Paradise

[thehappyman]

Paul said in 1 Corth.12: 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

[kerwin]

Happyman,

1) It is the part of Sheol in which the righteous dead reside.
2) It is in the Third Heaven.
3) It is the Garden of Eden.

I believe the Garden of Eden was taken up into the Third Heaven but that Paradise of Sheol is a separate place.

[journey42]

Quote (thehappyman @ Feb. 14 2012,11:23)

Paul said in  1 Corth.12: 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hi Happyman

Correction: 2nd corinth 12:4, for anyone looking it up.
Paul said that he knew someone that was taken up to paradise. Whether in the body or outside the body he didn't know.

This has always been a mystery to me. Not much information given.

This man was obviously given a vision. Was he taken up to heaven, to see into the into the future? I wonder if the man he knew was John who wrote revelations?, and the same John who wrote the book after Luke? Then it would make sense. So much was revealed to John, even the false prophet who opens his mouth in blasphemy against God.

Just a thought.

[Proclaimer]

journey42.

When I was a younger man, I had the same vision. I was taken up to paradise and it was wonderful. No words can describe it. Beyond comprehension.

Read it here:
http://www.heaven.net.nz/visions/heaven-hell.htm

[shimmer]

Me too. I had something similar.

Every now and then when things are at their hardest, if you stop and remember it, it keeps you going. Just like sometimes when I pray I feel it (Gods love) and it makes me cry.

[Proclaimer]

True that. I wonder with the amount of opposition I have endured whether I would even be standing in faith if it were not for that.
Some people think you must be a great person to receive a vision like that, but Jesus said, “blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe”.
I always encourage people with those words who long for a vision or a sign, but don't get one, and yet believe.

So who is really greater. The one who has seen and believes or the one who has not seen and believes?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2012,19:16)

Happyman, 1) It is the part of Sheol in which the righteous dead reside. 2) It is in the Third Heaven. 3) It is the Garden of Eden. I believe the Garden of Eden was taken up into the Third Heaven but that Paradise of Sheol is a separate place.

Quote

I believe the Garden of Eden was taken up into the Third Heaven

I have never heard that before.
I guess if Heavenly Jerusalem can come to Earth, then it is possible.

[shimmer]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 29 2012,22:03)

True that. I wonder with the amount of opposition I have endured whether I would even be standing in faith if it were not for that. Some people think you must be a great person to receive a vision like that, but Jesus said, “blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe”. I always encourage people with those words who long for a vision or a sign, but don't get one, and yet believe. So who is really greater. The one who has seen and believes or the one who has not seen and believes?

That's true t8. But maybe it's because you have a JOB to do.

I know what mine is and it helps others, but its not yet.

[thehappyman]

Hi All ,
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God.; Hell or Sheol,” the place of disembodied spirits. The” “inhabitants of sheol are “the congregation of the dead” (Prov.” 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33
The dead “go down” to it.
In my studies of sheol and hell and that of Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New “Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The” fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke “16:24,

Jesus went up not down so paradise is up.

[journey42]

Quote (thehappyman @ Mar. 01 2012,17:42)

Hi All , Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God.; Hell or Sheol,” the place of disembodied spirits. The” “inhabitants of sheol are “the congregation of the dead” (Prov.” 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33 The dead “go down” to it. In my studies of sheol and hell and that of Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New “Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The” fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke “16:24, Jesus went up not down so paradise is up.

Hi Happyman

I understand what angle you are coming from now.

Yes, some religions teach that Jesus went and ministered to the dead when he died.

My understanding is that when Christ died, he really died, and didn't converse with anyone. He rose 3 days later, saw Mary and told her not to touch him because he hadn't yet been to the Father. He then went up to the Father, and was back by the evening to meet with the apostles.

Those dead that he preached to were the fallen angels. He did this after he rose and came back.

If we understand death, then we understand that there are no lost souls hanging about in hell. For in the grave your memory is forgotten, your love and hatred is forgotten, you don't have a share in doing anything under the sun and so forth. You can not feel or know anything because you are dead. Time stands still for the dead. They don't even know they are dead. But when they wake, it will be “today” for them, with no time lost. So when Christ said to that thief, today you will be with me in paradise, he did not lie, because when that thief wakes, it will be today for him, and he will be one of the remnant brought back into Israel.

And paradise will be on earth, in the kingdom which rules from Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

This will be paradise. In the kingdom, on earth.

[NickHassan]

Hi J42,
You seem to have added to and taken away from scripture quite a bit here.
Added
“He then went up to the Father, and was back by the evening to meet with the apostles.”
Changed
“Those dead that he preached to were the fallen angels.” The audience is specified in 1 Peter 3.19-20

[journey42]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 29 2012,19:46)

journey42. When I was a younger man, I had the same vision. I was taken up to paradise and it was wonderful. No words can describe it. Beyond comprehension. Read it here: http://www.heaven.net.nz/visions/heaven-hell.htm

Hi T8

Thanks for sharing that.

I can't say I've ever experienced a vision or a dream like this, only that I was moving at very high speeds without my feet touching the ground.

[NickHassan]

Hi J 42,
Certainly spirits can be angels.
But 1 Peter 3 is one of those times I think when spirit means soul.
Angels do not get a second chance unlike mankind. Preaching to them cannot change their destiny.[heb 2.16]
But God is fair and His decision to destroy mankind by flood disadvantaged that generation since none had the Word to teach them so He gave them a chance.

[journey42]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2012,08:52)

Hi J42, You seem to have added to and taken away from scripture quite a bit here. Added “He then went up to the Father, and was back by the evening to meet with the apostles.” Changed “Those dead that he preached to were the fallen angels.” The audience is specified in 1 Peter 3.19-20

Hi Nick.

Regarding Jesus

Ok. I have always thought that, but delving into it again right now. I can see now I may of missed something VERY IMPORTANT that i didn't realise before. I will get back to you, and in the meantime, you check out the scriptures too so we are both well informed.

regards

[journey42]

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 02 2012,17:45)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2012,08:52) Hi J42, You seem to have added to and taken away from scripture quite a bit here. Added “He then went up to the Father, and was back by the evening to meet with the apostles.” Changed “Those dead that he preached to were the fallen angels.” The audience is specified in 1 Peter 3.19-20 Hi Nick. Regarding Jesus Ok.  I have always thought that, but delving into it again right now.  I can see now I may of missed something VERY IMPORTANT that i didn't realise before. I will get back to you, and in the meantime, you check out the scriptures too so we are both well informed. regards

Hi Nick

Sorry, I must clarify. The bit I am looking up is regarding what I said about Christ ascending and returning the same day. We'll talk about the 2nd issue after this one is sorted.

[Proclaimer]

journey42.

Jesus preached to the dead. What is preaching. It could be preaching the gospel, or even proclaiming a message of victory to the spirits in prison.

In the days before he ascended to the Father, there were 2 places in Hades. One for the righteous and one for the wicked. Which group did he preach to or was it both groups. Knowing that would help determine the message that was preached or the message that was proclaimed.

It is also written that the graves of many righteous were opened so he could have preached to the righteous before unlocking their graves.

[thehappyman]

Hi Journey 42,
        Rev 21, 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Luke 16 :
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

I hope these scriptures help you. Death , hell , and the grave shall be destroyed .

 

[journey42]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2012,08:52)

Hi J42, You seem to have added to and taken away from scripture quite a bit here. Added “He then went up to the Father, and was back by the evening to meet with the apostles.” Changed “Those dead that he preached to were the fallen angels.” The audience is specified in 1 Peter 3.19-20

Hi Nick

I am still looking into it.  I am comparing the versions in the 4 gospels.

When Jesus rose from the dead, he saw Mary.  That was in the morning.

John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

Then later, he met with the two men who were walking

Mat 28:9   And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying All hail, And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

So can you understand where I am coming from yet?  Don't touch me to Mary……then the others he met touched his feet, and that was at evening time, before he appeared to the apostles. He even went and ate dinner with these two and broke bread, then disappeared. These two raced off in that same hour to tell the apostles, and when they got there, Jesus appeared and they got frightened, thinking they had seen a ghost.

Luke 24:29   But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.  And he went in to tarry with them.

So it is looking like Jesus ascended to his Father shortly after seeing Mary, and returned by evening time.  Would this be too hard for him?  All in a day's work?

And again

John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

I will let you soak that in for a while, before I give any more.

[NickHassan]

Hi J 42,
Weak inference it seems.

It is one thing for him to discourage touching and another for others to actually touch him first-he made no recorded protest.

It is possible that his old body was messy etc.

[journey42]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 04 2012,05:07)

Hi J 42, Weak inference it seems. It is one thing for him to discourage touching and another for others to actually touch him first-he made no recorded protest. It is possible that his old body was messy etc.

Hi Nick

Did you actually look into it? and do you have any scripture?

I spent two nights looking into this, because you made me doubt my conclusion, but that's ok because it only sharpens us.

You say I added to the scriptures.
I gave you the scriptures as to why I came up with my conclusion.
Do you think it not possible for Christ to ascend and return in one day? Does that seem impossible to you? What do we know of the spirit world? They move fast, is all I know.

Now if Christ said “Do not touch me for I have not been to the Father yet” then this indicates, that only the Father can touch him first, otherwise Christ would not have stated it for the record.

This word inference you use all the time is not backing your claim. I back my claims with scripture. Inference is to make an assumption on the information given. That my friend is how the bible works. Somethings are plain and straight forward, and others are mysteries. But only a mystery if you don't understand it. God wants us to search and use our logic as well. This is what he means by seek and ye shall find. This goes for every word he has left us with. He doesn't make it easy, only the hungry will feed.

Now you say was it possible his old body was messy? I say no. Because when we are raised from the dead, we are changed at that instant. We can never die, so that old body was gone. Christ changed his form didn't he when he appeared to the men walking. What does this tell us? Only spirit can change form, but in the flesh you cannot.

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