Paul and James

[kejonn]

I was searching for “God” and “Abraham” in the NT earlier and noted two passages I found that seems to be a sort of “debate” between Paul and James. What do you think?

Gal 3:1  You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Gal 3:2  This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3  Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4  Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5  So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:6  Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Gal 3:7  Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8  The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
Gal 3:9  So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”
Gal 3:11  Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Gal 3:12  However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

Now compare this to James, who used the same quote that Paul did in Gal 3:6

Jas 2:14  What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15  If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16  and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17  Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18  But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
Jas 2:19  You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22  You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23  and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

As you can see, Paul heavily emphasized faith, but James spoke of works and faith.

[michaels]

who should we believe ? hmmmm believe GOD,let every man be a liar and GOD the truth,what did jesus say,hmmm,ask GOD not men,for GOD knows all things.

[seekingtruth]

Paul discussed Faith & Law, while James discussed Faith & works. I believe what Paul was emphasizing is that salvation is not a result of following the Law but is through faith, while James was emphasizing that genuine faith will always produce “works”. I see no disagreement just different discussions.

Wm

[kenrch]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 16 2007,17:05)

Paul discussed Faith & Law, while James discussed Faith & works. I believe what Paul was emphasizing is that salvation is not a result of following the Law but is through faith, while James was emphasizing that genuine faith will always produce “works”. I see no disagreement just different discussions. Wm

Yep! James said faith with no works is no faith. Paul served the law of God after being saved through faith. Rom. 7:25

This is why if you love the LORD then you keep His Commandments as Paul did. Rom. 3:31

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

In His Peace and Love,

Ken

[kejonn]

Hi all,

Perhaps not so much a “debate” then, but more of a clarification for those who may have been taking Paul's writings to an extreme. But then again, what does James mean by “works”?

[kenrch]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 17 2007,03:03)

Hi all, Perhaps not so much a “debate” then, but more of a clarification for those who may have been taking Paul's writings to an extreme. But then again, what does James mean by “works”?

Compare the two:

Faith without works is dead.

Love for God is dead not keeping His commandments.

Truth is truth if you follow the scriptures. Take Paul's writings to an extreme? Indeed you can't understand Paul's writings unless you put them under a magnifying glass.

In His Name And LOVE

Ken

[kejonn]

Ken,

I think that one has to recognize that Paul was writing to Gentiles who had very little understanding of the Law. So I wonder if he was speaking of the Law of Moses (sacrificial and ceremonial) or if he was trying to include all of the Law? That is why it is so great that we have all of the NT so we can bring it all together and balance.

[kenrch]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 17 2007,03:37)

Ken, I think that one has to recognize that Paul was writing to Gentiles who had very little understanding of the Law. So I wonder if he was speaking of the Law of Moses (sacrificial and ceremonial) or if he was trying to include all of the Law? That is why it is so great that we have all of the NT so we can bring it all together and balance.

There is a separation of the law of Moses and the law of God.

Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tablets, in the same writing as before, the Ten Commandments that the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me.
Deu 10:5 Then I turned and came down from the mountain and put the tablets in the ark that I had made. And there they are, as the LORD commanded me.”

The law that God wrote the Ten Commandments was placed inside the ark

Deu 31:9 Then Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.

Deu 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

The law that God gave to Moses to write was placed on the side of the ark.

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

Because of trangression of the Ten Commandment law of God the other laws were added.

1Co 7:19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

What matters is the keeping of God's commandments.

Act 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

The argument in Acts to the Gentiles was did the Gentiles have to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

No the Gentiles did not have to keep the law of moses according to the Spirit.

Paul explains:

1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.

Paul became a Jew but not under the law of the Jews.

1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Paul was NOT without the law of God (Ten Commandments) but under the law of Christ.

Then of course we have ALL the scriptures that say to keep the commandments of God.

The ordnances were nailed to the cross. Were these Ordnances laws that the Pharsisees wrote?

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Col 2:15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Keeping everything in context the Sabbath mentioned in verse 16 is speaking of ANNUAL Sabbaths. Some translations have as Sabbath days. Not the weekly Sabbath.

I do not believe that Gentiles have to keep the annual Sabbaths but it is nice anytime to gather with God's people and break bread.

IN HIS NAME AND LOVE,

Ken

[kejonn]

Ken,

So, in your opinion, do you think that is what James was speaking of when he mentioned “works”? That is, to be certain that the 10 Commandments were observed? I wonder why he was not more specific. Oh, and I'm fairly certain that “works” could also include carrying out what Yahshua taught as well.

I think then that James' teaching goes hand in hand with verses that speak of keeping commandments (both the 10 and those of Yahshua's[John 14-15 and places in 1 John]) showing our love to God and Son.

[kenrch]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 17 2007,06:34)

Ken, So, in your opinion, do you think that is what James was speaking of when he mentioned “works”? That is, to be certain that the 10 Commandments were observed? I wonder why he was not more specific. Oh, and I'm fairly certain that “works” could also include carrying out what Yahshua taught as well. I think then that James' teaching goes hand in hand with verses that speak of keeping commandments (both the 10 and those of Yahshua's[John 14-15 and places in 1 John]) showing our love to God and Son.

Well James is speaking of the fruit of faith. If someone is cold what good would it do to tell him may God make you warm. It is better to GIVE that person a coat. Is that how it goes? Or something like that.

The same principal is the FRUIT of the love for God and Son. If we love God we keep His commandments.

I don't want to keep harping on the Sabbath but that is the one commandment that most people break without knowing it because this is the commandment that the Harlot changed.

The seventh day Sabbath is a sign that Jehovah is our God it tells the world that He is creator. This is why Satan hates it and changed it! If one knowingly refuses to keep the Sabbath then one is breaking one of God's commandments. It's the same as breaking one of the other nine.

Am I pointing my finger at you? NO I'm pointing my finger at the forth commandment and saying LOOK. Look at the deception of the master of deception for he has deceived the whole world.

In His Name And Love,

Ken

[kejonn]

Ken,
I don't think you are pointing the finger at me. I too want to please God. There are so many things I took for granted in 20+ years. For some time lately I had been unhappy because I was missing something, and now that I have shed myself of the Trinity doctrine, I have really been desiring to see more ways to develop my love relationship with God.

As I tried to get across earlier, I am not in disagreement with the Saturday Sabbath, but I did have a hard time with the way you seemed to be talking to people about it. It came across as haughty and legalistic. That is not Yahshua's intention IMO. He wants the Law of God to be a delight, not a burden. When we seek to show others the truth, we should strive to do so as Yahshua did — in the love that only comes from God.

So, IMO, the way to witness about certain truthes is to reveal the advantages of observance of these things, and how they have made your relationship with God come alive. When you instead make others out to be out of fellowship with God or that you are right and they are wrong, people put their back up. Yahshua only used this approach with the legalistic, accusing Jews. I do not think that most of those on here are like those Jews. They are just seeking to please God. If you can show them the value in doing something rather than the penaly for not doing so, it brings the teaching alive.

So again, I don't critique what has been revealed to you, but I do comment on the way you reveal these things to others. Seek to be like the Messiah, and you will truly be “Christ-like”. Let you passion be balanced with love.

[kenrch]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 17 2007,13:54)

Ken, I don't think you are pointing the finger at me. I too want to please God. There are so many things I took for granted in 20+ years. For some time lately I had been unhappy because I was missing something, and now that I have shed myself of the Trinity doctrine, I have really been desiring to see more ways to develop my love relationship with God. As I tried to get across earlier, I am not in disagreement with the Saturday Sabbath, but I did have a hard time with the way you seemed to be talking to people about it. It came across as haughty and legalistic. That is not Yahshua's intention IMO. He wants the Law of God to be a delight, not a burden. When we seek to show others the truth, we should strive to do so as Yahshua did — in the love that only comes from God. So, IMO, the way to witness about certain truthes is to reveal the advantages of observance of these things, and how they have made your relationship with God come alive. When you instead make others out to be out of fellowship with God or that you are right and they are wrong, people put their back up. Yahshua only used this approach with the legalistic, accusing Jews. I do not think that most of those on here are like those Jews. They are just seeking to please God. If you can show them the value in doing something rather than the penaly for not doing so, it brings the teaching alive. So again, I don't critique what has been revealed to you, but I do comment on the way you reveal these things to others. Seek to be like the Messiah, and you will truly be “Christ-like”. Let you passion be balanced with love.

So what do you think of the message? Is the message correct?

No! I've never been a smooth talker or a sweet romancer. I've always “told it like it is” and have always paid the price for being honest. It's one thing to NOT understand but another to deny what is written. May be that's why I have the message to share if one wants to be romanced them they should go back to main stream Christianity where they are told what they WANT to hear

You speak of love, I speak of the fruit of that love.

What matters is the keeping of God's commandments 1 Cor. 7:19.

In His Name And Love,

Ken

[seekingtruth]

Quote

Jas 2:14  What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Jas 2:15  If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, Jas 2:16  and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Jas 2:17  Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

I believe James when speaking of works was not referring to following commandments, but of exhibiting the love that should characterize all true believers (the example he gives is one of helping meet a need, which is not required under the ten commandments, but is under Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.)

[kenrch]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 17 2007,14:27)

Quote Jas 2:14  What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Jas 2:15  If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, Jas 2:16  and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Jas 2:17  Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. I believe James when speaking of works was not referring to following commandments, but of exhibiting the love that should characterize all true believers (the example he gives is one of helping meet a need, which is not required under the ten commandments, but is under Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.)

This is true but the word is FRUIT. The works of faith.

So it is with love. How can one say I love you and not want to please you.

Therefore as scripture says:

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Is that what this scripture is saying?

If you have faith then you have the works to go along with it.

If you have love (as the scripture says) then you keep His commandments.

In His Name And Love,

Ken

[kejonn]

Ken,

Yes, I believe that the message is correct. I just think you do need to work on the method of delivery so you can be more like Yahshua. Study John 4 for more details.

I can understand your statement of not being a “smooth talker”. But is that a holdover from the “old man”? The “new man” must continue to be put on the wheel of the “potter” to be molded to be like Yahshua. Don't accept that you are who you are. Accept that you continue to be more like Yahshua.

[kenrch]

Quote

…one of helping meet a need, which is not required under the ten commandments

The last six commandments show how to love thy neighbor as thyself.

What does 1 John 5:3 speaking of ST?

[kenrch]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 17 2007,14:40)

Ken, Yes, I believe that the message is correct. I just think you do need to work on the method of delivery so you can be more like Yahshua. Study John 4 for more details. I can understand your statement of not being a “smooth talker”. But is that a holdover from the “old man”? The “new man” must continue to be put on the wheel of the “potter” to be molded to be like Yahshua. Don't accept that you are who you are. Accept that you continue to be more like Yahshua.

The message is correct but you sit in judgment of the messenger. Take the message and share the message not the messenger. I seek NO glory.

Jesus said what more love has one for you then to lay down his life. The message He gave me is NOT a popular one. So when given it is not received well. Did Jesus keep repeating His words to His disciples? But when the Pharisees kept questioning Him was He polite? Again if one does not understand the message I can understand but don't deny what the scripture is saying to you. The messenger can't save you. But the message will set you free. The one who looses his life will gain his life.

Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

The Sabbath kept in the Spirit is a delight not a burden.

In His Name And Love,

Ken

[kejonn]

Ken,

I can see you are a hard nut. That is OK, we are all unique. But the messenger is supposed to pass on the message, not make comments when the message is not accepted. So if you call yourself a messenger, pass on the message alone and not extra comments that turn people away.

For instance, if you believe the Sabbath is evening Friday to evening Saturday alone, list scripture that backs your supposition and do some simple explanation. If people do not accept your interpretation, do not go on to tell them that they are wrong while appearing yourself to be right. Do not tell them that they will bow at your feet some day. Do not tell them that they do not have fellowship with God while you do. In doing this, you bear false witness because you do not know how close these people feel they are to God. After all, each person's relationship is highly personal and not yours to judge.

[michaels]

hi ken the truth seems to be ,just flowing out of you,but dont wory about what men think only what the father thinks,for if they are ofended in you when you speak truth,they are ofended in the father who is the TRUTH. may jesus lead you in all TRUTH. boldness to speak the truth is from the father,for even though men dont love you for the hard words they hear,the father loves you.

[kenrch]

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 17 2007,15:11)

Ken, I can see you are a hard nut. That is OK, we are all unique. But the messenger is supposed to pass on the message, not make comments when the message is not accepted. So if you call yourself a messenger, pass on the message alone and not extra comments that turn people away. For instance, if you believe the Sabbath is evening Friday to evening Saturday alone, list scripture that backs your supposition and do some simple explanation. If people do not accept your interpretation, do not go on to tell them that they are wrong while appearing yourself to be right. Do not tell them that they will bow at your feet some day. Do not tell them that they do not have fellowship with God while you do. In doing this, you bear false witness because you do not know how close these people feel they are to God. After all, each person's relationship is highly personal and not yours to judge.

Kejonn I gave scripture and I explained scripture and ended up defending scripture.

I went back and re-read the thread and that's what I found. Mrs. was denying scripture. She gave scripture out of context and I explained to her and GAVE scripture again but she CONTINUED to refuse what the scripture said.

Example; what if I were to say… quote a scripture that said God loves you. And you said well how does God love me and I said by giving us His only Son to die for us. And you said well How do you know that, What day was Jesus born, ETC.

Well I gave you scripture Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

But it says that we have to keep God's Law. So on and so on and so on. This person just plainly refuses to believe John 3:16. Well ok then put it on the back burner until the Spirit gives you understanding. YOU don't have to put it on the back burner. But I gave you scripture? Isn't scripture enough for an “adult” Christian?

There have been many times when someone has given me what “seems” to be truth BUT things aren't always what they seem so I rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and If I don't get a witness then I put what they gave on the back burner AND explain that I don't know if they are right OR wrong. I'm not saying one way or another it just MAY be that I'm NOT ready for that truth. We all don't grow at the same rate.

This is what I explained to MRS but again she comes back with more rejection of the scripture. Sorry I have NO apology for one who simply refuses to accept scripture NOT because they don't understand but because they reject the scripture itself as being true.

I won't say it again.
Take the message and share it, walk a mile in my shoes.

In His Name And Love,

Ken

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