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EdJ,
(The following message isn’t directing this stuff at you as if you don’t know it or need to learn it. I’m strictly just sharing what I know and have experienced with this. You may know this stuff–I don’t know. I haven’t even read all of that post you posted about anger yet. I just saw that you said anger is “bad,” and immediately decided I’d respond before reading the rest of it. I’ll read the rest after I finish this post.)
Oh, I think you misunderstood me. I didn’t say anger was wrong. I just said it was dysfunctional. There’s no judgment with that term. There’s nothing wrong with anger. “Wrong” is a judgment, and if we judge ourselves, we’ll deny our own emotions and not feel them. We’ll try to get rid of them instead of loving them so they’ll integrate. We’ll suppress them so much that we’ll end up doing all kinds of different behaviors and we won’t realize why we’re doing them. We’ll want to be “the best” at something or “perfect” (perfectionism). We’ll want to show everyone how “together” or “impressive” we are. We’ll do all kinds of stuff that suppresses the anger, all the while not realizing that’s why we’re doing it. So our anger, in a sense, is covertly driving us. And we might be the most pleasant, nice person in the world, too. But deep down, where we can’t feel it anymore, we have tons of anger. And that makes the heart hard, because it’s being neglected. It’s being treated like it’s evil (wrong). Shame will come in and shut the heart down even more. Really, what’s happening is we’re suppressing our ability to feel our emotions, so they seem as if they’re being “suppressed.” Our heart’s sitting there going, “I feel this and you can’t hear me! I need help!” In a way, the heart will work with God to orchestrate events that trigger that anger. When it’s triggered strong enough, we’ll become aware of it (feel it). The hope is that we’ll love it unconditionally so it will integrate. But if we don’t, we just end up suppressing it again with more behaviors, because we’re scared to feel it.
The heart is like a little kid. Imagine you’re a 3-year old and every time you get angry, your father spanks you for it. Very quickly, you get the idea that there’s something wrong with you, and anger is bad–so you’re bad (evil). You’ll resent your father for not loving you just as you are. But you might start acting differently and suppressing that anger so he’ll accept you, because you want him to accept you (to love you). So your life will become about acting certain ways to please everyone to get their acceptance. That way, they won’t “spank” you (get angry at you and make you feel shameful and angry the way your father made you feel). There’s no authenticity in that way of living. It’s like the living dead (which is kind of how the Bible puts it).
Now, imagine you get angry and your father doesn’t get upset with you at all. He goes in your room with you and sits there while you’re upset, even if you’re throwing a fit. He accepts you just the way you are. He doesn’t lecture you. He doesn’t spank you. He’s just with you in a loving way, even though you might be saying awful things to him because you’re angry. He lets your anger pass, and you calm down, and you feel better. You go sit in his lap and feel safe, knowing he’s not going to hurt you in any way or reject you.
Which father will you fear? Which father will you resent? Which father will you feel very loved by and very close to? Which father will model what it is to take out anger on someone else to control them? Which father will model how to love you so you know how to love yourself internally? Which father will make you feel like you’re free to live your authentic life and emotions so you feel freedom and joy? Which father will model and cause you to suppress your emotions so you’re inauthentic?
When our fathers judge their own anger as bad, they judge the anger in their kids (and others) as bad, too. Their anger has been passed down to their kids, so their children end up triggering the father’s anger. And the father tries to control his anger by controlling their anger. The father, deep down, figures that he stayed safe from his father by suppressing his anger. So he’ll spank his kids to get them to suppress their anger to “keep them safe.” He’s also, unknowingly, taking out his own anger on them. But that type of control of emotions isn’t going to keep them safe. It’s going to cause them to have a very dry, emotionless life. And I can tell you from experience, emotions make life so wonderful! I mean, wow…you can’t imagine who kind of depth emotions give life when you’re feeling them more fully. I want my kid to feel safe to feel his emotions fully so he can enjoy life to the fullest. That’s why Jesus says He wants us to have life and have it abundantly. He wants us to be emotionally free through authentic living. And that takes maturing our emotions through feeling them.
The things I shared in this post are from firsthand experience, both as a child and now as a father. It’s amazing what happens when that anger integrates. Addictive behaviors and all kinds of stuff go away, because the anger or shame that drove those impulses is no longer present. You feel so much more free. Jesus said that when He sets us free, we’ll be free indeed. Sure, I felt extremely free when He saved me (dropped my shame). But no one knew to teach me how to work through the emotions so that I could retain that free feeling and become even more free. Jesus saving us is a beginning to the process of maturing our heart–it’s not the end. We are responsible for the quality of our experience in this life. Freedom and responsibility go hand-in-hand. You can’t have one without the other.
Hi,
So personal experiences, anecdotal events and psychobabble are greater than the message of Jesus Christ from God?EdJ –
Hi Brian,
I agree with a lot of what you say, but not this.
“Never say always and never” – Ed J
And you can quote me on it.
Yeah, that’s a fair statement. I almost typed it, “99% of the time, control comes from fear.” Good catch. 🙂
– Brian
Lightenup
So, I am interested to know if you can, as Thomas did, say to Jesus, “My Lord and My God.”
Oh, of course. Jesus is Lord. He’s the Son of God. I may not be able to define the exact details of what He is, but as far as I can tell, He’s part of God and He’s King/Lord.
It would take an awful lot of proof to convince me that He’s not part of God. But so that I can keep an open mind and humble heart, I have to always know, deep down, that I might be wrong. That way, if someone does show me solid proof, I can accept it. I doubt anyone will, but you’d be surprised how much differently the Bible can read when you learn just a few incredibly important things about translation and the original cultures who wrote the different books of the Bible. It’s amazing how much that helps show our misconceptions about what’s being said in the Bible and clears up doctrinal flaws.
Hi,
Those who heard and saw Jesus Christ also heard and saw God in Him.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself
The Father in him did the works.
My Lord AND my GodT8,
Far be it from me to put God in a box. I don’t know for sure how the whole Jesus & God thing works. I can see how Jesus could be part of God, and I can see how He might be a created person. I could also see how He might be a manifestation of God (still part of Him). I can see how He might have been calling God His Father, because He wasn’t the whole of God in His human form, but rather, had been birthed as part of God and was a human. I can also see how Jesus could be the personality of God placed into a human body, come to show us what functionality (unconditional love) is. I can spin it so many different ways and when I read the verses, they’d support that. I’ve been amazed at how wide-open verses can be strictly because a person takes an objective approach to them without introducing their doctrine into the picture. Doctrine and our worldview completely filter how we understand each verse of the Bible. To believe God made everything out of Himself means I’m part of God, but I’m not actually God and don’t have His power. And can God cut part of Himself off forever if He throws someone in hell? And when Jesus says He’s God’s Son or makes a statement that sounds like He’s professing to be God, does He really mean He’s God Himself, or does He mean He’s just a part of God like any other human, since God made everything (even us) out of Himself? Do you see how different worldviews can easily cause a different view of what we’re reading?
You can debate this all you like, but this thread has nothing to do with that subject. So, if you want to debate that, start a thread for it and talk to some people there who want to discuss that. I, personally, don’t care to debate it. It’s off topic in this thread. Thanks, though, for your comments. That’s great that you’re standing up for what you believe in. If I ignore your posts from here on out, please don’t take offense. I’m just trying to stay on topic. 🙂
EdJ,
Colter says that those who worship the Bible are
practicing book-fetish. Are you practicing book-fetish?LOL That’s awesome. I totally agree. When I hear people say that relationship comes from the Bible alone, a part of me cringes inside. That’s worshipping knowledge and a book and the doctrines one has built around it. That’s not healthy for anyone. I don’t read about my wife to get to know her. That’s actually creepy-stalker behavior. How funny! To think of some Christians as creepy stalkers of God who read all about Him, but never have a relationship with Him. lol I should stop before someone feels belittled. I’m really just entertaining myself with that thought. Hope no one takes offense. Anyway, I don’t read about my wife to relate to her. I interact with her directly through emotional interactions. Same with God–I have to interact with Him emotionally so I can truly experience Him instead of just reading and intellectually knowing about Him. Doesn’t matter how much I know or think I know about Him. That never helped me. It’s how much I actually experience Him. Experience is everything. There’s so much insight in the emotional experience with God (not to be confused with Charismatic emotional experiences).
Camillia,
Yes, so we learn through GOD how to not judge, how to be humble, how to love, and how to listen. We learn through our own mistakes, mainly, imo. It is good to hear that a book helped you see that, but God, through the Holy Spirit is our teacher, and we have no need for any others, though God may send a teacher…. so it pays to listen when that happens.
Some interpret the Holy Spirit like that. For me, I see how preconceived ideas we’re taught about the Holy Spirit could be causing us to misunderstand what He is. So, I stay very open-minded about what exactly the Holy Spirit is. The more I study translation, the more I see how much we “think” we know, but are likely very off-base on. If you ever study translation from a cutting edge teacher or from Jeff Benner’s videos, you’ll quickly see how little we know and how wrong we are about some big things we think we know about the Bible. The translations really make it hard for us.
I try to keep God simple. The Old Testament says “God’s Spirit” and “God is Spirit”. The New Testament says “Holy Spirit”. Thus, the Holy Spirit is likely just God’s Spirit–aka God. So I just say God instead of Holy Spirit or God’s spirit. God’s God and that’s good enough for me.
I believe God’s Spirit (that’d be the Holy Spirit) is interwoven with everyone’s spirit. If we connect with our authentic child-of-God spirit, we automatically receive insight and leading from the Holy Spirit (God), because He’s intertwined with our spirit. I’m not sure that’s the best way to describe it, though. I wonder if we truly understand what that means. Do we understand what “leading” of the Holy Spirit is? I’ve read cases where someone thought they had the “Holy Spirit” in them only to find out it was a demon. The demon manifested when tested, then was cast out. The person thought they were doing great until that spirit was tested and it turned out to be a demon.
I think we’re children of God, and therefore have His nature in our spirit-selves. I think we just have to reconnect with it. He’ll guide us into that and help us through it, one way or another. And He’ll do so in a way we can understand it, no matter where we are in the world or what we have or haven’t been taught. He’s an equal-opportunity God, in my opinion. Anything less would be unloving and conditional, because some people never hear about Jesus their entire lives. But if Jesus is God, and they seek God, then they’re unknowingly seeking Jesus.
I think, in a way, the leading of the Holy Spirit, is in our spirit’s natural makeup as children of God. It’s inherent. We already know all of this stuff in our spirit. But most of us are completely unaware of (kind of like being disconnected from) our spirit-bodies, because our dysfunctional emotions are blocking us from getting there. That’s why Paul says to work out our “salvation” with fear and trembling. Let your fear come up and your body will tremble sometimes. Mine sure did. But the fear processed and resolved and I’m no longer afraid of it, so it doesn’t control me anymore. The more I “work out my salvation” by dealing with my dysfunctional emotions lovingly, the more in touch with God and my true spirit I become. It’s very important not to do reactive behavior (sin) though, or the dysfunctional emotional signatures will usually stay stuck.
The Bible says that perfect love casts out fear, and if one fears, they’ve not yet been made perfect in love. We either operate out of fear or love. My intent is to integrate/resolve all of the fear, including the other emotions that spawn from it (anger, and grief) so that I can live out of my spirit’s true nature of love. Within that part of me, I have God’s nature, so that part of me directs me, which is like God directing me. He, and His ways, are interwoven with it. As Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” That’s what I strive for.
Hi Brian,
Thanks for your answer. Most who acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah have no problem calling Him their Lord. You didn’t say He was your God though, just your Lord. Thomas called Him both. To the church, He is the head and the Father is the head of Him. He calls His head, God.you said:
He’s part of God
What part? Since He is a Son, then He is an offspring part which would be like the one He is a part of-the same kind of being, eternal being. An offspring part is unique to any other parts in that it is a replicate of the whole. It really is an amazing design.
You don’t have to respond, Brian, but this is the second time I mentioned it hoping you would be more specific in what part of God He naturally would be as the only begotten Son. Thinking of the Son as a part but not the offspring part sorta avoids the truth of the matter wouldn’t you think? Just wondering if you, on purpose, did not add that He was both your Lord and your God as Thomas did.
Camillia,
I hear you that those in the East speak a different language. I have followed Eastern Christianity quite a bit. However, when I hear the word “vibrational”, that to me is Kundalini/Hinduism – and I have not heard that word in Eastern Christianity.
Oh, I wasn’t talking about Eastern Christianity. I’m talking about Eastern philosophy. In the East, they look at the spirit level as the vibrational. And when you research quantum physics, you find that everything is made up of energy that vibrates. All matter is made up of energy. Vibrating energy. If something’s vibrating at a different frequency than what we’re all vibrating at, it can pass right through us and we’re never the wiser. What’s really interesting is that subatomic particles (the smallest particles in the universe that make up everything) are conscious. Scientists will test experiment with them one way. Then the scientists will do the same experiment with them, but observe the particles this time. When the particles are observed, they choose to act differently. So they know they’re being watched, and they change their behavior as a result. It’s bizarre! Scientists have taken snapshots, in a sense, of a single particle being at 3,000 different places at once. But when they look at the particle, it picks a single place and goes there. These particles can do things that only God can do. And we’re made up of those particles. Pretty freaky, right? When I first researched quantum physics, I immediately thought, “Holy crap. Those particles are part of God–that’s why they’re conscious. [ie – God made the universe out of Himself] And if ‘God is spirit,’ like the Bible says, then that’s the spirit realm. And since those particles make up all matter, then the physical realm is made out of the spirit realm.” Suddenly, I realized why the people in the East call the spirit realm “the vibrational,” and why they call the Universe “God.” Some worship the creation and not the Creator, and that’s a religious thing. I get that. But I think those who really get it are worshiping God, not the creation.
The people in the East have amazing insight, because they have the old ways from Abraham’s time. They have that old philosophy. We lost that, because we’re from the Western powers who believed in Western philosophy [ie – saw the world and God differently than people in the East]. Our religions come from Western thinking, which is very self-centered and very intellectual. People in the East, like Abraham, are all about the heart, and they’re all about the whole (meaning, I’m part of the whole, so how can I help everyone else–what’s my part in the whole). They’re not nearly as self-centered. The religious people over there are self-centered, but the non-religious who understand God are far more selflessly minded. This even changes the way they process what they physically see. They see the whole of pictures, where as we Westerners see the singular items in a picture we like. The brain is actually designed to take in the whole, like they’re doing. We Americans do it backward, and it hinders our learning. That’s one reason our school systems are way behind the rest of the world, for the most part. And oddly enough, this is emotional, too. Research, and real world examples, shows that kids who are more emotionally healthy will naturally do better in school. Their dysfunctions aren’t causing them learning disabilities or peer pressure or other things they might otherwise worry about. Their self-centeredness literally messed up their ability to learn. I experienced this growing up. When God dropped my shame at age 16, I could learn so much easier, because I felt great. I wasn’t worried anymore what everyone else thought about me, for the most part.
My wife’s a brain doc (brain researcher and therapist). She grew up as a missionary kid in Taiwan (she’s caucasion), so she has both an East and West view of things. You wouldn’t believe how differently Easterners think. Abraham was Eastern philosophy. Abraham was Pantheistic. (Not in the sense that a rock is God and Abraham worshiped it. Pantheistic in the sense that God made everything out of Himself, so everything is part of God–part of the whole). That’s how Easterners, in research studies, see the world and their part in it. They look at the big picture–the whole. They look at how they can fit into the world and be a part of it. Westerners, on the other hand, tend to think the world is all about them. They see the little things. They wonder how the world can benefit them. I learned a lot of this stuff when I researched translation. Jeff Benner is an excellent resource to show the cutting edge of what the Israeli researchers are finding out about the ancient culture and how it influences translation. I highly recommend his YouTube videos. Great teaching material for free. We Americans are way way behind on translation. So just to be clear, Abraham worshiped God, not a rock. lol He just knew that the rock was made out of God.
Man, I better stop talking. People are going to tire of these log posts.
I need to stop posting for a while. I spend too much time doing it when I get started…
@Brian
Yes Brian it should stay on topic. However it is unclear what the topic actually is. Seeking God is in the title and as the topic steered in this direction with you engaging in it, I thought it prudent to let scripture speak on the subject. There seemed to be a lot of opinions flying around at that stage, so I like to let people see what scripture says.
Please stipulate what the topic is exactly and then we can all stick to it.
Gracias.
Lightenup,
I thought I did say Jesus was God. If I didn’t, then I must have accidentally edited the sentence/explanation.
I’d like to share something with you. By the 1980s, psychologists had done lots of research studies on brainwashing. What they found is that 99% of the time, if a person had anxiety or anger come up when someone else said something that sounded like it might oppose their beliefs or disprove their beliefs, it meant the person was brainwashed.
I need to define brainwashing, though. Brainwashing means that a person was told something and believed it. The opposite of brainwashing would be that the person came to their beliefs completely on their own. One might say that God showed them the truth internally, so it didn’t come from an outside source of influence. People who learn from God don’t have anxiety or anger when their beliefs are challenged. They don’t need people to believe what they believe. There’s no emotional reaction, because they’re sure of what they believe. And if someone truly has faith, why should they have fear or anxiety when someone else believes differently than they do?
So, a person will not have fear or anxiety come up if they’re certain that their insights/beliefs came from God. But the person who is anxious has clearly used beliefs to cover up some fear. And when the beliefs that cover that fear are tampered with, the anxiety comes, or the anger comes. (Anger is always on top of a fear, because anger is used to protect, usually–so technically, it all goes back to fear). That’s what religion does to people. Their fear is triggered, so they go to religion to learn things so they can believe things or do actions that will get rid of (suppress) their fear. Does that make sense?
I’ll explain tension real quick, too. Tension is a type of anxiety. It’s fear. And when tension is suppressed, we feel relief. If tension integrates, we feel joy, our heart literally feels like it’s burning in our chest (in a very good way) and we cry happy tears. I’m a writer. I create tension in my stories, and then I resolve the tension at the end of the stories. This gives the reader an emotional release called pleasure. It’s why we enjoy books and movies so much. So think of “tension” as “fear,” and think of “relief” or “pleasure” as the suppression of that fear. (The release of fear won’t apply in this particular case I’m going to bring up)
When I told you that I believed Jesus was God, you said you were so relieved. That means there was tension/fear that got suppressed. So, what I saw was that you had fear. You reaction to that fear was to get me to define my beliefs, because the fear seemed to be centered around what I believed and whether it was right or wrong in your eyes. The fear might have also extended to other’s beliefs here, as if you were afraid others might be duped by me if they believed what I believed. Either way, what that was was a fear regarding whether my beliefs lined up with yours. It threatened you in some way for whatever reason. And threats trigger fears. And when I told you I believed Jesus was God, you were so relieved, you said. So you suppressed your fear and got relief, because your beliefs were no longer threatened. The tension resolved, and you felt pleasure/relief.
Now, a person could believe the truth but it was still came from someone else instead of God telling them that internally. Psychologists say that these brainwashed people can go so far as to die for what they believe (and I’m not talking about the healthy martyrdom–I’m talking about terrorists). But that’s an extreme. So, what you believe may be correct, but your fear indicates that your beliefs are covering it, which means they were given to you. I’m familiar with this. I great up in church and accepted what I heard, too. It’s perfectly normal. Everyone gets brainwashed to some extent in different ways in life.
I used to get anxious when my beliefs were threatened. Sometimes I’d respond with trying to convince the person my belief was correct. Sometimes I might really try to get them to define what they believed (like what you did to me). I felt the tension in your questioning of me, even though you did a good job of being very kind and considerate with your questions. Don’t worry–I’m not offended in any way. I just wanted to point this out to you and empathize, because I used to do the same thing.
Sometimes I’d confidently state what I believed and it made me feel better. (most of the time, I’d reason with them, though, to teach for the purpose of feeling better). I felt better because I’d successfully calmed (suppressed) my fear–I just didn’t know it, because I couldn’t feel my fear. Eventually, my fear got really strong, and I could definitely feel it. But, either way, I kept an open mind and kept searching for God no matter how many of my beliefs got disproved or threatened.
During my time doing 12-Step (Recovery), I went through a lot of emotional pain. I started really connecting with God because of that. He gave me some great insights about His nature. When that happened, I became much more humble and open-minded. He was literally trying to make me more open-minded to show me how much my beliefs were hindering my ability to learn. I would sit with what He would show me for weeks before I’d research it. I wouldn’t try to find proof of it in the Bible, but verses would come up in my head sometimes that supported the belief. Eventually, after I knew what I believed and it made sense to me, I’d go look to see if scholars had figured out what God had shared with me. Sure enough, I found lots of scholars showing proof of what He’d shown me. Anytime someone would challenge my beliefs from that point on, I didn’t get anxious anymore. I knew God had showed them to me. I didn’t need to convince anyone of what I believed, either. It was really cool.
Before, though…if something I believed was disproved, I would feel anxious, and I’d set out on a mission, usually, to find the truth. I wouldn’t stop till I found what I believed to be the truth on that matter. Then, the anxiety would go away. Uncomfortable emotions are very valuable to go into. I highly recommend it. If you see yourself getting emotional release or anxiety because of something I or someone else believes, watch that feeling. Let it be there and don’t react to it with any behaviors. Just accept the emotion as it is, don’t judge it, and wait till it resolves. It may take LOTS of feeling it to resolve it. But when it resolves, you’ll have unblocked one of your dysfunctional emotions that keep you from a better connection with God. Again, I’d recommend the Presence Process to guide a person through this process. I agree with almost everything in that book. What very, very little I disagree with is just something I don’t worry about. It’s not important to me or the process. I kind of just say, “Maybe that’s accurate and maybe it’s not. But since it’s not important to the process, I’m not worried about it.” Someone else’s beliefs are not my concern. Michael Brown says the process is not about religion or beliefs. He doesn’t want anything to do with religion. He says the process opens the door to the spiritual, but it’s our choice to step through that if we want to. The book’s goal is just to help people resolve the emotional blocks to our authentic self. That’s it.
I found that much of what I believed growing up was true, and I found that some of it was a little off. Some things I found were flat-out incorrect that I believed. But after all of that, at least I’d gotten the insights from God rather than someone else telling me or through my research. So no more anger or fear came up. 🙂 It makes these forums so much nicer to chat on. But, for me, I need to get going. I’ve spent way too much time on this. I have writing and errands to do.
Thanks for the conversations. If this isn’t my last post, I’ll very shortly be ending my posting. Great to meet you and the others here.
T8,
You’re right. That’s the trap I always fall for–talking about anything people post. lol Gets me off topic easily.
The topic is about resolving emotional issues, how emotional issues function, how they drive our behaviors (sin), how they are dealt with, and how that gets us in touch with our child-of-God self.
But, I’m writing way too much and spending way too much time doing this, so I need to get going. If I didn’t reply to some of the questions or comments, I apologize. I have to get back on my regular daily schedule so I can get some work done.If you guys keep discussing it, I hope you have a great discussion!
Thanks for the clarification Brian. I will respect that. And yes these discussions can be very time consuming.
I tend to focus on what matters and point people to posts I have previously made if they ask a question I have already answered elsewehere.Blessings 🙂
Thanks for the clarification Brian. I will respect that. And yes these discussions can be very time consuming.
I tend to focus on what matters and point people to posts I have previously made if they ask a question I have already answered elsewhere. Otherwise you can end up repeating yourself many times over.Blessings 🙂
Hi Brian,
Brainwashing means that a person was told something and believed it. The opposite of brainwashing would be that the person came to their beliefs completely on their own. One might say that God showed them the truth internally, so it didn’t come from an outside source of influence. People who learn from God don’t have anxiety or anger when their beliefs are challenged. They don’t need people to believe what they believe.
That is interesting. So, when a person learns from God, there is no anxiety or anger, or need to have others believe the same. What would you say about the deeper issues though, such as two people who disagree about something such as eternal conscious torment : one believes, one doesn’t. And also, what about SHARING beliefs with those who do not know what you do, such as those of other faiths?
The topic is about resolving emotional issues, how emotional issues function, how they drive our behaviors (sin), how they are dealt with, and how that gets us in touch with our child-of-God self.
I think the most important thing as a Christian is to be non-judgmental. In being non-judgmental, and loving people regardless of what they may do, or have done, we are presenting to them an open door, where they can tell us anything without hesitation, knowing they will have unconditional love back, and can come to us with anything without fear, which is exactly how we should be with God (:
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