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Quote (michaels @ Aug. 17 2007,15:15) hi ken the truth seems to be ,just flowing out of you,but dont wory about what men think only what the father thinks,for if they are ofended in you when you speak truth,they are ofended in the father who is the TRUTH. may jesus lead you in all TRUTH. boldness to speak the truth is from the father,for even though men dont love you for the hard words they hear,the father loves you.
Thanks Mike! How wonderful are the children of God.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 17 2007,14:37) Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 17 2007,14:27) Quote Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.I believe James when speaking of works was not referring to following commandments, but of exhibiting the love that should characterize all true believers (the example he gives is one of helping meet a need, which is not required under the ten commandments, but is under Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.)
This is true but the word is FRUIT. The works of faith.So it is with love. How can one say I love you and not want to please you.
Therefore as scripture says:
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
Is that what this scripture is saying?
If you have faith then you have the works to go along with it.
If you have love (as the scripture says) then you keep His commandments.
In His Name And Love,
Ken
so… since you do not keep the commandments perfectly, I take it that you do not love the Lord….. for if people don't keep the Sabbath the way you think they should keep it, ergo, they do not love the Lord, then, since you are a sinner and do not always keep all the commandments, it also follows that you do not love the Lord…. or does that logic apply to everyone else, just not to you?blessings
Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 18 2007,14:01) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 17 2007,14:37) Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 17 2007,14:27) Quote Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.I believe James when speaking of works was not referring to following commandments, but of exhibiting the love that should characterize all true believers (the example he gives is one of helping meet a need, which is not required under the ten commandments, but is under Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.)
This is true but the word is FRUIT. The works of faith.So it is with love. How can one say I love you and not want to please you.
Therefore as scripture says:
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
Is that what this scripture is saying?
If you have faith then you have the works to go along with it.
If you have love (as the scripture says) then you keep His commandments.
In His Name And Love,
Ken
so… since you do not keep the commandments perfectly, I take it that you do not love the Lord….. for if people don't keep the Sabbath the way you think they should keep it, ergo, they do not love the Lord, then, since you are a sinner and do not always keep all the commandments, it also follows that you do not love the Lord…. or does that logic apply to everyone else, just not to you?blessings
If you read any of my posts you would see that i state to keep the Sabbath spiritually. I keep the Sabbath I don't obey the Sabbath that is by the letter.The Sabbath was made for man NOT man for the Sabbath. Does that mean that the Sabbath was done away with?
Now I'm going to use caps so you don't miss it ok.
HOW YOU KEEP THE SABBATH IS BETWEEN YOU AND THE FATHER. IT IS TO BE KEPT SPIRITUALLY.
Do you understand that?
Jesus made the law spiritual Mat. 5:27-28. The Sabbath day is the forth commandment.
Are we to keep the commandments?
Did Paul keep the Commandments?
The Sabbath like the other nine is kept spiritual. You have the Holy Spirit walk after the Spirit and keep the commandments of God.
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Here is the command.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
IHN&L,
Ken
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2007,07:06) I was searching for “God” and “Abraham” in the NT earlier and noted two passages I found that seems to be a sort of “debate” between Paul and James. What do you think? Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
Gal 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Gal 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”Now compare this to James, who used the same quote that Paul did in Gal 3:6
Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.As you can see, Paul heavily emphasized faith, but James spoke of works and faith.
hey there kejonn… here are some thoughts on the matter that may help you… this is just a small part of what I researched as I sought to solve this issue (James vs Paul on the matter of Justification) for there is a great deal of material out there on this subject….“Ever since Martin Luther, Christians have struggled with putting James 2:24 together with such statements of Paul’s as “we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law” (Rom 3:28). It appears at first glance that James is advocating a justification through works and Paul one through faith. This impression grows when we realize that each cites the example of Abraham to support his argument. Are these two authors opposed to one another? Must we choose between the two for our theology? Was Luther correct that James is an “epistle of straw” that contradicts Paul’s essential insight into the gospel?
The answer to all of these questions is no. A surface reading of James and Paul is apt to miss what both authors were saying. Therefore, we must examine each of the critical terms in the verse in James: faith, works and justified.
The first term James and Paul have in common is faith. In James 2:19, the author gives a clear definition of what he means by “faith alone”: “Do you believe that God is one?” This is not only the basic creed of Judaism (Deut 6:4) but also a truth about God that Jews believed Abraham discovered. It is orthodoxy, but in James it is an orthodoxy totally separated from obedience (“You have faith; I have deeds,” Jas 2:18), an orthodoxy that demons have as well. Elsewhere James gives a different definition of faith. The faith of James 1:6 and 2:1 is that of personal commitment, which includes trust and obedience; in contrast, the faith that James sees his opponents claiming in James 2:14–26 is orthodoxy without acton.
Paul also has a definition of faith, which he gives in Romans 10:9–10. Faith means a commitment to a living Lord Jesus and a confession that “Jesus is Lord.” This is similar to the relational trust type of faith that James refers to in chapter 1. In Galatians 5:6, Paul goes on to state that in Christ the issue is not one of Jewish rituals (circumcision), but of “faith working through love” (RSV). This faith-love pairing is not accidental, for it occurs repeatedly in Paul (see 1 Cor 13:13; 1 Thess 1:3; 3:6). Love, of course, is not a feeling or emotion, but loving action, that is, deeds or works. For Paul, then, faith is a commitment to Jesus as Lord that results in a life of love. If the love is lacking (as “the deeds to the flesh” or “unrighteousness” show), then such a person is no heir of God’s kingdom (1 Cor 6:9–10).
Since James (in Jas 2:14–26) and Paul are using different definitions of faith, it is not surprising that they use the example of Abraham differently. For Paul (in Rom 4 and Gal 3), the critical issue is that Abraham was declared righteous in Genesis 15:6, which comes chronologically before the institution of circumcision in Genesis 17. Since ritual law is the issue for Paul, as we will see below, the fact that Genesis 15 comes after significant acts of obedience by Abraham (such as leaving Haran to journey to Palestine) is no problem. For James, on the other hand, the critical issue is that the declaration of actual righteousness in Genesis 22:12 shows that the faith referred to in Genesis 15:6 is not mere orthodoxy but a trust leading to actual righteous deeds, so that “[his] faith worked together with his deed and the faith was completed by the deeds” (Jas 2:22). In other words, the two men come at the Abraham narrative from different directions, using different definitions of faith, and as a result argue for complementary rather than contradictory conclusions.
The second term James and Paul share is “works” or “deeds,” the Greek word ergon. In the verse cited above (seen against the wider context of Jas 2:14–26), James is clearly arguing for certain works. The two deeds he cites are (1) Abraham’s offering of Isaac and (2) Rahab’s hospitality to the spies. Within the epistle he mentions other acts of charity and the control of language. These fit well with Abraham’s act, for in Jewish eyes this offering was the culmination of a lifetime of obedience to God and charity toward others. The fact that Isaac was not sacrificed was seen as a declaration of Abraham’s righteousness.3 Furthermore, Rahab’s hospitality, like some of Abraham’s actions, was viewed as an act of charity. We are not surprised, then, to discover that charity is the issue that begins the argument leading to Jame
s 2:14–17. Thus the works James is arguing for are good deeds (charitable acts, generosity).
Paul is clearly against certain works as a means of becoming righteous, but the works he is against are “the works of the law,” a phrase also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but never used by James. The “of the law” is always present, at least in the near context, when Paul speaks negatively of works. What are these deeds? The principal one Paul mentions is circumcision, although he also speaks of the observance of (Jewish) holy days and (Jewish) dietary laws. In other words, while Paul never mentions charity and other good deeds in these negative contexts, he is against those cultic acts of the Mosaic law that set apart a Jew from a Gentile. This fits the context of the Pauline letters, for the issue he is facing is that some Jewish Christians are demanding that the Gentile believers become proselytes to Judaism to be saved. Paul denies there is any such need to become Jewish, although there is a need to become godly.4
There is, then, no real conflict between James and Paul on the issue of works. Just as his use of “faith” is different from James’s, so is Paul’s use of “works” different. Not only does Paul always use a phrase James never uses, but in places such as Galatians 5:19–21 he can list evil deeds (similar to James’s list in 3:14–16) and then say, “I warn you [now] as I did [earlier] that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Paul will not separate moral righteousness from eternal salvation.
Perhaps the most misunderstood of the three terms used in common by James and Paul is the Greek word group including dikaiosynē (“righteousness”), dikaiōsis (“justification”) and dikaioō (“declare righteous,” or “justify”). The usual meaning of these words in the Septuagint is actual righteousness or a declaration of such righteousness (for example, Rom 1:17; 2:13). James invariably uses these traditional meanings (he never uses dikaiōsis). Paul, on the other hand, often writes of God’s making a sinner righteous (justifying a sinner, Rom 3:24) or of a righteousness obtained by Christ’s being given to the sinner (Rom 5:17) or of the resulting state (justification, Rom 4:25; 5:18).
The Pauline meaning (of which James may well have been ignorant) has dominated Protestant thinking since the Reformation and has been read into James by many translations (as the KJV, RSV and NIV all do in Jas 2). This creates an artificial conflict between James and Paul. James, on the one hand, is asking how God knew Abraham was righteous when he made the statement in Genesis 22:12 and how the reader can know that the faith in Genesis 15:6 was a trust that actually made Abraham righteous. The answer is—from his deeds. And without such deeds any claim of righteousness or of faith is empty. Paul, on the other hand, is pointing out that both Jews and Gentiles are equally short of God’s standard of righteous judgment, and thus the issue is how God will make the unrighteous righteous. The answer is—not through cultic ritual but through commitment to (faith in) Jesus Christ. The two authors use their terms in different ways because they address different issues.
It is clear, then, that James and Paul are moving in two different worlds. In James’s world Jewish ritual is not an issue (perhaps because all of those in his church are Jews), but ethics is. His problems are with those who claim to be right with God on the basis of their orthodoxy although they are ignoring obedience issues, especially charity. Abraham and Rahab, in contrast to the demons, demonstrate that saving faith is seen in its deeds. Paul, on the other hand, is concerned about the relationship of Jews and Gentiles in the church. His concern is that commitment to Jesus as Lord is all that is necessary for salvation. A Gentile does not have to become a Jew to enter the kingdom; those ritual deeds that marked the Jew are unnecessary. In the places where Paul does address the issue of whether a person can enter the kingdom while living in sin, he emphatically denies this is possible, agreeing with James.
Paul himself realized that he was at times misunderstood. Some misinterpreted his denial that legal ritual was needed for salvation, making it into an argument that ethical issues were irrelevant to salvation (Rom 3:8; 6:1; 1 Cor 6:12). Paul strongly repudiated these people. It is unclear whether James was contending with an orthodoxy-without-deeds rooted in Judaism (such as rabbis would later attack) or a misunderstood Paulinism (such as Paul himself attacked). Both are possible backgrounds. It is clear that James is not attacking any actual belief of Paul’s, but that Paul could endorse everything James wrote, although given his differing use of vocabulary, Paul would not have said it the same way.
This verse, then, remains hard, but it is hard because its teaching is uncomfortable. God is concerned with our deeds, and they are related to whether or not we enter the kingdom. It is not hard because there is any conflict between this teaching and Paul’s. The two merely sound contradictory rather than are contradictory. In fact, a lot of the apparent contradiction is due to the misunderstanding of Paul found in Luther and perpetuated by those who fail to put Paul into his proper Jewish background.
If James is dealing with a misunderstood Paulinism, then, it is probable that the sermon in James 2:14–26 comes from a period before he met Paul, for it is likely that once they discussed the gospel together James would have cited Paul’s own words against anyone who claimed Paul as an authority for such a twisted doctrine as James is countering.
The James-Paul issue, then, is partially a misunderstanding of Paul (stemming from the fact that Luther was concerned with earning his salvation through penance and pious deeds rather than with Jewish ritual, thus a reading of Luther into Paul) and partially a problem of reading Paul into James. In reality, the writings of James and Paul demonstrate a relative harmony, combined with differing spheres of ministry and thus differing perspectives (which are apparent in Galatians and Acts).(Hard sayings of the Bible, Walt Kaiser)
hope this helps you as much as it helped me… also, I can provide you with some further information that I put together on this topic as I researched this issue (ie How does a person become Justified before a holy and just God?) myself, if you like….
blessings
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2007,07:06) I was searching for “God” and “Abraham” in the NT earlier and noted two passages I found that seems to be a sort of “debate” between Paul and James. What do you think? Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
Gal 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Gal 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”Now compare this to James, who used the same quote that Paul did in Gal 3:6
Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.As you can see, Paul heavily emphasized faith, but James spoke of works and faith.
Hi KJ,
Did Abram just believe God?No he responded with actions that proved his belief.
Works of the Law can be done by rote without belief.
What does belief mean scripturally but obedient belief.
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2007,07:06) I was searching for “God” and “Abraham” in the NT earlier and noted two passages I found that seems to be a sort of “debate” between Paul and James. What do you think? Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
Gal 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Gal 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”Now compare this to James, who used the same quote that Paul did in Gal 3:6
Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.As you can see, Paul heavily emphasized faith, but James spoke of works and faith.
Hi KJ,
How wonderful that God can use the same verse to teach two sides of the same coin.Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 17 2007,13:54) Ken,
I don't think you are pointing the finger at me. I too want to please God. There are so many things I took for granted in 20+ years. For some time lately I had been unhappy because I was missing something, and now that I have shed myself of the Trinity doctrine, I have really been desiring to see more ways to develop my love relationship with God.As I tried to get across earlier, I am not in disagreement with the Saturday Sabbath, but I did have a hard time with the way you seemed to be talking to people about it. It came across as haughty and legalistic. That is not Yahshua's intention IMO. He wants the Law of God to be a delight, not a burden. When we seek to show others the truth, we should strive to do so as Yahshua did — in the love that only comes from God.
So, IMO, the way to witness about certain truthes is to reveal the advantages of observance of these things, and how they have made your relationship with God come alive. When you instead make others out to be out of fellowship with God or that you are right and they are wrong, people put their back up. Yahshua only used this approach with the legalistic, accusing Jews. I do not think that most of those on here are like those Jews. They are just seeking to please God. If you can show them the value in doing something rather than the penaly for not doing so, it brings the teaching alive.
So again, I don't critique what has been revealed to you, but I do comment on the way you reveal these things to others. Seek to be like the Messiah, and you will truly be “Christ-like”. Let you passion be balanced with love.
Hi KJ,
You used to know Who God is
and wanted to please Him.
What changed?
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