different time.
If you could tell me the name of the thread you speak of then I will consider taking the time to search through it for the post you mention otherwise I do not really have the time.
I also wish to point out that Jesus did not have all the attributes of God as he himself admitted that he was not all knowing. Gollamundi also brings up some interesting points in the Trinity 2 thread.
lol im sorry,
My brain just spits out alot of info,
I can only assume that you know of what im talking or not… which i cant assume either or which.
The god of deuteronomy 6:4
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3226To argue that Jesus is all knowing, my simple response is can God limit his power? can he forget? can he change? is he already physical? what is spirit?
The angels who are celestial beings limited their power, to look like visitors or humans.
in this point, i will bring up Melchisdek yet again.
If anything study hebrews and let me know what you think because thats what im referring to mostly to yuor responses.I already reviewd it, im going to respond back to it tommrow, he doesnt consider context and the importance of the Son of God. If we go off to a extreme, and only stick to 50 scriptures and not all 51 than we stilll have chance to be wrong. yet in his analysis there is alot that he doesnt take account for. Than again, it depends in what you believe.
only what you believe will make sense, we only see what we believe.
thats why if we believe to For God to be right overall, than we can have a clearer view of things.I can understand as I have been there myself but it caused my a lot of difficulties. I have learned to control myself to some extent and let others carry the conversation. We are instructed to listen long and speak slowly as well as to be slow to anger. I find those commands hard to obey but allso to be beneficial.
I am not sure that angels do limit their powers to look like human beings. It is my belief that some types of angels by nature apear to be human beings while others have other natural, if to us weird, shapes. They are still not beings of this world in any case and we see them only when God declares we see them.
It is true that God can do anything but there is an implied restriction that the writers of scripture assume that we know. That restriction is God cannot be tempted much less do evil. This brings up the question which is if God chose to limit his knowledge would it be evil. I believe it would be as I believe it is necessary for God to be all knowing. I do not have support for that belief. I do want to know “why you believe God will find it to be a righteous action to limit his own knowledge?”
I am going to end here as one main topic of conversation is all I am willing to handle in current conversation with you as I do not wish to be overwhelmed.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2010,21:26) I can understand as I have been there myself but it caused my a lot of difficulties. I have learned to control myself to some extent and let others carry the conversation. We are instructed to listen long and speak slowly as well as to be slow to anger. I find those commands hard to obey but allso to be beneficial. I am not sure that angels do limit their powers to look like human beings. It is my belief that some types of angels by nature apear to be human beings while others have other natural, if to us weird, shapes. They are still not beings of this world in any case and we see them only when God declares we see them.
It is true that God can do anything but there is an implied restriction that the writers of scripture assume that we know. That restriction is God cannot be tempted much less do evil. This brings up the question which is if God chose to limit his knowledge would it be evil. I believe it would be as I believe it is necessary for God to be all knowing. I do not have support for that belief. I do want to know “why you believe God will find it to be a righteous action to limit his own knowledge?”
I am going to end here as one main topic of conversation is all I am willing to handle in current conversation with you as I do not wish to be overwhelmed.
Forgetting Sin, is limiting Knowledge.
As in to compeletly erase it from existance.
For him to limit himself to a bush, is a limitation chosen.
Why do i say that the bush that Moses saw was God and not an angel. the very next verses explain why. That first it was holy ground, second, Moses had fear to see him. he was afraid to die.
He limits himself from Evil.
He cannot lie, God limits himself away from deceit.
Again you mentioned restrictions. im trying to be as breif as possible, i do not want to overwhelm you.Good has many restriction yet does not. He cannot be tempted, but the people asked in massah that he needed to prove that he is God. Just like the Son was tempted also that he needed to prove he was the Son of God. Jesus responded, thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
To know everything is not always good. becuase to know everything means to know evil. Yet Gods eyes are to pure to see evil. He is too holy.
There is a power to Perfect limitation. can you forget willingly? try to forget something? forget how sky looks?
can you? You cannnot choose what to forget, but God can.
Thats Power.Dennison,
I am of the opinion that God does not actually forget that a person sinned but simply sees it as irrelevant after they have changed their ways. In fact I do not know if scripture actually states God's forgets our sins. It does state he will not remember them which appears to be the same thing as forgetting and given the vulgarities of human languages perhaps it is though not in the sense you seem to understand it to be.
If you look at the definition of forget in a dictionary you will find it means to intentionally disregard in addition to other meanings including the one you advanced. In addition one definition of remember is to keep in mind for consideration.
I do not believe Jesus was telling his students in Acts 1 that he was treating the date of his second coming as worthy of being disregarded.
About the issue of Moses and the burning bush we are explicitly told that Moses saw an angel within the flames of fire in the bush, Exodus 3:2, Acts 7:30 and Acts 7:35. It happens also to be a Jewish teaching though they seem to even go to the extent of naming the angel that appeared in the bush but that last verification is not necessary since Stephen explicitly states that God spoke through the angel in the burning bush in verse 35 of Acts 7.
As for Jesus words in response to Satan tempting him to jump from the building have you considered he was speaking about himself not testing God to anger by jumping from the building. Look at the first temptation and you will see that Jesus’ answer in it as well as to Satan's second temptation referred to Jesus obedience to God and not to rebuking Satan refuting the scripture he used to tempt Jesus.
Your follow student,
Kerwin
Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2010,22:12)
I will answer you with Scripture than. Look at these scripture and tell me what it means to you. You obviousily already know my position.Hebrews 10:17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no morePsalm 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.
Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Isaiah 64:9
Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.Isaiah 43:18
Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.Hosea 7:2
And they consider not in their hearts that I remember all their wickedness: now their own doings have beset them about; they are before my face.Hosea 8:13
They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.Jeremiah 44:21
The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?Jeremiah 14:10
Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.I looked Remberance in hebrew, what i see that is used as a root word since they kindof mixed the words togethor, is Zicher which means certain, and zikaron which means remberance.
i Isaiah i saw zicher was used more frequently as a root.
English words change to much Ex: Let Hitherto- means to hinder, Gay- happy, Cool- not hot, Replenish- to fill, not fill again until 1892.Much love,
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