- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Nick said:
Quote But those truths were not new but revealed by this anointed man at the appropriate time. Greetings Nick,
Paul said that his gospel was “kept secret”. This means that when it was revealed it was NEW. Your statement that it was revealed at the “appropriate time” also means that Paul's gospel was NEW.You're still resisting God's revelation Nick.
thinker
Hi TT
Really?
It look as though it was rather the mystery was the secret.Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Hi TT,
Paul further explained this mystery in Eph31For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
It is a mystery OF the gospel
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,Colossians 1:25-27
25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Nick said:
Quote It look as though it was rather the mystery was the secret. Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Nick,
In your quote above I have put in bold that part Paul's statement you don't like. Paul said that it was a mystery that was “kept secret”. Paul's gospel is the everlasting gospel for all mankind. Jesus' gospel was for Israel alone and has been replaced by Paul's gospel.blessings,
thinkerHi TT,
Try again
” Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,
and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery,
which was kept secret since the world began,”So what is the direct connection you see between GOSPEL and SECRET?
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 27 2009,14:26) Romans 16:25-26: “Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but NOW is being manifested… (Paul said that it was his own gospel, “MY” gospel in the sense that it was revealed to no other man. So Paul is the origin of the Gospel he preached via direct revelation from Christ)). Eph. 3:3-5: “How that by revelation He made known to me the mystery…by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in ages past was not made known to the sons of men, as it NOW has been revealed…that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs” (This is very clear. Paul said that his knowledge was the “mystery of Christ”. This means that Christ had not taught it while here on earth. If Christ had taught it then it was not a “mystery” that was “now being revealed”. Christ revealed the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike to Paul).
And what was the “mystery”? Some new gospel? I think not!
For Paul revealed the mystery as he understood it”Quote EPH 3:2-6 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Mystery solved!! Thank you Paul. Thank you Jesus!
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote And what was the “mystery”? Some new gospel? I think not! Paul said,
Quote But NOW the righteousness of God APART from the law is being revealed…through faith in Jesus Christ. When did Jesus teach salvation “apart” from the law? Jesus required that men obey the law in order to be saved.
And when did Peter teach salvation apart from the law? He said that a man must be baptized to receive the remission of his sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
But Paul taught no such thing. Paul taught that salvation was APART from the law and APART from works. Therefore, Paul's gospel was indeed new.
thinker
Hi TT,
You say
” Jesus required that men obey the law in order to be saved.”Where did Jesus say this? Rather Jesus said this
Lk16
16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 31 2009,14:27) When did Jesus teach salvation “apart” from the law? Jesus required that men obey the law in order to be saved. And when did Peter teach salvation apart from the law? He said that a man must be baptized to receive the remission of his sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
But Paul taught no such thing. Paul taught that salvation was APART from the law and APART from works. Therefore, Paul's gospel was indeed new.
Your doctrine demands that Jesus be labeled a teacher of the law.The people that heard Him directly would disagree with you and seperate Him as teaching differently than a law teacher.
Quote MT 7:2829 NIV When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. Law teachers accused Jesus of violated the law not being a keeper of it.
Quote MT 15:1-2 NIV Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus said teachers of the law shut the door to the kingdom of heaven.
Quote MT 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Jesus opened the door!
The teachers of the law sought to kill the one you say
taught the law for salvation.Quote MK 8:31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again Jesus said, watch out for the teachers of the law, You say Hew was a teacher of the law.
Quote MK 12:38 As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, 39 and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. Look at Jesus in action against those that hold one to law keeping for forgiveness of sin –
Quote The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” (Jn.8:3-7 NIV) Look at what Jesus required to say her sins were forgiven –
Quote Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” (Mt.9:2 NIV) Quote LK 7:48 NIV Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” I could go on and on but your history here leads me to believe you do not seek to look impartially at the facts of the word.
Fact – Jesus preached salvation apart from works of law by the life He live – throughout His ministry.Because you have a less than Biblical view of separation of law from Gospel you will not accept that Jesus declaration
and Peter's follow through are salvation apart from law.Quote Mt.2:18-20 NIV Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” AC 2:38 39 NIV Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Note the application presented as a promise extending to The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
You talk of Paul's “new” gospel. Right after Paul received what you call a new gospel, look at his response –
Quote Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized I can hear it now! Thinker is there and says to Paul “I object”
didn't you hear the new gospel, Paul? You don't need to be baptized. That's a “work.”I'm glad Paul's understaning was much clearer.
You have refused to respond to inquiries regarding the book of Acts. Facts are that most all, if not all, converts would have been responding to Paul's teaching or the teaching of those he taught. Funny, again and again we find them being
baptised – then there was this “NEW” gospel Paul received and his response as he related it –Quote AC 22:14 “Then he said: `The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptiz
ed and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'I will not continue to answer these same questions you pose again and again as several have answered the numerous times.
Blessing in your walk
Seeking
Paul in the Letter to the Ephesians wrote
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it
is a free gift of God.verse 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. That does not mean that we should not work out our salvation to become more like Christ. But without God's Holy Spirit which we received at Baptism we can do nothing.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 01 2009,11:07) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 31 2009,14:27) When did Jesus teach salvation “apart” from the law? Jesus required that men obey the law in order to be saved. And when did Peter teach salvation apart from the law? He said that a man must be baptized to receive the remission of his sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
But Paul taught no such thing. Paul taught that salvation was APART from the law and APART from works. Therefore, Paul's gospel was indeed new.
Your doctrine demands that Jesus be labeled a teacher of the law.The people that heard Him directly would disagree with you and seperate Him as teaching differently than a law teacher.
Quote MT 7:2829 NIV When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. Law teachers accused Jesus of violated the law not being a keeper of it.
Quote MT 15:1-2 NIV Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus said teachers of the law shut the door to the kingdom of heaven.
Quote MT 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Jesus opened the door!
The teachers of the law sought to kill the one you say
taught the law for salvation.Quote MK 8:31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again Jesus said, watch out for the teachers of the law, You say Hew was a teacher of the law.
Quote MK 12:38 As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, 39 and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. Look at Jesus in action against those that hold one to law keeping for forgiveness of sin –
Quote The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” (Jn.8:3-7 NIV) Look at what Jesus required to say her sins were forgiven –
Quote Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” (Mt.9:2 NIV) Quote LK 7:48 NIV Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” I could go on and on but your history here leads me to believe you do not seek to look impartially at the facts of the word.
Fact – Jesus preached salvation apart from works of law by the life He live – throughout His ministry.Because you have a less than Biblical view of separation of law from Gospel you will not accept that Jesus declaration
and Peter's follow through are salvation apart from law.Quote Mt.2:18-20 NIV Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” AC 2:38 39 NIV Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Note the application presented as a promise extending to The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
You talk of Paul's “new” gospel. Right after Paul received what you call a new gospel, look at his response –
Quote Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized I can hear it now! Thinker is there and says to Paul “I object”
didn't you hear the new gospel, Paul? You don't need to be baptized. That's a “work.”I'm glad Paul's understaning was much clearer.
You have refused to respond to inquiries regarding the book of Acts. Facts are that most all, if not all, converts would have been responding to Paul's teaching or the teaching of those he taught. Funny, again and again we find them being
baptised – then there was this “NEW” gospel Paul received and his response as he related it –Quote AC 22:14 “Then he said: `The God of our fathers
has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'I will not continue to answer these same questions you pose again and again as several have answered the numerous times.
Blessing in your walk
Seeking
Seeking,
Your approach to the teachings of Jesus is like putting a jig saw puzzle together and making things fit that don't fit. The result is that the finished picture doesn't look anything like the picture on the cover on the box.Jesus said that “not one jot and tittle of the law shall pass til ALL be fulfilled”. In Matthew 18 Jesus taught that forgiveness was conditional upon men forgiving. But Paul said that men should forgive because they have already been forgiven. Jesus' method of forgiveness was pre-kingdom. In the Lord's prayer He said that they should pray that the kingdom would come and to ask for forgiveness AS they forgave. Again, Paul taught to forgive AS we have been forgiven ALREADY.
Pre-kingdom: Forgiveness of sin conditional upon men forgiving men.
Kingdom: Forgiveness of sin unconditional and men are to forgive men AS they have been forgiven already.
Jesus taught a pre-kingdom forgiveness that was conditional. That is clearly law. But Paul's method of unconditional forgiveness was indeed a new gospel. And Hebrews explicitly warned God's people to put away the “elementary principles” of Christ.
thinker
thinker we are no longer under the subjection of the law.
Ephesians 2: 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity that is the law of commandments, contained in
ordinances, so as to create in Himself on new man from the two, thus making peace.
verse 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God, in one body through the cross, therefore
putting to death the enmity.
verse 17 And He came and preached peace to you who are afar off and to those who were near.verse 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
verse 19 Now therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but citizens with the saints
and members of the household of God.verse 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself
being the chief cornerstone.verse 21 in whom the whole building being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
verse 22 in whom you also are being built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi TT,
You say
“Jesus said that “not one jot and tittle of the law shall pass til ALL be fulfilled”.True.
How unwise it would be to try to submit ourselves to it when it was never given to us.Rom3
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.Then you say
“In Matthew 18 Jesus taught that forgiveness was conditional upon men forgiving.”
Mt18
“33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
Scripture speaks of those who HAD received the pity of God and are BROTHERS.
No preconditions but consequences of not ministering the same forgiveness to brothers“But Paul said that men should forgive because they have already been forgiven.”
Same thing as above.
“Jesus' method of forgiveness was pre-kingdom. “
Not according to Jesus
John was before him.Lk16
” 16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.“In the Lord's prayer He said that they should pray that the kingdom would come and to ask for forgiveness AS they forgave. Again, Paul taught to forgive AS we have been forgiven ALREADY.”
See above.
This is how the children of the Kingdom WALK, not how they are saved.Nick said:
Quote Hi TT,
You say
“Jesus said that “not one jot and tittle of the law shall pass till ALL be fulfilled”.True.
How unwise it would be to try to submit ourselves to it when it was never given to us.Greetings Nick,
That part of your statement I put in bold is what I have been trying to say. We were not given the law. It was Israel the law was given to. But Paul gave the universal gospel to all men of all races.
Nick said:
Quote Lk16
” 16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Nick,
It is true that John and Jesus preached the kingdom. But they preached it was coming soon. And Jesus required that the letter of the law continue to be be observed until the kingdom had indeed come and the law had been fulfilled. Jesus was very clear about this:Quote Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till ALL is fulfilled, Matthew 5:17). Though Jesus preached the kingdom was coming He still required the keeping of the law according to every jot and tittle in the meantime. But when Paul came later with his gospel of grace they were moved over to the observance of the law [in spirit[/b].
thinker
Hi TT,
Lk 16
16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Jesus fulfilled the Law.
He taught about it to those who asked
But he invited men into the kingdom when he was alive.They pressed in as the Law was only till John
Nick said:
Quote Jesus fulfilled the Law.
He taught about it to those who asked
But he invited men into the kingdom when he was alive.They pressed in as the Law was only till John
If the law was fulfilled by the time of John as you say, then why did Jesus need to die for us?
You are misreading Luke 16.
thinker
Hi TT,
Did I say that?
Read what I said again please.Lk16
16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
NASB
16″The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.17″But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
Hi TT,
Jesus fulfilled every demand of The Law.
His death was a sacrifice for our sin.The gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of God and of the kingdom and of grace.
Grace and peace came through Jesus by the Spirit of grace.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2009,12:33) The gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of God and of the kingdom and of grace.
Jesus taught the “Gospel of the kingdom”.Paul evangelized the “Gospel of the grace of God”.
“Entering into the synagogue, he [Paul] spoke with boldness for three months, GIVING TALKS and using persuasion CONCERNING the KINGDOM OF GOD.” (acts 19:8)
“And now, look! I know that all of YOU among whom I went PREACHING THE KINGDOM will see my face no more.” (acts 20:25)
“And he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the kingdom of God and by using persuasion with them concerning Jesus from both the law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.” (28:23)
“PREACHING THE KINGDOM OF GOD to them and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with the greatest freeness of speech, without hindrance.” (28:31)
ETC,.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
