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bodhitharta said:
Quote You are completely wrong the scripture does not say Abraham disowned his son Ishmael, if that was so Ishmael would not have been there to bury Abraham along with Isaac. bd,
The story is told differently than what you say. Sarah told Abraham to cast out the the bondwoman and her son. It says that the matter was very displeasing to Abraham. Then God interjected and said,Quote Do not let this be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of the bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac shall your seed be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed. And so Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away
THERE IT IS! God commanded Abraham to listen to Sarah and disown the boy and his mother. Abraham rose up early in the morning and gave the boy to Hagar and SENT HER AWAY. After this God refers to Isaac as Abraham's ONLY son (22:2).
You are re-writing history.
bodhitharta said:
Quote It doesn't matter what the allegory represents because as you have admitted Hagar and her son were sent away free and under no bondage and was blessed directly by God. If you look at the middle east today you will see that God has more than kept his promise to Ishmael.
I have NOT admitted that Ishmael had covenantal promises that pertain to salvation. Show me where I said this. The Middle East today has nothing to do with scripture. In Christ all geneaologies ended because He was the ultimate and FINAL seed.thinker
Paladin said:
Quote Ishmael was in fact in covenant with God. When he was circumcised, it was becasue he was in covenant relation with Jehovah, God of Abraham. This covenant covered all males who were his seed, or males in his house.
Even in the Exodus from Egypt, PRIOR to the lawgiving of Moses, God established that servants were to be circumcised to be in covenant – “And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.” [Exo 12:43-45]
Ishmael was in circuncision covenant with God, but it was not the same law covenant that was passed down through Isaac, and Jacob.
Ishmael WAS in covenant relationship with God. He was later cast out of covenant relationship. His circumcision was therefore meaningless. Sarah said to Abraham, “Cast out the bondwoman and her son.” God interjected and said, “Do what Sarah says.” Abraham responded by giving the boy to Hagar and sending them both away. Abraham gave the boy away and sent both the boy and his mother away. He disowned Ishmael by God's own order. After this God treated Ishmael as if he never existed. God said, “Offer up Isaac your ONLY son.”
You guys are re-writing history.
thinker
Hi BD,
In what way does the strife and contention, murder and hatred in the middle east reflect good fruit and the blessing of God?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,12:24) Hi BD,
In what way does the strife and contention, murder and hatred in the middle east reflect good fruit and the blessing of God?
Nick,
Very good point!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,10:57) bodhitharta said: Quote You are completely wrong the scripture does not say Abraham disowned his son Ishmael, if that was so Ishmael would not have been there to bury Abraham along with Isaac. bd,
The story it told differently than what you say. Sarah told Abraham to cast out the the bondwoman and her son. It says that the matter was very displeasing to Abraham. Then God interjected and said,Quote Do not let this be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of the bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac shall your seed be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed. And so Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away
THERE IT IS! God commanded Abraham to listen to Sarah and disown the boy and his mother. Abraham rose up early in the morning and gave the boy to Hagar and SENT HER AWAY. After this God refers to Isaac as Abraham's ONLY son (22:2).
You are re-writing history.
bodhitharta said:
Quote It doesn't matter what the allegory represents because as you have admitted Hagar and her son were sent away free and under no bondage and was blessed directly by God. If you look at the middle east today you will see that God has more than kept his promise to Ishmael.
I have NOT admitted that Ishmael had covenantal promises that pertain to salvation. Show me where I said this. The Middle East today has nothing to do with scripture. In Christ all geneaologies ended because He was the ultimate and FINAL seed.thinker
Sending someone away is not disowning them. God sent Jesus away and Jesus even said according to scripture My GOD, My God why has thou forsaken me?According to you Jesus is God so why say My God, My God, Why has thou forsaken me?
Hagar thought she was being forsaken too until God told her otherwise.
Of course the middle east today has to do with scripture.
Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,11:05) Paladin said: Quote Ishmael was in fact in covenant with God. When he was circumcised, it was becasue he was in covenant relation with Jehovah, God of Abraham. This covenant covered all males who were his seed, or males in his house.
Even in the Exodus from Egypt, PRIOR to the lawgiving of Moses, God established that servants were to be circumcised to be in covenant – “And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.” [Exo 12:43-45]
Ishmael was in circuncision covenant with God, but it was not the same law covenant that was passed down through Isaac, and Jacob.
Ishmael WAS in covenant relationship with God. He was later cast out of covenant relationship. His circumcision was therefore meaningless. Sarah said to Abraham, “Cast out the bondwoman and her son.” God interjected and said, “Do what Sarah says.” Abraham responded by giving the boy to Hagar and sending them both away. Abraham gave the boy away and sent both the boy and his mother away. He disowned Ishmael by God's own order. After this God treated Ishmael as if he never existed. God said, “Offer up Isaac your ONLY son.”
You guys are re-writing history.
thinker
If what you say is true them why is it that Ishmael and Isaac buried their Father together.You are calling God a liar you should repent.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,12:24) Hi BD,
In what way does the strife and contention, murder and hatred in the middle east reflect good fruit and the blessing of God?
You need to be more specific because you have no idea what you are talking about.ALL of the land that was once the land of Israel is gone except the state of Israel which was stolen from the Palestinians and yet Islam and those who happen to be of Arab descent are in control of all lands that were of the promise so the fruit is obvious.
The dome of the Mount is where the temple used to be and yes only a remnant of Israel exists today. Christians are not very signifigant in the Holy regions and the headquarters of Christian order is in Rome with the Pope.
Hi BD,
Your view of good fruit is unusual.
The way is narrow and few choose it but good fruit is seen.[gal5]
The huge following of catholicism is also no evidence of the blessing of God and neither is the huge following of Islam.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,14:08) Hi BD,
Your view of good fruit is unusual.
The way is narrow and few choose it but good fruit is seen.[gal5]
The huge following of catholicism is also no evidence of the blessing of God and neither is the huge following of Islam.
You are deluded because the following of Catholocism is a fruit in which those followers do believe in Christ However there are more believers of Islam than the Catholic church because the Catholic church is diminishing and Islam is growing so Islam is more fruitfal than Catholocism and Catholicism is more fruitful than disbelief.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,14:45) Hi BD,
Your way and theirs are indeed similar and headed in the same direction.
Repent.
How are they similar?bodhitharta said:
Quote Sending someone away is not disowning them. God sent Jesus away and Jesus even said according to scripture My GOD, My God why has thou forsaken me? According to you Jesus is God so why say My God, My God, Why has thou forsaken me?
Hagar thought she was being forsaken too until God told her otherwise.
Of course the middle east today has to do with scripture.
bd,
Did you not read the context? I gave it for you. Sarah told Abraham to “cast out” the bondwoman and her son and God interjected and told Abraham to listen to Sarah. Abraham got up early the following morning and sent them away. Are you saying that Abraham disobeyed God? Then God told Abraham to offer up his ONLY son. This proves that God did not recognize Ishmael as a covenant child of Abraham after that. This means that He was NOT the God of Ishmael.You are in denial. Your Allah is NOT the God of the scriptures. The Middle East today has absolutely nothing to do with the scriptures.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,19:28) Hi TT,
MONOGENES does not mean ONLY.
Nick,
First, you're wrong about monogenes. Second, Genesis 22:2 says that Isaac was Abraham's “only” son. What has this to do with monogenes?thinker
Hi TT,
So You think Jesus, the MONOGENES Son of God is God's ONLY SON?Few will agree and scripture certainly does not[eg Jb38]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,19:34) Hi TT,
So You think Jesus, the MONOGENES Son of God is God's ONLY SON?Few will agree and scripture certainly does not[eg Jb38]
Yes. All other sons are adopted. Jesus is not adopted but the only begotten. It is you who are in the minority even here.thinker
Hi TT,
Even demons believe so hearing of him and knowing about him counts for little.
It is obedience such that he knows you that matters.
Not all who call him LORD LORD will be known.
Not even all who do miracles .Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,19:34) Hi TT,
So You think Jesus, the MONOGENES Son of God is God's ONLY SON?Few will agree and scripture certainly does not[eg Jb38]
The one who denies that Jesus is monogenes is condemned.Quote He that does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten (monogenes) Son of God (John 5:24) thinker
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