- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2012,18:02) journey42. Jesus preached to the dead. What is preaching. It could be preaching the gospel, or even proclaiming a message of victory to the spirits in prison.
In the days before he ascended to the Father, there were 2 places in Hades. One for the righteous and one for the wicked. Which group did he preach to or was it both groups. Knowing that would help determine the message that was preached or the message that was proclaimed.
It is also written that the graves of many righteous were opened so he could have preached to the righteous before unlocking their graves.
Hi T8I would say that yes, he would be proclaiming a message of victory. He would of been stating his authority, and serving them their judgement (to be carried out later)
1Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death In the flesh, but quickened by the spirit
1Peter 3:19 By which also lie went and preached to the spirits in prison
[1Peter 3:20 Which were sometime disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water.
2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement.
2Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Looks like these angels are associated with what happened before the flood. Mixing with strange flesh.
but now, after the flood, they did it again. Angels mixing with strange flesh, or encouraging men to?
2Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with overthrow, making an example unto those that after should live ungodly.an example to whom? men? or to angels that would repeat this horrendous act?
Those angels have blasphemed the holy spirit. Never to be forgiven.
I think that from reading your previous posts, you understand all this anyway.
but lets talk about your next statement. It would be good to discuss.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2012,18:02) journey42. Jesus preached to the dead. What is preaching. It could be preaching the gospel, or even proclaiming a message of victory to the spirits in prison.
In the days before he ascended to the Father, there were 2 places in Hades. One for the righteous and one for the wicked. Which group did he preach to or was it both groups. Knowing that would help determine the message that was preached or the message that was proclaimed.
It is also written that the graves of many righteous were opened so he could have preached to the righteous before unlocking their graves.
Hi T8This hades thing, where did you get it from? Was it because of the parable of Abraham and Lazarus?
Religions have built their doctrines on this parable.
I understand from the scriptures that the dead are dead. Sleeping. Not hanging out anywhere, not waiting, but dead. Once we are dead, that's it. Everything we have done goes to the grave with us. No more chances, it is done. finale. Everything we have done gets taken into consideration in the first or second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Pslam 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ecclesiastes 9:7 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
The spirit is the life of a man, God breathed the breath of life into us, (Gen 2:7) when we are born (we become a living soul) and he takes it back when it is time, (dead soul) but this soul is reserved because it belongs to God and no one else.
The dead soul be raised to be judged at a later time. It is his to do what he wants with it at the appointed time.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living, for all live unto him.
Let me know what you think of these verses first T8, because I would like to continue and discuss the parable next.
God bless
Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 03 2012,15:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2012,08:52) Hi J42,
You seem to have added to and taken away from scripture quite a bit here.
Added
“He then went up to the Father, and was back by the evening to meet with the apostles.”
Changed
“Those dead that he preached to were the fallen angels.” The audience is specified in 1 Peter 3.19-20
Hi NickI am still looking into it. I am comparing the versions in the 4 gospels.
When Jesus rose from the dead, he saw Mary. That was in the morning.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.
Then later, he met with the two men who were walking
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying All hail, And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
So can you understand where I am coming from yet? Don't touch me to Mary……then the others he met touched his feet, and that was at evening time, before he appeared to the apostles. He even went and ate dinner with these two and broke bread, then disappeared. These two raced off in that same hour to tell the apostles, and when they got there, Jesus appeared and they got frightened, thinking they had seen a ghost.
Luke 24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
So it is looking like Jesus ascended to his Father shortly after seeing Mary, and returned by evening time. Would this be too hard for him? All in a day's work?
And again
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.
I will let you soak that in for a while, before I give any more.
journey42,
I believe that this chapter speaks of Jesus' ascension to the Father for judgment shortly after Mary had spoken to Jesus and explains why He did not what Mary to touch Him, but by that evening He was allowing even encouraging it.Zechariah 3
1 The angel showed me Joshua the high priest, standing in front of the angel of the LORD and Satan was standing by Joshua’s right side. Satan was there to accuse Joshua of doing wrong.
2 Then the angel of the LORD said, “The LORD says that you are wrong, and he will continue to correct you! The LORD has chosen Jerusalem to be his special city. He saved that city—it was like a burning stick pulled from the fire.”
3 Joshua was wearing a dirty robe as he stood in front of the angel.
4 Then the angel said to the other angels standing near him, “Take those dirty clothes off Joshua.” Then the angel spoke to Joshua. He said, “Now, I have taken away your guilt, and I am giving you a new change of clothes.”
5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put the clean turban on him and also put clean clothes on him while the LORD’S angel stood there.
6 Then the LORD’S angel said this to Joshua:
7 This is what the LORD All-Powerful said: “Live the way I tell you, and do everything I say. And you will be in charge of my Temple. You will take care of its courtyard. You will be free to go anywhere in my Temple, just as these angels standing here.
8 Listen, Joshua, you who are the high priest, and listen, you fellow priests seated before him. You are all examples to show what will happen when I bring my special servant. He is called, the Branch.
9 Look, I put a special stone in front of Joshua. There are seven sides [a] on that stone. I will carve a special message on it. This will show that in one day, I will remove the guilt from this land.”
10 The LORD All-Powerful says, “At that time people will sit and talk with their friends and neighbors. They will invite each other to sit under the fig trees and grapevines.”My opinion – Wm
To all,
I see that some have brought up 1 Peter 3:18-22 which even translators seem to have trouble with. I see two separate ideas expressed in it which some are inadvertently mixing to come up with a false teaching.
Hebrews 9:27
New International Version (NIV)27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Luke 16
New International Version (NIV)26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
The souls in Sheol are subject to judgment and have no way to go from the Tartarus side to the Paradise side.
1 Peter 3
New International Version (NIV)18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
1 Peter 3
King James Version (KJV)18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.The translators of these two scriptures have different opinions on the proper punctuations. Punctuation can make a difference in the meaning. For example by addition of one period to the NIV’s translation we get the following.
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient.
long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Both the resulting paragraphs are true as you read the words of Psalms 107:10, Isaiah 42:7, Isaiah 61:1 which speaks of some of those redeemed
Psalm 107:10
New International Version (NIV)10 Some sat in darkness, in utter darkness,
prisoners suffering in iron chains,Isaiah 42:7
New International Version (NIV)7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.Isaiah 61:1
New International Version (NIV)The Year of the LORD’s Favor
1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[a]
Footnotes:
a.Isaiah 61:1 Hebrew; Septuagint the blindEight people were saved from the flood as they were Noah, his three sons, and their wives.
Hi J42
You say
“I gave you the scriptures as to why I came up with my conclusion.”Opinions based on a verse or two do not make truth.
Hi J42,
You need verses to WITNESS to each other.
If the same thing is repeated then you can establish truth.[2Cor 13.1]That is why there are four gospels. One would not be enough.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,04:15) Hi J42,
You need verses to WITNESS to each other.
If the same thing is repeated then you can establish truth.[2Cor 13.1]That is why there are four gospels. One would not be enough.
Ok thank you for your input Nick.Did you read the four gospels concerning this subject? What did you get out of it? I would like to hear your interpretation if you would kindly explain. Why do you think that it was impossible for Christ to ascend to his Father and return to us by evening time. Why could he not be touched by anyone in the morning, but allow them to touch him in the evening? What did the Lord do in-between those times?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,15:28) Hi J42,
We do not find truth by imagining what is possible.
Hi Nick.So what happened Nick? When did Jesus ascend to the Father? This is a pretty important question.
Straight away when he rose from the dead?
Later that day?
eight days later?
40 days later?
Which one is it?You see Nick, I have all these questions.
Would anyone else who knows the scriptures please have a go?
Hi j42,
Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.He spent 40 days with the disciples [acts 1. 1-3]
He then ascended to heaven[Lk24. 50, mk 16.19,]
Hi J42
Matt 28 read it and Luke 24 gives account of how Jesus went to the our Father first then returned and spent time with his disciples and several accounts Also as Nick quoted Acts and Luke. Again His was and is without limitations. Paul said it best ; ' seek ye to be spiritual rather than carnal.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2012,04:27) Hi j42,
Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.He spent 40 days with the disciples [acts 1. 1-3]
He then ascended to heaven[Lk24. 50, mk 16.19,]
Thank you Nick.Quote (thehappyman @ Mar. 06 2012,12:37) Hi J42
Matt 28 read it and Luke 24 gives account of how Jesus went to the our Father first then returned and spent time with his disciples and several accounts Also as Nick quoted Acts and Luke. Again His was and is without limitations. Paul said it best ; ' seek ye to be spiritual rather than carnal.
Thank-you Happyman. I'm glad you can see this.Quote (thehappyman @ Mar. 06 2012,12:37) Hi J42
Matt 28 read it and Luke 24 gives account of how Jesus went to the our Father first then returned and spent time with his disciples and several accounts Also as Nick quoted Acts and Luke. Again His was and is without limitations. Paul said it best ; ' seek ye to be spiritual rather than carnal.
Hi 94,
Where does it say Jesus returned to the Father before his resurrection?
He told Mary M he had not done so.He was following Jonah who died but was given life again.
1Peter 3.19 describes what his soul did during those 3 days
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2012,04:18) Quote (thehappyman @ Mar. 06 2012,12:37) Hi J42
Matt 28 read it and Luke 24 gives account of how Jesus went to the our Father first then returned and spent time with his disciples and several accounts Also as Nick quoted Acts and Luke. Again His was and is without limitations. Paul said it best ; ' seek ye to be spiritual rather than carnal.
Hi 94,
Where does it say Jesus returned to the Father before his resurrection?
He told Mary M he had not done so.He was following Jonah who died but was given life again.
1Peter 3.19 describes what his soul did during those 3 days
Hi NickOff course he told Mary he had not been to the Father yet, that is why he told her “do not touch me, for I have not ascended yet to the father, but go and tell the brethren that I will meet them in Galilee” – that was in the morning.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.
Jesus is telling Mary that he has risen from the dead (she is a witness) and he tells her that he has not ascended to the Father yet, that is why she cannot touch him (God is the first to touch/glorify him) Can you not see here that he also tells Mary to tell the brethren that he will ascend to his Father.
I cannot use the day when Thomas appeared as proof. As we know that Thomas touched him. By the time Thomas saw the Lord it was already 8 days later.
When Jesus met the apostles, the first time, there would of only been 10 there (for Judas dead, and Thomas absent) So his conversation with the 11 apostles telling them the below is at the end of the 40 days, just before pentecost; This is when he was taken up. Not his first ascension.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.
You don't even know what Jesus did during that time he went up to the Father. The same day he rose. Something major happened. It was phenomenal? The scriptures tell us Nick. I know what happened and so do others that have been searching. But we can't even get through first base, so why should I tell you?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2012,07:27) Hi j42,
Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.He spent 40 days with the disciples [acts 1. 1-3]
He then ascended to heaven[Lk24. 50, mk 16.19,]
He then ascended to heaven to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
I wonder about those who do not believe this. When they first read it, they must have thought that it was obvious as to what the meaning is. But over time and with bias, they slowly changed the meaning toward their own understanding and are now convinced of their own understanding rather than what the text actually says.
This is how many are deceived. They favor a view for whatever reason, then dismantle any scripture that contradicts them.
Hi T8,
Sometimes the obvious meaning is the human response where God is asking for listening at a deeper level.
Spiritual.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2012,01:37) Hi T8,
Sometimes the obvious meaning is the human response where God is asking for listening at a deeper level.
Spiritual.
Nsome times not believing the obvious does make you lose the deeper spiritual understanding of it all
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
