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Question 21: Why am I unable to make contact with God ?
Quote This is an honest question that many of us ask. First of all I want you to know that God speaks to us all the time and everyday its just that God speaks to us differently to people. It has often been said that God moves in mysterious ways, well I can tell you right now that God speaks to us in mysterious ways too. It is up to us to see what God is doing and to hear what God is saying.
Excuses excuses. This is an inaudible, invisible, insensible, tasteless and odourless god. How could anyone possibly honestly claim to know anything about it? Your understanding of your god was invented by anonymous ancient writers and the Council of Nicaea.Quote The point that I am trying to bring out is that we have eyes and we have ears and we have understanding, yet some cannot see or hear or understand God because of the hardness of their hearts.
So sensory difficulties with your god arise not from its lack of existence but from some previously unknown cardiac disorder.Quote I am not saying that you personally have a hard heart toward God, but a bad attitude toward God can blind us from him. He reveals himself to the innocent and to those that honestly seek him with all their heart.
And what of all those who were honest and never heard? And all those who thought they heard before realising that it was delusion? Are you right and they wrong? How would you justify that?Quote Another possible reason for not hearing God can be ignorance. What I mean by this is that we do hear and see and understand what God is saying, its just that we may not recognise it as God. We may think it is our own mind for example. Let me explain further. All things happen because it is Gods will or because he allows it even though it is not his will, but rather the will of another. God the Father speaks to us all the time its just that he doesn't talk to us directly most if not all of the time. God speaks to us in many ways. He spoke to many people 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ walked the earth. See 2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
In other words, if you can’t think of something that could be interpreted as a sign from god, then you need to think of everything as a sign from god. Of course when the signal is indistinguishable from the background, only the deluded would continue to call it a signal.Quote Many people heard what Jesus said, it's just that they didn't realise that it was God speaking though his Son. God has spoken through the prophets and many heard what was said, yet many didn't attribute the message as coming from God. Today God speaks to us by his Holy Spirit who convicts all men of sin, righteousness and judgement. Many have felt the conviction of God and many have known the right thing to do, yet they do not realise that it is God speaking to them.
Hark! Hear the screech of a slipping car fanbelt. That is none other than the voice of god talking to you.Quote When I read the Book of Revelation I know that God is talking to me. Yet this book came from God and was passed down the line to Jesus, then to the Angel and then to John. John then sent it to the 7 churches and since then scribes have copied this text faithfully down through the ages which is where my version of the Book of Revelation came from. Yet I know that God speaks to me through that book and his Spirit confirms his words. See the verse below.
Revelation 1:1 (English-KJV)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
You don’t know who wrote it, so how can you assert that it was passed on from Jesus?As for angels…
Quote So yes God speaks to me but he speaks to me through many ways. This is why it is so important to listen to what people are saying to you. God speaks though people and I am convinced that we miss most of what God is saying to us because we look at the vessel that the message came in and think that it isn't God and yes that is true, but God speaks through these vessels.
…and squeaking fanbelts…Quote Remember that God is invisible
Is god unable to be seen?NO, say
Genesis 12:7
Genesis 17:1
Genesis 18:1
Genesis 26:2
Genesis 26:24
Genesis 32:30
Genesis 35:9
Genesis 48:3
Exodus 3:16
Exodus 4:5
Exodus 6:3
Exodus 24:9-11
Exodus 33:11
Exodus 33:23
Numbers 14:14
Deuteronomy 5:4
Deuteronomy 34:10
Judges 13:22
1 Kings 22:19
Job 42:5
Psalm 63.2
Isaiah 6:1
Isaiah 6:5
Ezekiel 1:27
Ezekiel 20:35
Amos 7:7
Amos 9:1
Matthew 18:9But YES say:
Exodus 33:20
John 1:18
John 6:46
1 Timothy 1:17
1 Timothy 6:16
1 John 4:12Quote and he is Spirit and he also fills the universe and resides outside of his creation too.
…an easier claim to make than to explain. Or just the usual fatuous platitude.Quote So why should we limit God to a human voice. Our spoken languages are a series of verbal sounds and tones that convey a meaning or picture to our mind, and our launguages are very limited. God usually bypasses this, and gives us the understanding or picture directly into our minds and spirits. This way it is less likely to be tainted by our own prejudices and narrow mindedness and of course some things that God shows us cannot be fully communicated by our limited language. This is why God gives us dreams and visions, infact visions is his language. Usually when God speaks to us verbally, it is usually because he needs our attention at that moment, perhaps to seize a moment, or to help us avoid some kind of imminent danger. Otherwise he prefers to speak to us by the lang
uage of his Spirit because it is a much richer form of communication.
If everything could be communication from god then nothing specifically IS NOT communication from god.Quote I think we will be very surprised how many times God speaks to us in our dreams for example. He probably speaks to us every night in this way and even though you may not remember your dreams, I can guarantee you that what God has said to you will be manifested eventually.
I dreamt that god was sorry for killing Uzzah who was only trying to help.Quote Have you for example had a dream and been woken from that dream and remembered it, only to forget it right away when fully awoke. Or perhaps you had a dream and when you awoke you found that you could not explain the dream to anyone because what you had just seen and felt could not be described in words. Now just for a moment I want you to hold that thought as I show you something else. Can you think of anything that doesn't exist or think of something that you have never seen ? Well the answer is “no”. You cannot. Why don't you try it now…….. Did you think of something that you have never seen or something that has never existed.
Yes: the Judeo-christian god.Quote If you think you have, then I want you to look at that thought and see that it is made up of things that you have seen. For example I may have thought of a 50 foot monster made of marshmellow. Ok fair enough this doesn't exist, yet the components of this monster are made up of things that I have seen.
And what makes it a really bad analogy is that you could make one, then it would exist.Quote Marshmellow, 50 feet, head, body, teeth etc. Or maybe you thought of a worm hole that enables you to travel through time. Well worm holes may or may not exist but it is made up of familiar concepts such as time, a tunnel etc. Can you think of a colour that you have never seen. If you think you can then I guarantee you that it is just a combination of other colours that you have seen. Bearing this in mind and now going back to the thought that you have on hold to do with dreams that you have experienced but cannot describe in words, it becomes obvious that these types of dreams cannot be coming from your own mind because you are experiencing and seeing things that you have never seen or experienced before. This is not true for all dreams, but I just wanted to show you that someone is communicating to us in our dreams and that person is God who is the Father of our Spirits. Sometimes God may send and Angel to communicate to us in our dreams or whatever, but regardless of who he sends, it is God who is the originator of that thought or message or experience. Of course I know that dreams are often our own minds, fantasies or fears and can also have its origin in evil, but many do come from God. Listen to your dreams, God is trying to tell you many things there.
What a load of nonsense pop psychology. Does it say all this in scripture, or are you making up scripture yourself now?I believe that if you seek God with all your heart then you will find him.
I myself hear from God and his voice is an inner knowing in my heart of what his will is or what he is saying to me. If I harden my heart to that inner voice then I will most likely fall away from him slowly. But if I obey his voice then Gods will for my life can be realised and my relationship with him will become more intimate. I hear God speak to me many times, and I have also heard him on few occassions actually speak to my mind verbally and very clearly in English.
You wouldn’t think god would believe in English, as it is a product of language evolution, and not one a creation following the Tower of Babel incident. Although of course the creation ended on the sixth day according to Genesis. So that doesn’t even make sense.Quote When I first gave my life to God, He put me through what I can best describe as a training course that was designed for me to hear his voice.
One day when I was at work I was sorting through a pile of invoices that I had processed ready for payment. I then heard what I thought was God speaking to me. He was conveying to me the understanding that I had made a mistake in my work and that I should check my work. So I did, yet I couldn't find any mistakes. I was in a hurry to finish my work, but I could still hear God telling me that I had made a mistake. I nearly ignored him because I was in a hurry, but I decided that this was an opportune moment to actually see if I was really hearing from him or not. I checked my work again and still couldn't find any mistakes. I then started to get disillussioned because in the past I had taken this voice to be the voice of God and he never let me down before. I decided that I would check my work again and I found the mistake. It was small, but the ramifications were quite big and I was very happy that I had listened to God because he saved me from any trouble that I would have caused from this mistake.A couple of weeks later I was in a hurry again and driving quite fast down a street because I was behind schedule in my job. I clearly heard God speak to me. He told me to slow down. I said to God that I was in a hurry and needed to drive fast to catch up to my schedule. He responded by telling me to slow down as my schedule wasn't important in comparison to obeying his voice. I reluctantly slowed down even though I was in a desperate hurry. I reasoned that it is alway better to obey the voice of God rather than stick to my own agenda and I remembered how God helped me out before when I listened to him. All of a sudden a truck drove out of a driveway and onto the road without even looking and I knew without a doubt that I would of hit the truck if I hadn't slowed down. I then thanked God that he saved me from this potential accident and sped up again to overtake the truck. Again God spoke to me and said slow down and do not overtake the truck, so I obeyed him and slowed down. He then said to me pull back from the truck, so I had to slow down to about 40 KPH. I then started to feel a bit rediculous as I was sure that the cars behind me must be getting frustrated at my very slow speed. I said to God, why do you want me to do this. The danger is over isn't it ? Next I gazed in amazment as I watched the load on the back of the truck fall onto the road. Boxes and containers of fish were sprawled all over the road, but because I was a good distance from the truck and because I was driving slow, I was able to stop without any danger to me or the cars behind me.
After this I just thanked God and said to him that I would obey him when I heard him speaking to me from now on. I reasoned that obeying God is not a chore it is actually a good thing to obey him as he loves us and wants to protect us.
And if you hear a screeching fanbelt, it is god telling you that the car owner needs to get the fanbelt tightened or replaced.Of course you don’t really need a god to tell you that
. Or tell you anything at all for that matter.Quote My message to you is this. Don't ignore that still small voice in your heart. If you have never made God your master, then you will need to first turn from your sins and turn to him and serve him first. It is important that you seek him and that you know his voice. God truly wants an intimate relationship with you and he wants you to communicate with him as he communicates with you. This relationship will take time to develop, like any friendship does. But a true relationship with God is the most rewarding, fulfilling and intimate relationship a person can have
In other words you cannot tell whether it is god talking to you or not, so you MUST just accept that it is. Work on it, because believing things that obviously ain’t so takes a bit of practise.Quote And again I want to remind you that God speaks to us all the time. If we cannot hear him then we need to ask him to open our ears, we need to ask him to open our eyes and we need to ask him to open our minds and hearts. If you genuinely have put God first in your life, then you will inevitably move forward in your relationship with him and and as a result, you will learn to know his voice. As you obey him your discernment will be sharpened and as you mature spiritually, you will be less and less likely to listen to the voice of another. In the same way that sheep hear the voice of their shepherd, but will ignore the voice of another.
And if you still can’t hear god after that, then obviously you are one of the ones who has had your heart hardened by him, and you will pay for your ignorance by being dug up after you are dead, punished by burning, then buried again. Some christians call that justice.If you do not know his voice today. Then start by praying to the Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ his Son. You can be sure that if you ask anything in Jesus Name and according to Gods will then you will have it.
Or you could try a Patronus spell.Quote Being able to discern Gods voice is how we are lead into Gods will for our lives. Being a friend of God and seeking him is how you will hear him. So I encourage you to seek him with all your heart, and obey his voice. Remember that God is Love and he truly wants to bless you with the riches of his life.
God doesn’t want you to use your body parts like you think he might. You should listen with your heart. And talk through your…Quote Some people have conveyed to me that they prayed to God and he never answered them. The reason why God hasn't answered them is because they are not really interested in having a true relationship with God and they are not willing to repent. God sees their heart. God will speak to us when we are serious about knowing him and remember that God always looks at our heart. He hears everything we say, verbally or in our mind and he is always on the lookout for a heart that is seeking him.
The logical fallacy of No True Scotsman.Stuart
Oh dear. Attempt two:
https://heavennet.net/answers/
Question 21: Why am I unable to make contact with God ?
Quote This is an honest question that many of us ask. First of all I want you to know that God speaks to us all the time and everyday its just that God speaks to us differently to people. It has often been said that God moves in mysterious ways, well I can tell you right now that God speaks to us in mysterious ways too. It is up to us to see what God is doing and to hear what God is saying.
Excuses excuses. This is an inaudible, invisible, insensible, tasteless and odourless god. How could anyone possibly honestly claim to know anything about it? Your understanding of your god was invented by anonymous ancient writers and the Council of Nicaea.Quote The point that I am trying to bring out is that we have eyes and we have ears and we have understanding, yet some cannot see or hear or understand God because of the hardness of their hearts.
So sensory difficulties with your god arise not from its lack of existence but from some previously unknown cardiac disorder.Quote I am not saying that you personally have a hard heart toward God, but a bad attitude toward God can blind us from him. He reveals himself to the innocent and to those that honestly seek him with all their heart.
And what of all those who were honest and never heard? And all those who thought they heard before realising that it was delusion? Are you right and they wrong? How would you justify that?Quote Another possible reason for not hearing God can be ignorance. What I mean by this is that we do hear and see and understand what God is saying, its just that we may not recognise it as God. We may think it is our own mind for example. Let me explain further. All things happen because it is Gods will or because he allows it even though it is not his will, but rather the will of another. God the Father speaks to us all the time its just that he doesn't talk to us directly most if not all of the time. God speaks to us in many ways. He spoke to many people 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ walked the earth. See 2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
In other words, if you can’t think of something that could be interpreted as a sign from god, then you need to think of everything as a sign from god. Of course when the signal is indistinguishable from the background, only the deluded would continue to call it a signal.Quote Many people heard what Jesus said, it's just that they didn't realise that it was God speaking though his Son. God has spoken through the prophets and many heard what was said, yet many didn't attribute the message as coming from God. Today God speaks to us by his Holy Spirit who convicts all men of sin, righteousness and judgement. Many have felt the conviction of God and many have known the right thing to do, yet they do not realise that it is God speaking to them.
Hark! Hear the screech of a slipping car fanbelt. That is none other than the voice of god talking to you.Quote When I read the Book of Revelation I know that God is talking to me. Yet this book came from God and was passed down the line to Jesus, then to the Angel and then to John. John then sent it to the 7 churches and since then scribes have copied this text faithfully down through the ages which is where my version of the Book of Revelation came from. Yet I know that God speaks to me through that book and his Spirit confirms his words. See the verse below.
Revelation 1:1 (English-KJV)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
You don’t know who wrote it, so how can you assert that it was passed on from Jesus?As for angels…
Quote So yes God speaks to me but he speaks to me through many ways. This is why it is so important to listen to what people are saying to you. God speaks though people and I am convinced that we miss most of what God is saying to us because we look at the vessel that the message came in and think that it isn't God and yes that is true, but God speaks through these vessels.
…and squeaking fanbelts…Quote Remember that God is invisible
Is god unable to be seen?NO, say
Genesis 12:7
Genesis 17:1
Genesis 18:1
Genesis 26:2
Genesis 26:24
Genesis 32:30
Genesis 35:9
Genesis 48:3
Exodus 3:16
Exodus 4:5
Exodus 6:3
Exodus 24:9-11
Exodus 33:11
Exodus 33:23
Numbers 14:14
Deuteronomy 5:4
Deuteronomy 34:10
Judges 13:22
1 Kings 22:19
Job 42:5
Psalm 63.2
Isaiah 6:1
Isaiah 6:5
Ezekiel 1:27
Ezekiel 20:35
Amos 7:7
Amos 9:1
Matthew 18:9But YES say:
Exodus 33:20
John 1:18
John 6:46
1 Timothy 1:17
1 Timothy 6:16
1 John 4:12Quote and he is Spirit and he also fills the universe and resides outside of his creation too.
…an easier claim to make than to explain. Or just the usual fatuous platitude.Quote So why should we limit God to a human voice. Our spoken languages are a series of verbal sounds and tones that convey a meaning or picture to our mind, and our launguages are very limited. God usually bypasses this, and gives us the understanding or picture directly into our minds and spirits. This way it is less likely to be tainted by our own prejudices and narrow mindedness and of course some things that God shows us cannot be fully communicated by our limited language. This is why God gives us dreams and visions, infact visions is his language. Usually when God speaks to us verbally, it is usually because he needs our attention at that moment, perhaps to seize a moment, or to help us avoid some kind of imminent danger. Otherwise he pref
ers to speak to us by the language of his Spirit because it is a much richer form of communication.
If everything could be communication from god then nothing specifically IS NOT communication from god.Quote I think we will be very surprised how many times God speaks to us in our dreams for example. He probably speaks to us every night in this way and even though you may not remember your dreams, I can guarantee you that what God has said to you will be manifested eventually.
I dreamt that god was sorry for killing Uzzah who was only trying to help.Quote Have you for example had a dream and been woken from that dream and remembered it, only to forget it right away when fully awoke. Or perhaps you had a dream and when you awoke you found that you could not explain the dream to anyone because what you had just seen and felt could not be described in words. Now just for a moment I want you to hold that thought as I show you something else. Can you think of anything that doesn't exist or think of something that you have never seen ? Well the answer is “no”. You cannot. Why don't you try it now…….. Did you think of something that you have never seen or something that has never existed.
Yes: the Judeo-christian god.Quote If you think you have, then I want you to look at that thought and see that it is made up of things that you have seen. For example I may have thought of a 50 foot monster made of marshmellow. Ok fair enough this doesn't exist, yet the components of this monster are made up of things that I have seen.
And what makes it a really bad analogy is that you could make one, then it would exist.Quote Marshmellow, 50 feet, head, body, teeth etc. Or maybe you thought of a worm hole that enables you to travel through time. Well worm holes may or may not exist but it is made up of familiar concepts such as time, a tunnel etc. Can you think of a colour that you have never seen. If you think you can then I guarantee you that it is just a combination of other colours that you have seen. Bearing this in mind and now going back to the thought that you have on hold to do with dreams that you have experienced but cannot describe in words, it becomes obvious that these types of dreams cannot be coming from your own mind because you are experiencing and seeing things that you have never seen or experienced before. This is not true for all dreams, but I just wanted to show you that someone is communicating to us in our dreams and that person is God who is the Father of our Spirits. Sometimes God may send and Angel to communicate to us in our dreams or whatever, but regardless of who he sends, it is God who is the originator of that thought or message or experience. Of course I know that dreams are often our own minds, fantasies or fears and can also have its origin in evil, but many do come from God. Listen to your dreams, God is trying to tell you many things there.
What a load of nonsense pop psychology. Does it say all this in scripture, or are you making up scripture yourself now?Quote I believe that if you seek God with all your heart then you will find him.
I myself hear from God and his voice is an inner knowing in my heart of what his will is or what he is saying to me. If I harden my heart to that inner voice then I will most likely fall away from him slowly. But if I obey his voice then Gods will for my life can be realised and my relationship with him will become more intimate. I hear God speak to me many times, and I have also heard him on few occassions actually speak to my mind verbally and very clearly in English.
You wouldn’t think god would believe in English, as it is a product of language evolution, and not one a creation following the Tower of Babel incident. Although of course the creation ended on the sixth day according to Genesis. So that doesn’t even make sense.Quote When I first gave my life to God, He put me through what I can best describe as a training course that was designed for me to hear his voice.
One day when I was at work I was sorting through a pile of invoices that I had processed ready for payment. I then heard what I thought was God speaking to me. He was conveying to me the understanding that I had made a mistake in my work and that I should check my work. So I did, yet I couldn't find any mistakes. I was in a hurry to finish my work, but I could still hear God telling me that I had made a mistake. I nearly ignored him because I was in a hurry, but I decided that this was an opportune moment to actually see if I was really hearing from him or not. I checked my work again and still couldn't find any mistakes. I then started to get disillussioned because in the past I had taken this voice to be the voice of God and he never let me down before. I decided that I would check my work again and I found the mistake. It was small, but the ramifications were quite big and I was very happy that I had listened to God because he saved me from any trouble that I would have caused from this mistake.A couple of weeks later I was in a hurry again and driving quite fast down a street because I was behind schedule in my job. I clearly heard God speak to me. He told me to slow down. I said to God that I was in a hurry and needed to drive fast to catch up to my schedule. He responded by telling me to slow down as my schedule wasn't important in comparison to obeying his voice. I reluctantly slowed down even though I was in a desperate hurry. I reasoned that it is alway better to obey the voice of God rather than stick to my own agenda and I remembered how God helped me out before when I listened to him. All of a sudden a truck drove out of a driveway and onto the road without even looking and I knew without a doubt that I would of hit the truck if I hadn't slowed down. I then thanked God that he saved me from this potential accident and sped up again to overtake the truck. Again God spoke to me and said slow down and do not overtake the truck, so I obeyed him and slowed down. He then said to me pull back from the truck, so I had to slow down to about 40 KPH. I then started to feel a bit rediculous as I was sure that the cars behind me must be getting frustrated at my very slow speed. I said to God, why do you want me to do this. The danger is over isn't it ? Next I gazed in amazment as I watched the load on the back of the truck fall onto the road. Boxes and containers of fish were sprawled all over the road, but because I was a good distance from the truck and because I was driving slow, I was able to stop without any danger to me or the cars behind me.
After this I just thanked God and said to him that I would obey him when I heard him speaking to me from now on. I reasoned that obeying God is not a chore it is actually a good thing to obey him as he loves us and wants to protect us.
And if you hear a screeching fanbelt, it is god telling you that the car owner needs to get the fanbelt tightened or replaced.Of course you don’t really need a god to tell you that. Or tell you anything at all for that matter.
Quote My message to you is this. Don't ignore that still small voice in your heart. If you have never made God your master, then you will need to first turn from your sins and turn to him and serve him first. It is important that you seek him and that you know his voice. God truly wants an intimate relationship with you and he wants you to communicate with him as he communicates with you. This relationship will take time to develop, like any friendship does. But a true relationship with God is the most rewarding, fulfilling and intimate relationship a person can have
In other words you cannot tell whether it is god talking to you or not, so you MUST just accept that it is. Work on it, because believing things that obviously ain’t so takes a bit of practise.Quote And again I want to remind you that God speaks to us all the time. If we cannot hear him then we need to ask him to open our ears, we need to ask him to open our eyes and we need to ask him to open our minds and hearts. If you genuinely have put God first in your life, then you will inevitably move forward in your relationship with him and and as a result, you will learn to know his voice. As you obey him your discernment will be sharpened and as you mature spiritually, you will be less and less likely to listen to the voice of another. In the same way that sheep hear the voice of their shepherd, but will ignore the voice of another.
And if you still can’t hear god after that, then obviously you are one of the ones who has had your heart hardened by him, and you will pay for your ignorance by being dug up after you are dead, punished by burning, then buried again. Some christians call that justice.Quote If you do not know his voice today. Then start by praying to the Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ his Son. You can be sure that if you ask anything in Jesus Name and according to Gods will then you will have it.
Or you could try a Patronus spell.Quote Being able to discern Gods voice is how we are lead into Gods will for our lives. Being a friend of God and seeking him is how you will hear him. So I encourage you to seek him with all your heart, and obey his voice. Remember that God is Love and he truly wants to bless you with the riches of his life.
God doesn’t want you to use your body parts like you think he might. You should listen with your heart. And talk through your…Quote Some people have conveyed to me that they prayed to God and he never answered them. The reason why God hasn't answered them is because they are not really interested in having a true relationship with God and they are not willing to repent. God sees their heart. God will speak to us when we are serious about knowing him and remember that God always looks at our heart. He hears everything we say, verbally or in our mind and he is always on the lookout for a heart that is seeking him.
The logical fallacy of No True Scotsman.Stuart
I guess it is only fair to point out that t8 has made a set of brilliant excuses for the scriptural contradictions regarding whether you can see god or not, here:
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer33.htm
His most ingenious excuse is, I believe, this one:
the word Lord in our modern translations doesn't always refer to the Most High God.
So maybe it refers to other gods. Oh wait, he means angels. Or 'vessels'.
What a web we weave now, eh? You cannot depend on the word LORD in scripture.
Stuart
Hi Stu.
When you do not believe in the big picture, then the finer points will also seem foolish.
Our gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. Likewise, not believing in a creator is foolishness to me as I agree that it is truly a fool that says in his heart that there is no God.Not all can see, some are blind. I use to make the same kind of arguments when I was blind and foolish (atheist). But now I can see, and I have changed my stance completely. My conclusion is that you are blind and this is why you say what you say.
The thing you have to challenge yourself with is why you spend half your days debating against the existence of an imaginary God (according to your view). I mean, I don't spend half my life debating with those who believe that crop circles are a form of alien communication. I couldn't be bothered wasting my time on something that appears by most definitions not to be not true.
Perhaps something deep down is making you react in this way. The truth has a funny way of challenging and offending people to the highest degree. The truth is so deep that people react to it without even realising what they are really doing.
Why don't you take 3 months off, and spend that same time in debating with those who have had alien abductions and prove to them that it is all in their mind and imaginary. If you do this with the same passion and especially if you get hooked and spend years challenging them, then I will take back what I have said in this post.
BTW, thanks for challenging the writing, that is what the forum is for.
I might get around to reading it later today.Thanks.
t8
Quote When you do not believe in the big picture, then the finer points will also seem foolish.
Our gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. Likewise, not believing in a creator is foolishness to me as I agree that it is truly a fool that says in his heart that there is no God.
Your ‘big picture’ is the sum of its parts. Each part is absurd.Quote Not all can see, some are blind. I use to make the same kind of arguments when I was blind and foolish (atheist). But now I can see, and I have changed my stance completely. My conclusion is that you are blind and this is why you say what you say.
My conclusion is that your delusion tells you that you see the world differently from others. Just listen to Tom Cruise on YouTube to see how silly christians sound when they call others blind.You have never been able to describe to me anything that I cannot ‘see’ (or rather see through).
Quote The thing you have to challenge yourself with is why you spend half your days debating against the existence of an imaginary God (according to your view). I mean, I don't spend half my life debating with those who believe that crop circles are a form of alien communication. I couldn't be bothered wasting my time on something that appears by most definitions not to be not true.
The crop circle people do not lie about natural history or tell others they will be punished by their Imaginary Friend for breaking dark age superstitions, or crimes that are not even defined. That makes christians much more interesting to challenge, because they are projecting their nonsense on others.Quote Perhaps something deep down is making you react in this way. The truth has a funny way of challenging and offending people to the highest degree. The truth is so deep that people react to it without even realising what they are really doing.
Oh please. Turn the record over. Truth is a personal interpretation. Your truth is just as much a fantasy to me as my truth is to you, yet you are earnestly suggesting that your fantasy is the ONLY way to live.Quote Why don't you take 3 months off, and spend that same time in debating with those who have had alien abductions and prove to them that it is all in their mind and imaginary. If you do this with the same passion and especially if you get hooked and spend years challenging them, then I will take back what I have said in this post.
I think you should retract all the strawman arguments and falsehoods just because it is the right thing to do, not because of any deal that gets me off your back.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2010,19:14) Your ‘big picture’ is the sum of its parts. Each part is absurd.
And your big picture is that nothing caused the universe, or something did, but that something was strictly not alive in any way coz it just wasn't.That is absurd is it not? You have failed to date to show how nothing can be turned into something and you have also failed to demonstrate how to make a dead thing alive. You can start with a dead frog if you want. Make sure it has been dead for a few days, and then make it alive. That should be much easier than non-intelligence coming up with life, surely.
In both cases which you are limited to by reason of your denial of a creator, you have no evidence and if you look at those two points, they are much more absurd than belief in a creator, the option I subscribe to.
You know I just said to someone the other day how often people who accuse or ridicule others do so for the very thing that they are or that they are doing. It's like these people hate themselves but cannot admit it. So they hate or ridicule others and accuse them of the very thing that they do or that they are themselves.
Anyway, in case you missed it Stu, (as is quite possible) your 2 remaining options for denying a creator, is nothing and something non-living as being the cause of the beginning of the universe. Either belief assumes that what caused the universe was dead, or was nothing.
Ha ha ha. Stu you can laugh along too. It is good to have a sense of humour and if you can agree that these 2 points are absurd and I know that you think the idea of a creator is absurd, then that leaves 3 absurd explanations for you, as to what caused the universe/big bang thingy.
So you have to choose one of the 3 absurd choices or abstain from them and admit you know nothing and therefore are not qualified to speak on this subject in a scientific way, but as a belief or bias only.
So do I hear an admission that you do not know what you are talking about? Come on Stu, stand up and be honest. You do not know and therefore, yes you are entitled to an opinion or a belief, but don't pretend that this opinion is science because that is not fair to science.
Belief in God is actually not that crazy, when you look at the alternatives Stu. But I have never heard you be honest about this. In fact the only option that actually has any proof is that everything was created by an intelligence.
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2010,19:14) You have never been able to describe to me anything that I cannot ‘see’ (or rather see through).
What about a black hole, or dark energy?
What about a murder that you never witnessed? What about a tree that has been uprooted and is lying on its side? Can you believe that it at one time fell over, even though you never witnessed it?You obviously do not believe that these are possible given your conditional standards.
And what does Tom have to do with anything. Sorry I didn't read your post.
I might be wrong, but I thought that Scientology doesn't believe anything on faith. What is true is true because they have personally observed it to be true. If this is the case, it actually sounds very much the argument you continually make. i.e., that you believe only that which you can observe.
Therefore, you might actually be a closet Scientologist Stu.
Stu the Scientologist kind of has a ring to it don't you think?
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 15 2010,23:03) I guess it is only fair to point out that t8 has made a set of brilliant excuses for the scriptural contradictions regarding whether you can see god or not, here: https://heavennet.net/answers/answer33.htm
His most ingenious excuse is, I believe, this one:
the word Lord in our modern translations doesn't always refer to the Most High God.
So maybe it refers to other gods. Oh wait, he means angels. Or 'vessels'.
What a web we weave now, eh? You cannot depend on the word LORD in scripture.
Stuart
Um, Lord (kurios) is about authority. Have you ever rented someone's house? They were your landlord. Is the Lord of the Manor, God?Paul in scripture says that indeed there are many lords, but for us there is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I should also mention that YHWH, was translated as LORD in scripture. In other words the Supreme Lord. I think it would have been better to leave it as YHWH, than cause confusion with Jesus. As you seem to have demonstrated and many others also. NOTE: YHWH and kurios are not the same. Two different languages for a start and they are not direct translations at all. One is a name, the other a title.
Try again Stu.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,23:20) And what does Tom have to do with anything. Sorry I didn't read your post.
Maybe you should read the post before posting yourself?Stuart
Quote And your big picture is that nothing caused the universe, or something did, but that something was strictly not alive in any way coz it just wasn't. That is absurd is it not? You have failed to date to show how nothing can be turned into something and you have also failed to demonstrate how to make a dead thing alive. You can start with a dead frog if you want. Make sure it has been dead for a few days, and then make it alive. That should be much easier than non-intelligence coming up with life, surely.
It is not that I have failed to show how the matter and energy in the universe came to be, it is that you have failed to understand it. I have failed to give you a rigorous scientific description of abiogenesis, because there isn’t one, but it would be hypocritical of you to criticise that because you cannot tell me how life arose either. That in itself is absurd. The standard model of cosmology is not.Quote In both cases which you are limited to by reason of your denial of a creator, you have no evidence and if you look at those two points, they are much more absurd than belief in a creator, the option I subscribe to.
Your statement is absurd because you cannot prove a negative. However you can say that there is no evidence to support your creator concept.Quote You know I just said to someone the other day how often people who accuse or ridicule others do so for the very thing that they are or that they are doing. It's like these people hate themselves but cannot admit it. So they hate or ridicule others and accuse them of the very thing that they do or that they are themselves.
Which is all an irrelevant ad hominem argument. Whether I love or loathe myself makes absolutely no difference at all to what the best model is to explain the universe and its contents. To use that logical fallacy would be absurd.Quote Anyway, in case you missed it Stu, (as is quite possible) your 2 remaining options for denying a creator, is nothing and something non-living as being the cause of the beginning of the universe. Either belief assumes that what caused the universe was dead, or was nothing. Ha ha ha. Stu you can laugh along too. It is good to have a sense of humour and if you can agree that these 2 points are absurd and I know that you think the idea of a creator is absurd, then that leaves 3 absurd explanations for you, as to what caused the universe/big bang thingy. So you have to choose one of the 3 absurd choices or abstain from them and admit you know nothing and therefore are not qualified to speak on this subject in a scientific way, but as a belief or bias only.
I will leave it to anyone reading this to review the other threads in which t8 has persisted with this line of strawman manufacture. His is an absurd position from which to argue: ad nauseam almost qualifies as a description of a logically fallacious argument in t8’s case.Quote So do I hear an admission that you do not know what you are talking about? Come on Stu, stand up and be honest. You do not know and therefore, yes you are entitled to an opinion or a belief, but don't pretend that this opinion is science because that is not fair to science.
If the evidence shows that I am wrong, then I am wrong. Where is your unambiguous evidence? All you have is assertion and ad hominem.Quote Belief in God is actually not that crazy, when you look at the alternatives Stu. But I have never heard you be honest about this. In fact the only option that actually has any proof is that everything was created by an intelligence.
Pathetic. Assertion, assertion, assertion. You could host a TV show with that title, one in which you help people to find their ideal religious delusion.I would guess they would find that christianity is their ideal religion every time, right?
Stuart
Quote What about a black hole, or dark energy?
What about them? We can ‘see’ black holes by the effect they have on light. We can ‘see’ dark matter in the same way.Quote What about a murder that you never witnessed? What about a tree that has been uprooted and is lying on its side? Can you believe that it at one time fell over, even though you never witnessed it? You obviously do not believe that these are possible given your conditional standards.
What about them? Are you saying that if there was a tree blown over, you would be able to see it and I would not?Quote Um, Lord (kurios) is about authority. Have you ever rented someone's house? They were your landlord. Is the Lord of the Manor, God? Paul in scripture says that indeed there are many lords, but for us there is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I should also mention that YHWH, was translated as LORD in scripture. In other words the Supreme Lord. I think it would have been better to leave it as YHWH, than cause confusion with Jesus. As you seem to have demonstrated and many others also. NOTE: YHWH and kurios are not the same. Two different languages for a start and they are not direct translations at all. One is a name, the other a title.
0OK, fair enough. You are entitled to invent the language of your own special fantasy world as you please.It is just as important to realise that while a mobiliarbus charm moves objects, a mobilicorpus spell moves unconscious bodies.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,15:38) We can ‘see’ black holes by the effect they have on light.
We can see God the same way. Effect has a cause.Have a nice day.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 05 2010,09:45) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,15:38) We can ‘see’ black holes by the effect they have on light.
We can see God the same way. Effect has a cause.Have a nice day.
When a black hole is one of the pair of stars in a binary star system, it will ALWAYS cause the visible star to oscillate.On the other hand, what has ever been seen of your god that cannot possibly be attributed to anything else?
Analogy is not evidence t8, although it appears to be all you have.
Stuart
When Black Holes were first hypothesised, it was done so by detective work, not observation. The idea of an object with gravity strong enough to prevent light from escaping was proposed by a guy called John Michell. In 1795, Pierre-Simon Laplace, a French physicist independently came to the same conclusion.
So just as the idea of the existence of Black Holes led to some to prove that they existed, the same thing can be said with God. When you look up at the stars and realise that each one is a sun in our galaxy, it makes you question how such brilliance and design got there.
With God, we can use detective analysis to see that there is evidence of an intelligence far beyond anything we can comprehend by reason of the techniques and systems we can observe in the universe. From there we can prove the existence of God by seeking him. Millions can attest to this and I am not talking about cultural religion or religion that is inherited, but a true seeking for the truth.
It is safe to assume that observation of black holes and God will be different. Black Holes are small enough for us to observe or to observe what is happening around them. God on the other hand is eternal. You cannot observe something that is eternal in our finite position. We can know of God in other ways, ways of which you are currently blind too.
t8
Quote When Black Holes were first hypothesised, it was done so by detective work, not observation. The idea of an object with gravity strong enough to prevent light from escaping was proposed by a guy called John Michell. In 1795, Pierre-Simon Laplace, a French physicist independently came to the same conclusion.
So, at this stage of things, we have an hypothesis. It is a suggestion based on application of laws of physics, of how a large mass might behave under very high gravitational forces.Quote So just as the idea of the existence of Black Holes led to some to prove that they existed, the same thing can be said with God. When you look up at the stars and realise that each one is a sun in our galaxy, it makes you question how such brilliance and design got there.
There is no such thing as proof of black holes, however the visible member of a binary star system that is in oscillation, or the gravitational lensing effect of a suspected black hole are best explained by the concept of a black hole. By contrast there is no unambiguous evidence for your god whatever, and the main reason is that gods are conjectures, not hypotheses: you cannot reason the existence of a god from known principles without using logically fallacious arguments because there are no known principles from which predictions can be made. The “principles” are different depending on which god believer you ask, and the rare examples of predictions have generally proven to be wrong.Quote With God, we can use detective analysis to see that there is evidence of an intelligence far beyond anything we can comprehend by reason of the techniques and systems we can observe in the universe. From there we can prove the existence of God by seeking him. Millions can attest to this and I am not talking about cultural religion or religion that is inherited, but a true seeking for the truth.
But the fact that you are not telling us what the evidence is speaks volumes about your claim.Quote It is safe to assume that observation of black holes and God will be different. Black Holes are small enough for us to observe or to observe what is happening around them. God on the other hand is eternal. You cannot observe something that is eternal in our finite position. We can know of God in other ways, ways of which you are currently blind too.
So now we are basing everything on what you feel is safe to assume?! Just as analogy is not evidence, description is not explanation and assumption is not fact.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 07 2010,12:21) But the fact that you are not telling us what the evidence is speaks volumes about your claim.
I could spend hours explaining that, and in my experience, unless a person experiences God for himself, then it doesn't actually change a man because what person is going to change his life based on the words of another man? Sure it is a good beginning, but ultimately a person needs to taste for himself to see that it is good.I could also imagine the scenario where you will just throw doubt at everything I say regarding personal testimony, so it would probably be pointless. It would be better if you were honest and admitted that God is certainly possible. That was my level of faith and God did great things in my life after I prayed that I would serve him if I knew he was real.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 07 2010,12:21) So, at this stage of things, we have an hypothesis. It is a suggestion based on application of laws of physics, of how a large mass might behave under very high gravitational forces. There is no such thing as proof of black holes, however the visible member of a binary star system that is in oscillation, or the gravitational lensing effect of a suspected black hole are best explained by the concept of a black hole. By contrast there is no unambiguous evidence for your god whatever, and the main reason is that gods are conjectures, not hypotheses: you cannot reason the existence of a god from known principles without using logically fallacious arguments because there are no known principles from which predictions can be made. The “principles” are different depending on which god believer you ask, and the rare examples of predictions have generally proven to be wrong.
Therefore if it is not proven, (which I agree with) then do you say that Black Holes are not likely and throw out that idea? Of course not and neither should a man be as foolish to throw away the idea that there is a God.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 07 2010,17:22) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 07 2010,12:21) But the fact that you are not telling us what the evidence is speaks volumes about your claim.
I could spend hours explaining that, and in my experience, unless a person experiences God for himself, then it doesn't actually change a man because what person is going to change his life based on the words of another man? Sure it is a good beginning, but ultimately a person needs to taste for himself to see that it is good.I could also imagine the scenario where you will just throw doubt at everything I say regarding personal testimony, so it would probably be pointless. It would be better if you were honest and admitted that God is certainly possible. That was my level of faith and God did great things in my life after I prayed that I would serve him if I knew he was real.
It might also help if believers were to acknowledge that what they call “evidence” is just not credible. It is especially so when those same believers insist that what they believe involved the application of some process of faith, which requires everyone to take seriously things that supposedly cannot be seen.There are perfectly plausible explanations for 'god' experiences that reflect universal human tendencies to belief. To simply dismiss those explanations without considering them also lacks credibility. For those believers to feign victimhood at some perception that others reject their claimed experiences out of hand is disingenous: those believers reject the non-god explanations for their experiences out of hand too. No sympathy is due those who will not consider alternative diagnoses for their symptoms.
No one can credibly say they know there are no gods, all they can do is provisionally make that conclusion. By the same token, it is dishonest for anyone to claim that there definitely is a god.
Stuart
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