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Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,14:26) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Hi BD:Jesus is both the lamb of God that was sacrificed and also the scapegoat. He willingly gave his life for the sins of the world, and he died, but he has been resurrected from the dead and presented alive before God.
The blood that he shed washes away the sins of all who have obeyed God from creation until his ministry, and all who come to God through him since his ministry. Yes, he forgave sins before his death, but it was based on the fact that he would die for the sins of the people and would be raised again from the dead.
If Jesus was not raised again from the dead, there is no resurrection from the dead because the wages of sin is death which means not only physical death but spiritual separation from God. Jesus obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, therefore, he overcame sin and death. God declared him not guilty since he did not sin and raised him from the dead.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Nov. 26 2009,16:00) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,14:26) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Hi BD:Jesus is both the lamb of God that was sacrificed and also the scapegoat. He willingly gave his life for the sins of the world, and he died, but he has been resurrected from the dead and presented alive before God.
The blood that he shed washes away the sins of all who have obeyed God from creation until his ministry, and all who come to God through him since his ministry. Yes, he forgave sins before his death, but it was based on the fact that he would die for the sins of the people and would be raised again from the dead.
If Jesus was not raised again from the dead, there is no resurrection from the dead because the wages of sin is death which means not only physical death but spiritual separation from God. Jesus obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, therefore, he overcame sin and death. God declared him not guilty since he did not sin and raised him from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Where did you learn that death was spiritual seperation from God.So you are saying that Jesus is the scape goat and the Lamb? But the scapegoat does not die and is pesented ALIVE before God it carries away all the sins of the people without any bloodshed from it.
You said that Jesus bore all the sins on the cross so when he “died” he couldn't further carry sins for you say death was the payment. If death was the payment then their is no further payment for sin nor could he atone for anyone today for atonement does not apply to future sins but If he was not killed as the Quran says then he continues to be the scapegoat until his return for then he is a living Sacrifice
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 25 2009,21:20) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 26 2009,16:00) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,14:26) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Hi BD:Jesus is both the lamb of God that was sacrificed and also the scapegoat. He willingly gave his life for the sins of the world, and he died, but he has been resurrected from the dead and presented alive before God.
The blood that he shed washes away the sins of all who have obeyed God from creation until his ministry, and all who come to God through him since his ministry. Yes, he forgave sins before his death, but it was based on the fact that he would die for the sins of the people and would be raised again from the dead.
If Jesus was not raised again from the dead, there is no resurrection from the dead because the wages of sin is death which means not only physical death but spiritual separation from God. Jesus obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, therefore, he overcame sin and death. God declared him not guilty since he did not sin and raised him from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Where did you learn that death was spiritual seperation from God.So you are saying that Jesus is the scape goat and the Lamb? But the scapegoat does not die and is pesented ALIVE before God it carries away all the sins of the people without any bloodshed from it.
You said that Jesus bore all the sins on the cross so when he “died” he couldn't further carry sins for you say death was the payment. If death was the payment then their is no further payment for sin nor could he atone for anyone today for atonement does not apply to future sins but If he was not killed as the Quran says then he continues to be the scapegoat until his return for then he is a living Sacrifice
I am a little confused as well on that issue, is Yeshua the Messiah both the scapegoat and offered sacrificed goat as well as the lamb?
Leviticus 16:21-22 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
The Day of Atonement is one of God's solemn feast days. On the tenth day of the seventh month of God's Scriptural calendar the high priest (Aaron) was to make an atonement for the sins of Israel. To accomplish this Aaron selected two young goats from the congregation of the children of Israel (Leviticus 16:5). He was then instructed to cast lots to determine which goat would be “for the Lord” and which for “the scapegoat” (KJV – from “escape goat”). According to Strong's, the word “scapegoat” comes from the Hebrew “azazel” which literally means “goat of departure.” It is formed from the Hebrew “ez” meaning goat and “azal” meaning “to go away.” The precise meaning has been greatly disputed. Some commentators believe “azazel” refers to the name of the region where the goat was sent. Others believe it to be the proper name of a spirit, demon, or Satan himself. The interpretation that Strong suggests occurs in both the Septuagint and the Vulgate and underlies the rabbinic view, “the goat that is dispatched,” in Mishnah Yoma 6:2.
In “Pentateuch & Haftorahs” by Dr.J.H. Hertz (Late Chief Rabbi of the British Empire), Soncino Press, 1990, pg.481, we read; “The Heb. Azazel, however, is not a proper name, but a rare Hebrew noun … meaning, 'dismissal' or, 'entire removal' (RV Margin, Gesenius, Hoffmann, and the Oxford Hebrew Dictionary). It is the ancient technical term for the entire removal of sin and guilt of the community, that was symbolized by the sending away of the goat into the wilderness.”
Since the word “azazel” is not used anywhere else in Scripture and since there are several opinions as to its meaning, we need to determine, via other Scriptures, its true meaning and interpretation.
The most important point concerning “azazel” (the scapegoat) is found in Leviticus 16:10; “But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him , and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.”
If we choose to believe “azazel” represents Satan, this leads us to the question of whether or not Satan can make an atonement for 'Elohim's people.
Nowhere in Scripture is there a reference to Satan having any part in the atonement.
“And not only so, but we also joy in 'Elohim through our Lord Yeshua Hamashiach, by whom we have now received the atonement” (Romans 5:11).
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:3).
“Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once , when he offered up himself” (Hebrews 7:27).
“For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself ” (Hebrews 9:26).
The Scriptures clearly state that Messiah made the atonement for us by himself.
However, it is suggested by many (including myself until recently) that the first goat represented the atoning work of Yeshua, but the second goat represents Satan.
It is believed that, since Satan was “the original cause” of all sin, “justice demands that 'Elohim place right back on the head of the devil his guilt, not our guilt, but his own guilt, for leading us into sin.”
If that is true, where in Scripture is the fulfillment of Leviticus 16:21?
The antitypical high priest (Yeshua) is to lay hands on Satan's head and confess the sins of Israel upon him.
Yet, we do not find that in Scripture.
It can be said that the angel of Revelation 20:1 represents the “fit man” that sends the goat (Satan) into the wilderness (represented by the “bottomless pit”), but without the fulfillment of the actual laying on of hands or any other references to Satan making an atonement for us, it becomes total assumption, a mere theory.
Some may try to suggest that the angel is in fact Yeshua.
Revelation 19:11-14 portray Yeshua coming down from heaven to earth to smite the nations, the beast, and the false prophet.
Afterwards , the angel of Revelation 20:1 comes down from heaven to bind Satan.
That angel is the only one who lays hands on Satan, not to confess sins on his head, but to cast him into the bottomless pit.
On the other hand, the Scriptures paint a beautiful picture of the fulfillment of Yeshua as the goat that was sent away bearing the sins of Israel.
First read Leviticus 16:22; “And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.”
Now consider the following:
Isaiah 53:6 – “And 'Elohim hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
The sins of Israel were laid on Yeshua.
They were placed upon him and him alone.
Isaiah 53:11 – “For he shall bear their iniquities .”
Isaiah 53:12 – “And he (Yeshua) bare the sin of many …”
Yeshua is the one who bore our sins.
He carried them away upon his own head which is what the Hebrew 'cabal' (bare) means.
Isaiah 53:4 – “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:”
Yeshua is the sin-bearer, not Satan.
Hebrews 9:28 – “So Messiah was once offered to bear the sins of many;”
1 Peter 2:24 – “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree.”
There is no other sin-bearer.
The act of laying on of hands (vs.21; also; Leviticus 1:4; 3:2; 4:4,15,29,33) symbolizes the transference of sins from the guilty party (the children of Israel) to the innocent (azazel).
The innocent then becomes the sin-bearer.
Yeshua undeniably fulfills the type (Isaiah 53:4,6,11,12).
Satan, however, cannot fulfill the type because he was never innocent.
It will not satisfy the justice of 'Elohim to transfer the sins of the guilty to another guilty party.
Since lots were used to decide which goat was “for the Lord,” it meant that both goats had to be unblemished.
The antitype of an unblemished goat was the sinlessness of Messiah.
Can it be said that Satan is sinless and was to be represented by an unblemished goat?
“Azazel” was to bear the iniquities of the children of Israel unto a land “not inhabited.”
We have just read how Scripture undeniably teaches that Messiah is the only sin bearer.
Therefore, he is the only person that fulfills the type of “azazel.”
But how does Yeshua fulfill being sent to a land not inhabited and let go in the wilderness?
The Scriptures make several clear statements concerning the act of carrying away sin.
John 1:29 – “The next day John seeth Yeshua coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of 'Elohim, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
Hebrews 9:26 – “But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
1 John 3:5 – “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”
Yeshua is the goat that carried away the sins of Israel.
He took them upon himself and “was made to be sin for us” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
Therefore he fulfills the antitypical “azazel.”
There is no need for Satan to bare anyone's sins.
He has his own sins to bare and they will prove to be unbe
arable.The Hebrew for “not inhabited” is “gezerah” meaning “a desert (as separated).”
It comes from the root word “gazar” meaning “to cut down or off.”
Messiah was certainly cut off and separated from not only the land of the living, but from his Father as well.
When Yeshua cried out, “My 'Elohim, my 'Elohim, why hast thou forsaken me?” it was because at that moment he was separated from 'Elohim having taken upon himself the sins of the world.
Sin clearly causes a separation from 'Elohim as Isaiah wrote; “But your iniquities have separated between you and your 'Elohim, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2).
Yeshua' disciples also separated themselves from him by forsaking him and denying him.
Yeshua was even separated by “suffering without the gate” and without the camp (Hebrews 13:11-13).
He was sent into the wilderness of total separation as he bore our sins away.
What about that “fit man” that escorted the goat to the edge of the wilderness?
If the angel of Revelation 20:1 is not the fulfillment, then who is?
Does there even need to be a fulfillment of the fit man?
Since, in either view, there is no fulfillment of the man in verse 28 that burns the carcasses of the bullock and Lord's goat, there need not be a fulfillment to the fit man.
The following is offered as a possible antitype to the fit man.
“Fit” comes from the Hebrew meaning “timely, opportune, at hand.”
Some translations render it, “a timely man,” “a man of opportunity,” or “an appointed man.”
The Scriptures reveal there was a man who was at hand at the right time, appointed by 'Elohim to lead Yeshua to his wilderness separation.
That man was Judas.
Acts 1:16 says Judas was “guide to them that took Yeshua.”
It also says in Matthew 26:24, “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Yeshua was “going” to the wilderness bearing our sins upon him.
Judas was the man appointed to lead and guide Yeshua on that journey into the wilderness of total separation.
Some may object to Yeshua fulfilling “azazel” based on the fact that the Day of Atonement falls in the seventh month between two Feasts that have not been fulfilled yet.
Therefore, the Day of Atonement cannot be totally fulfilled by Messiah.
They reason, therefore, that its future fulfillment must be accomplished by Satan.
Although Yeshua has fulfilled both typical goats, there remains one major aspect of the Day of Atonement that remains unfulfilled.
The antitypical Jubilee trumpet marking the beginning of the Jubilee year (which was typically blown on Atonement Day) has yet to be blown.
When Yeshua returns at the sound of that trumpet to set the captives free from death, the Day of Atonement will see its total fulfillment.
It is the view that Yeshua returns on the Day of Trumpets that has led to the belief that Satan fulfills azazel.
It is reasoned that if the Day of Trumpets depicts Messiah's return and if Tabernacles depicts the Millennium, then there can only be one event in between that depicts the goat sent into the wilderness, the casting of Satan into the bottomless pit.
The truth of the matter is, when Yeshua returns, only one trumpet is blown whereas the Day of Trumpets (plural) involves more than one trumpet.
The Day of Trumpets depicts the beginning of the “Day of the Lord” when the trumpets of Revelation 8 begin to sound.
Yeshua will return at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet which is also the Jubilee trumpet marking the resurrection of the dead (Revelation 11:15-18;1Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thesselonians 4:16).
Another possible objection would be that Yeshua, as azazel, does not fulfill all aspects of the type such as; no one ever actually placed their hands on Yeshua' head to confess the sins upon him; Yeshua died whereas the goat of departure lived on in the wilderness, etc.
As with the fulfillment of other types, Yeshua did not fulfill every aspect exactly.
For example; He could not fulfill the aspect of the High Priest that kills the Lord's goat and, at the same time, be that goat or else he would have had to kill himself (vs.15); He did not have to offer a sin offering for himself as High Priest (vs.11); Yeshua did not confess the sins of Israel upon his own head (vs.21); He did not need to wash his flesh (vs.24); His body was not burned outside the camp (vs.27); He died as our atonement sacrifice on Passover, not the Day of Atonement; His body was not burned as the Passover sacrifice was; Yeshua died at the time of the evening sacrifice and the Passover sacrifice, but not at the time of the morning sacrifice, etc.
The bottom line is this; The Scriptures declare Yeshua to be the ONLY sin-bearer who not only died for the remission of sins, but also the only one to actually take away those sins.
When we view the Lord's goat and azazel as one atonement offering, rather than two separate offerings separated by thousands of years, we can understand and appreciate the symbolic fulfillment more readily.
Yeshua is the perfect fulfillment of the typical atonement sacrifice.
As the Lord's goat his blood cleansed the heavenly sanctuary (Hebrews 9:23) and the Israel of 'Elohim (Leviticus 16:17).
As “azazel” he bore our sins and took them away forever.
Thoughts to ponder?
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 26 2009,16:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 25 2009,21:20) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 26 2009,16:00) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,14:26) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Hi BD:Jesus is both the lamb of God that was sacrificed and also the scapegoat. He willingly gave his life for the sins of the world, and he died, but he has been resurrected from the dead and presented alive before God.
The blood that he shed washes away the sins of all who have obeyed God from creation until his ministry, and all who come to God through him since his ministry. Yes, he forgave sins before his death, but it was based on the fact that he would die for the sins of the people and would be raised again from the dead.
If Jesus was not raised again from the dead, there is no resurrection from the dead because the wages of sin is death which means not only physical death but spiritual separation from God. Jesus obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, therefore, he overcame sin and death. God declared him not guilty since he did not sin and raised him from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Where did you learn that death was spiritual seperation from God.So you are saying that Jesus is the scape goat and the Lamb? But the scapegoat does not die and is pesented ALIVE before God it carries away all the sins of the people without any bloodshed from it.
You said that Jesus bore all the sins on the cross so when he “died” he couldn't further carry sins for you say death was the payment. If death was the payment then their is no further payment for sin nor could he atone for anyone today for atonement does not apply to future sins but If he was not killed as the Quran says then he continues to be the scapegoat until his return for then he is a living Sacrifice
I am a little confused as well on that issue, how id Yeshua the Messiah both the scapegoat as well as the lamb?
I will tell you something:Many years ago God led me to the scriptures about the scapegoat it was before I had ever read the Quran and those scriptures regarding the Scapegoat is what started me thinking about the possibilities of Jesus not being crucified but still capable of atoning and reconciling God with sinners
Then I was led to John the Baptist which while not much is written about, I realized John was baptizing for the remission of Sins so God led me to connect the two pieces because Jesus had said no man born of woman was greater than John the Baptist
which struck me weird because Jesus is born of Woman but anyway it made me focus on their encounter and then it suddenly struck me that John is baptizing for the remission of sins and Jesus wasn't a sinner and was without Sin
so instead of Jesus confessing his sins or being baptized for the remission of his sins(which he did not have)
He was baptized for the remission of the sins of the world in otherwords John placed the sins of all those who believe on the head of Jesus just like Aaron placed all the sins of the people on the scapegoat.
Now after Aaron placed the sins of the people on the head of the goat, the goat was led out to the wilderness and in one verse it even says turned over to Azazel which is a devil
Now when Jesus came up from out of the water he was also led into the wilderness and tempted of the devil
and when he overcame Satan his mission was complete, God further led me to Abraham and the fact that God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice his own son but provided a substitute
Then God led me to study the Quran and when it mentioned that Jesus didn't get killed or crucified I understood how it could be possible. Below are some of those verses:
Genesis 22:12-13 (King James Version)
12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Leviticus 16:7-9But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:9-11And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:20-22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:21-23Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Matthew 4:1-3John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:3-5Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Matthew 11:10-12Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins
, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.
Leviticus 16:20-22Hi BD,
You are not greater than the holy Scriptures.
They tell us of the death and resurrection of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.Wake up
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 26 2009,17:58) Hi BD,
You are not greater than the holy Scriptures.
They tell us of the death and resurrection of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.Wake up
Psalm 911 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust.”3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler[a]
And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.7 A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.9 Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place,
10 No evil shall befall you,
Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling;
11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
12 In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
13 You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.14 “Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,17:35) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 26 2009,16:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 25 2009,21:20) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 26 2009,16:00) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,14:26) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Hi BD:Jesus is both the lamb of God that was sacrificed and also the scapegoat. He willingly gave his life for the sins of the world, and he died, but he has been resurrected from the dead and presented alive before God.
The blood that he shed washes away the sins of all who have obeyed God from creation until his ministry, and all who come to God through him since his ministry. Yes, he forgave sins before his death, but it was based on the fact that he would die for the sins of the people and would be raised again from the dead.
If Jesus was not raised again from the dead, there is no resurrection from the dead because the wages of sin is death which means not only physical death but spiritual separation from God. Jesus obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, therefore, he overcame sin and death. God declared him not guilty since he did not sin and raised him from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Where did you learn that death was spiritual seperation from God.So you are saying that Jesus is the scape goat and the Lamb? But the scapegoat does not die and is pesented ALIVE before God it carries away all the sins of the people without any bloodshed from it.
You said that Jesus bore all the sins on the cross so when he “died” he couldn't further carry sins for you say death was the payment. If death was the payment then their is no further payment for sin nor could he atone for anyone today for atonement does not apply to future sins but If he was not killed as the Quran says then he continues to be the scapegoat until his return for then he is a living Sacrifice
I am a little confused as well on that issue, how id Yeshua the Messiah both the scapegoat as well as the lamb?
I will tell you something:Many years ago God led me to the scriptures about the scapegoat it was before I had ever read the Quran and those scriptures regarding the Scapegoat is what started me thinking about the possibilities of Jesus not being crucified but still capable of atoning and reconciling God with sinners
Then I was led to John the Baptist which while not much is written about, I realized John was baptizing for the remission of Sins so God led me to connect the two pieces because Jesus had said no man born of woman was greater than John the Baptist
which struck me weird because Jesus is born of Woman but anyway it made me focus on their encounter and then it suddenly struck me that John is baptizing for the remission of sins and Jesus wasn't a sinner and was without Sin
so instead of Jesus confessing his sins or being baptized for the remission of his sins(which he did not have)
He was baptized for the remission of the sins of the world in otherwords John placed the sins of all those who believe on the head of Jesus just like Aaron placed all the sins of the people on the scapegoat.
Now after Aaron placed the sins of the people on the head of the goat, the goat was led out to the wilderness and in one verse it even says turned over to Azazel which is a devil
Now when Jesus came up from out of the water he was also led into the wilderness and tempted of the devil
and when he overcame Satan his mission was complete, God further led me to Abraham and the fact that God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice his own son but provided a substitute
Then God led me to study the Quran and when it mentioned that Jesus didn't get killed or crucified I understood how it could be possible. Below are some of those verses:
Genesis 22:12-13 (King James Version)
12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Leviticus 16:7-9But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:9-11And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:20-22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:21-23Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Matthew 4:1-3John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:3-5Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat
thew 11:10-12Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.
Leviticus 16:20-22
I like to know how you came to the conclusion that Christ was not crucified. There are Scriptures that tell us that He did. So are you just going to ignore that? That is what Christianity's most important essence. It is because of Christ's Sacrifice that we now live forever if we believe so. It is a gift from God by Faith in Christ that we receive eternal life.
Not to believe that makes you an outcast IMO.
The new Covenant in
Luke 22:20 ….”This is the cup of the new covenant in My Blood which is shed for you.”
He shed His Blood for us, so we can live. What don't you understand about that?
Luke gives an account of His death.
Also He showed His Hands to Thomas who did not believe that He had risen from the death.
Is the Quran telling you that Christ did not die?
IreneQuote (banana @ Nov. 26 2009,20:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,17:35) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 26 2009,16:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 25 2009,21:20) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 26 2009,16:00) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,14:26) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Hi BD:Jesus is both the lamb of God that was sacrificed and also the scapegoat. He willingly gave his life for the sins of the world, and he died, but he has been resurrected from the dead and presented alive before God.
The blood that he shed washes away the sins of all who have obeyed God from creation until his ministry, and all who come to God through him since his ministry. Yes, he forgave sins before his death, but it was based on the fact that he would die for the sins of the people and would be raised again from the dead.
If Jesus was not raised again from the dead, there is no resurrection from the dead because the wages of sin is death which means not only physical death but spiritual separation from God. Jesus obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, therefore, he overcame sin and death. God declared him not guilty since he did not sin and raised him from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Where did you learn that death was spiritual seperation from God.So you are saying that Jesus is the scape goat and the Lamb? But the scapegoat does not die and is pesented ALIVE before God it carries away all the sins of the people without any bloodshed from it.
You said that Jesus bore all the sins on the cross so when he “died” he couldn't further carry sins for you say death was the payment. If death was the payment then their is no further payment for sin nor could he atone for anyone today for atonement does not apply to future sins but If he was not killed as the Quran says then he continues to be the scapegoat until his return for then he is a living Sacrifice
I am a little confused as well on that issue, how id Yeshua the Messiah both the scapegoat as well as the lamb?
I will tell you something:Many years ago God led me to the scriptures about the scapegoat it was before I had ever read the Quran and those scriptures regarding the Scapegoat is what started me thinking about the possibilities of Jesus not being crucified but still capable of atoning and reconciling God with sinners
Then I was led to John the Baptist which while not much is written about, I realized John was baptizing for the remission of Sins so God led me to connect the two pieces because Jesus had said no man born of woman was greater than John the Baptist
which struck me weird because Jesus is born of Woman but anyway it made me focus on their encounter and then it suddenly struck me that John is baptizing for the remission of sins and Jesus wasn't a sinner and was without Sin
so instead of Jesus confessing his sins or being baptized for the remission of his sins(which he did not have)
He was baptized for the remission of the sins of the world in otherwords John placed the sins of all those who believe on the head of Jesus just like Aaron placed all the sins of the people on the scapegoat.
Now after Aaron placed the sins of the people on the head of the goat, the goat was led out to the wilderness and in one verse it even says turned over to Azazel which is a devil
Now when Jesus came up from out of the water he was also led into the wilderness and tempted of the devil
and when he overcame Satan his mission was complete, God further led me to Abraham and the fact that God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice his own son but provided a substitute
Then God led me to study the Quran and when it mentioned that Jesus didn't get killed or crucified I understood how it could be possible. Below are some of those verses:
Genesis 22:12-13 (King James Version)
12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Leviticus 16:7-9But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:9-11And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:20-22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:21-23Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Matthew 4:1-3John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins
.
Mark 1:3-5Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Matthew 11:10-12Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.
Leviticus 16:20-22
I like to know how you came to the conclusion that Christ was not crucified. There are Scriptures that tell us that He did. So are you just going to ignore that? That is what Christianity's most important essence. It is because of Christ's Sacrifice that we now live forever if we believe so. It is a gift from God by Faith in Christ that we receive eternal life.
Not to believe that makes you an outcast IMO.
The new Covenant in
Luke 22:20 ….”This is the cup of the new covenant in My Blood which is shed for you.”
He shed His Blood for us, so we can live. What don't you understand about that?
Luke gives an account of His death.
Also He showed His Hands to Thomas who did not believe that He had risen from the death.
Is the Quran telling you that Christ did not die?
Irene
Psalm 91Says it best.
How is it you cannot accept that God saved Christ but you easily accept that Christ saved you?
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 25 2009,03:19) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2009,17:05) Question Judaism is emphatic that a person is born innocent – not evil, not good either, but innocent. We are given a clean slate. But we are not born into an innocent world. The world we are born into is one of challenge, difficulty, pain and evil. But all these are merely means to an end: it is through facing challenges that we grow as human beings, through going through difficulty we bring out deeper resources from within, through pain we become stronger
Adam………..I do agree with this, we are born neither good nor evil, but we are born into a world full of evil and good, the evil is pervasive at this time . This world is being used by GOD as a teaching tool to teach us about the effects of both good and evil He even cursed the Ground for (OUR) sake to increase this teaching effect on us all. John said all the is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes the Pride of life, are (FROM) the world. We are born neutral but we don't stay that way. The greater influences of evil in the world began to infect us much like a virus infects a person, starting off slowly until it infects the whole body. Our thinking is effected by the (SPIRIT)(intellect) that is (IN) the world.AS far as Him saying GOD would send the Messiah and show us a better way as He implies , GOD has already done that, Jesus Showed us all a better way of Life How to have a right relationship with our GOD.
Adam……….. again i implore you as a dear brother BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN OF THE JEWS. THEY REJECT JESUS AND THE APOSTLE PAUL. BE CAREFUL BROTHER.
with much love and concern………………..gene
I thank you brother Gene for your concern for me. Yes I am careful in all respects but I am digging through some material of Jewish nature to find truth.peace and love
AdamQuote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,14:26) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Good questions brother Bodhitharta. I do agree that Jesus sacrifice was no requirement for human sins it was invented by the Hellenistic Jew Paul but not Jesus himself. God forgave Israelites sins even without any blood sacrifice. Here is the argument of a Jew for that matter.Is Human Blood Kosher for Sin Atonement?
One of the three main reasons for my conversion to Judaism was over the human sacrifice of Christianity in [light] of the Jewish scriptures (the other two being vicarious-atonement and astrology veneration). Simply put, the Jewish scriptures utterly detest the worship of Jehovah God of Israel through the form of human sacrifice.
“…for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.” – Deuteronomy 12:31 (see also Leviticus 18:21 / Leviticus 20:2-4)
“But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” – Jeremiah 32:34-35
Human sacrifice which was a common practice of worship among the Canaanites, caused the Jewish temple (a place for atonement) to be defiled. In order to convey just how bad the worship of other gods can be Deuteronomy states: “even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods”. According to the prophet Jeremiah, God wants Israel to know that human sacrifice is the furthermost concept from His method of thought – notice the words in red from the book of Jeremiah above.
The question then becomes why would Jehovah-God of Israel who hates human sacrifices send Himself as one, for Himself to be accepted as an vicarious atonement? Notice the prophet Ezekiel's exact wording that would reflect upon vicarious atonement: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” – Ezekiel 18:20
This Hebrew scripture from the prophet Ezekiel is in direct conflict with the later New Testament teaching: “(Jesus) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree…” -I Peter 2:24
Why would the God of Israel forbid the Jews for nearly two millenniums not to human sacrifice and punish them severely when they did, then turn right around and demand that Israel worship Himself as the very thing (a human sacrifice) that he was so against?It seems that Christianity had a Gentile-based subconscious goal of retaining a form of pagan worship of human sacrifices while trying to connect with the God of Israel. In order to accomplish this they would make the animal sacrifices that was pleasing to God, only a type and a shadow (Hebrews 10:1) even though the Jewish scriptures never indicate in the slightest of suggestions that the sacrificial system is only a type of a human sacrifice to come. In fact, according to the Jewish prophecy of scripture, it is even after the Meshiach (messiah) ben David has come that the animal sacrificial system is fully restored to the Jewish people who have been gathered from the corners of the earth back to their ancient homeland in Israel! See Ezekiel 37:24-28 and Ezekiel chapters 40-48.
In the Christian view Jesus' human sacrifice is a death-penalty sacrifice for all types of sin. However, there never was a death-penalty sacrifice within the Jewish scripture, just the death penalty period. There was no type or shadow animal requirement that the sinner could sacrifice under the death-penalty that he / she might be resolved from such sin. So the question then becomes, how is Jesus' human sacrifice a death-penalty antitype when there was no death-penalty type or shadow animal sacrifice to begin with that would allow him to become the antitype?
Christianity's “type and shadow” doctrine doesn't work with the Jewish scriptures when one considers that the blood sacrifice was only required for unintentional sins ( Leviticus 4:27-29 / Numbers15:27-28) and even then if one wishes to get down to the fine specifics of types and shadows, this particular sacrifice of unintentional sin had to be a she-goat and not a male-lamb blood sacrifice as the book of Saint John paints Jesus. So if we run the type and shadow doctrine to its full potential, the Christian human sacrifice (the antitype) could only be applied to unintentional sins and not every type of sins.
The Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) once-a-year offering that Paul refers to in Hebrews 9:7 applied only to Israel as a community and not to the entire Gentile world. How then is Jesus' sacrifice the antitype to such a Israel-only sacrificial-type system (see St. John 1:29) especially when Paul negates Moses' command concerning this ritual to Israel: ” And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year.” – Leviticus 16:34.
As it turns out, even this holy Yom Kippur sacrifice didn't take away death-penalty sins. If it could have David who murdered Uriah the Hittite by proxy wouldn't have wrote of his blood-guilt the following: “Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God… for thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. – Psalms 51:14, 16-17. Under the Christian blood-sacrifice view David could have just waited until the next Yom Kippur offering to become guilt / sin-free. Killing a man because you got his wife pregant? No sweat, just keep it under the wraps until the next holiest day of the year, then your home free? – I think not. The sacrificial system was not a “out of jail free-card”.
Since the Yom Kippur sacrifice was for Israel only are we to understand that according to the Christian view, all the souls of the Gentile world would have continued to be (since the very first Yom Kippur sacrifice) eternally damned if indeed the Jewish nation would have accepted their Christian messiah? Perhaps then, instead of the Church p
ersecuting the Jewish nations for nearly two thousand years as “Christ-killers” they should have been bowing down in thankfulness to the Jews for getting their fellow-Gentile Romans to kill (sacrificed) Jesus?Speaking of which, the Yom Kippur sacrifice was to be carried out by using animal blood sprinkled by the Jewish High Priest of Aaron's clan, on the only provided place – the temple's altar inside the city of Jerusalem. In contrast, the Christian atonement was carried out using human blood, shed by Gentile Roman soldiers, outside the city nowhere near the only provided place -the temple's altar.1 With this in mind, it's easier to spiritually understand why the Christian atonement consisting of human sacrifice carried out by Gentile Romans, outside the Jewish spiritual headquarter, was predisposed to be the foundation of a Gentile religion called Christianity. Paul, being the foundation writer of the New Testament, changing his Jewish name of Saul to Gentile Paul only added to the inevitable.
Following the teaching of Gentile-named Paul (see Hebrews 9:22) the Christian proof-text of Leviticus 17:11 is used to falsely determine that blood was absolutely required for atonement. However, the context of Leviticus 17:10-12 is not at all addressing the issue of atonement for sin. It is addressing the prohibition of blood consumption, period. There is a doctrinal revealing reason why Christian apologists will NEVER quote verses 10 and 12 with Leviticus 17:11.2 To do so would yank the carpet out from under their proof-text. The context of all three verses would be too revealing, therefore the context is purposely hidden by quoting only verse 11 by itself.
The text of Leviticus 17:10-12 is stating the following:
“And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood [subject of context] I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood [subject of context] and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [not the bones or the meat of the animal that the priest can eat but the blood that no man can consume because the blood is for an atonement]. Therefore [this word “therefore” – “Kee” in the Hebrew, connects the previous two verses with the following statement staying inline with the context] I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood [subject of context], neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood [subject of entire context].”
.
Taking into consideration the Torah's explicit and strict prohibition of blood consumption, doesn't Jesus' words, “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you” sound a little anti-Torah? especially since blood consumption was forbidden long before the Law of Moses was given to the Jewish nation (see Genesis 9:4). Yet the New Testament records no one questioning as to why Jehovah of the Torah who was so anti-consumption of blood in giving Moses His laws, would be just the opposite – being very pro-blood consumption – in using spiritual analogies?There are plenty of situations where non-blood atonement was made in the pre-Jesus Hebrew Bible. When Paul states in Hebrews 9:22 “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood” can be taken that not all things in the Law of Moses are purged by blood especially when it comes to atonement for the souls.
Leviticus 5:11 “But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.” This was a non-blood sacrifice that allowed the very poor to offer a sin-offering. Note, if it was blood that was absolutely required for sin and God is no respecter of persons, how then did the very poor get off without typing Jesus with a blood sacrifice of sin? I have yet to get a clear-cut answer from a Christian apologist.
Numbers 31:50 “We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.” Gold is not blood, yet gold was used in this one incident for the Israeli army to make an atonement for their souls. This is along the same line as the charity-atonement. “To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.” – Proverbs 21:3
Numbers 16:46 “And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.” Here incense (not blood) on the altar was used for what the Bible calls an “atonement”.
II Samuel 12:13 “And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.” As Psalms 51:16-17 indicates David did not have to blood-sacrifice in order to get his sins removed, in fact a “Song of David” states in the psalms “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us .” (Psalms 103:12)
I Kings 8:44-50 Solomon's temple prayer-prophecy that was purposely placed in holy script, allowed the Jews in exile (far away from the temple place of blood atonement) to pray towards Jerusalem and the temple when repenting of sins that God would forgive, “all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against”God.Jonah 3:5-10 The people of Nineveh repeated at the words of Jonah and the Bible goes as far as telling us of their reactions of repentance. They covered themselves in sackcloth and sat in ashes and the king even proclaimed a fast. But in all of their expression of repentance guess what was missing in their very deep and sincere outward expression of repentance? – BLOOD! The Bible tells us that God saw their (non-blood) works of repentance and turned his anger from them. The question then becomes, “why would a blood-demanding God turn His anger from them without them blood sacrificing? Notice how this scripture in Jonah correlates in principle with I Kings 8:44-50 above.
Daniel 9:3-19 The Prophet Daniel confessed Israel's sins while in Babylon and asked God to forgive their sins without ever offering any blood sacrifices to God.
The Prophet Hosea prophesied that for “many days” the children of Israel would be without the sacrificial system (Hosea 3:4) pressed Israel to approach God with words (not animal blood) asking God to forgive their sins, and that bulls (for sacrifice) be traded for prayer-confession of the lips! (Hosea 14:1-2) Of this, the prophet Hosea noted that mercy and the knowledge of God is greater in God's eyes than any blood sacrifice offered to Him (Hosea 6:6)!For 70 years the Jewish people were in Babylon where they could not blood-sacrifice at the temple mount in Jerusalem (Jeremiah 25:11-12). Using the actions and prophesies of King Solomon, Prophet Hosea, and Prophet Daniel (listed above) it becomes evident that the entire generation of Jewish people that included the prophet Daniel and the prophet Ezekiel living in Babylon and the prophet Jeremiah living in Egypt, was not without the possibility of having their sins forgiven and atoned for. Not only that particular 70 year Jewish generation but considering the generations that followed that stayed in Babylon and in Egypt for 500 plus years before Jesus' time (St. John 7:35) also was not without a way to have their sins forgiven and atoned for according to Hosea's “many days” prophecy (Hosea3:4 / 14:1-2). Are we to understand that because a Jew was living in exile away from Jerusalem and the temple that he was just out of luck, and would go to hell because
he wasn't able to rid his sins by blood-sacrificing an animal as sin-offering in Jerusalem? Of course not!For Paul or anyone else to suggest that it was or took literal blood that made the atonement possible is dead wrong! Any and all sacrifices (including the blood ones) were only as good as the human heart that brought it (Proverbs 21:27 /Isaiah 1:11-15 / Micah 6:7-8)! Regardless of how bloody the sacrifice was it could be rendered null and void if the human heart was not pure in bringing the sacrifice before the Lord, which is the basis behind any and all sacrifices, not the blood itself!
This reality is not what is conveyed in Hebrews 9:22, just the opposite is! Christian apologists will give lip-service to the “Proverbs 21:27 Jewish Bible reality” but continue in the mindset and concept of Hebrews 9:22 that it was the “literal blood” and only the “literal blood” that atones and allows forgiveness of sins. By doing this they place the state of the human-heart and mind towards God (what should be first and foremost) as only “secondary” to the “literal blood” of the sacrifice!
The fact remains that no Jewish scripture even comes close to indicating a human sacrifice of the coming end-of-days messiah. That theology has to be read into the text using pagan mythology as a guide. Osiris-Dionysus was a mythical god that died and rose on the third day after which a ritual celebration meal of bread and wine symbolized his body and blood.3
The “Price” Factor and the True Meaning of the Word “Atonement”:
Because the New Testament doctrine involves a vicarious atonement through human sacrifice (Hebrews 9:28) the very meaning of “atonement” and “price” seem to merge in the Christian view. The Hebrew word “Kafar” as in “Yom Kipper” (Day of Atonement) means “to atone”. Like the the definition in English it means “to reconcile” and to make amends through reparation. What it doesn't mean is “to pay an owed price” or “payment”. Likewise the Hebrew word for “repentance” (teshuvah) comes from the root word “shuv” meaning “to return” and not “to pay for something owed”! Both “atonement” and “repentance” in the Hebrew Bible has to do with reconciling and returning to God and not paying some sort of debt prices in order to obtain favor with God!
The sacrificial system of the Hebrew Bible was a method of showing God ones earnest devotion in repentance, thankfulness, and praise (blessing towards God by an offering) and not a method by which to pay God an owed debt. The Hebrew Bible never indicates that the sin offerings were a debt payment but rather a way to express a reconciling with God. The view that the sacrificial system was a price-debt payment for ones sins was created to coincide with the “types and shadows of sacrifices” doctrine of the New Testament, something also foreign to the Hebrew Bible.
The Christian “price-required” view of the Law of Moses has helped in giving the Hebrew Bible a bad “justice with no mercy” rap in their own minds. The question I like to ask is, if your spouse or child offends or angers you, do you demand a “price” to be paid before your fellowship with that spouse or child can be returned back to normal? or do you simply demand a change in their behavior that caused their offense in the first place, allowing their natural love for you cause them to be repentant of their offense? When we read God's most famous call to repentance within the Hebrew Bible we see no demand for a “price” to be paid in order for Israel (God's bride / son) to obtain a restored fellowship with God:
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” – II Chronicles 7:14There are several scriptures within the pre-Jesus Hebrew Bible that should help those who have trouble getting passed the “price-blood required-atonement” issue that comes with the standard Christian view. But one must be willing to accept what the Hebrew Bible states on its own revealed word of God foundation without first running it through a New Testament filter for an interpretation.
” Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.” – Palms 40:6
“For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” – Psalms 51:16-17“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.” – Isaiah 1:11
“Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” – Micah 6:7-8
“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” – Hosea 6:6
” To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.” – Proverbs 21:3One must wonder that if Jehovah God of the Hebrew Bible was so dead-set on blood-sacrifices (pun not intended) first and foremost, why would such scriptures above appear even in the slightest of fashions that would indicate that there is something more meaningful to God of the Hebrew Bible than blood sacrifices in how man fellowships with Him and is reconciled to Him after sin?4
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One Final Note:
Referring to the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-36, the New Testament states, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:16-18) However, the prophet Ezekiel has a different view. In his future vision of the temple, “sin offerings” are very present (Ezekiel 40:39 / 42:13 / 43:22 / 45:19-20).The same prophet Ezekiel scriptures that tell us of the “physical” return of the children of Israel back into the “physical” land of their “physical” forefathers are the same scriptures that tell us of the “physical” return of the Jewish temple (Ezekiel 37:21-28). And that “physical temple” is detailed extensively in chapters 40 through 48 of the same book. The covenant along with the temple are to be restored among the people of Israel at the “End of days”. The question then becomes, why doesn't the Gentile-named Paul agree with Jewish named Ezekiel pertaining to the restoration and presence of sin-offerings during the Messianic Age or anytime after Jesus' time?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 25 2009,15:19) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2009,13:35) Quote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2009,10:46) Quote (banana @ Nov. 23 2009,13:02) To all Why concern yourselves with the “original” sin? concern yourselves with your sins.
Georg
The curse that resulted from the original sin is why each of us needs to be born again to free us from being servants of sin.
kerwinThe curse that we inherited from the original sin was death.
As Paul says, “as in Adam all die”. Had God not arranged it this way, then Jesus had to die for each of us individually.Georg
The wages of sin is death. A man who never sins should not die even if he is a child of Adam and Eve. God did not tell them that if they sinned they children would die.
You are exactly right!
If we were to die for our sins, because the wages for sin is death; then why do infants and little children have to die? you know they did not commit any sin yet.
Here is the reason.Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
When Adan sinned it rendered him unclean, and all of his descendants were unclean also, meaning we were cursed with death before we were born.
Here is another scripture that helps understand why we have to die before any sin is committed.Jer 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
“In those days” is a reference to the millennium, “the fathers (Adam) have eaten the sour grape (sinned)” and the children pay the price (death), not so in the millennium.
Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Every body will be responsible for his own action than, and pay the price for sin.
Georg
peacetoall wrote:
Quote but your wrong it clearly says we are all sinners
I see that we are having difficulties exchanging ideas but I am not sure about the details of that situation. I hope that God will resolve them with further communications.
I have not disagreed, except to mention at least one exception, i.e. Jesus, exist to that rule. My argument is that we received a corrupt spirit from our ancestors and that spirit leads us to choose to sin. Jesus will give us a new spirit that will lead us to choose righteousness.
peacetoall wrote:
Quote the law is still here and has been since his doing.
If by God’s word then I agree it is still here.
peacetoall wrote:
Quote however through Jesus ransom sacrifice we are forgiven and we need to only do the works of spirit that comes from faith that, since the works of flesh is not for god nor mans faith with man.
Those who walk according to the Spirit are forgiven but those who do not will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
BD you will never accept anything but your own. you have been shown the message regarding jesus ransom sacrifice and what i did and does for us. there it is plain as day. you choose not to accept it because you are a non beleiver and seem not to care to seek or search for the truth.
I say that because its been presented to you and you ignore. i think i have shown you a handful that say it did and all you do is try to disprove it.
you come to disprove at everything even when presented with gods accurate knowledge. not sure what bible or scriptures you use but i see that you said you want to live for love and worship only god almighty, thats great however theres no need to stop learning or turn a blind eye to things shown as gods truth to certain issues you raise.
Do you not think that it would anger god by you talking the way you do about his sons ransom sacrifice that was Gods own will and jesus does the will of his father.
how can you offer truth or advice if you do not beleive and offer no scriptures to prove your point. when presenting a scripture it needs to convey the message of what your own question is about thats how it works.
when we come here and tell you about the ransom sacrifice of jesus and show you scriptures that say what it did and what it means today for use ,you cannot come back and use a scripture that says to love one another…that does not pertain to the issue regarding the scriptures in gods inspired words that tell you in your face, on paper in the bibl,e that it did. stop trying to disprove things that cannot be disproved, it surely is not making your relationship with god stronger.
to edit, pick and choose and ignore the truth just to make it in your mind ok to go on assuming what you claim to think it means is plain wrong and not benefical to you at all.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2009,02:07) peacetoall wrote: Quote but your wrong it clearly says we are all sinners
I see that we are having difficulties exchanging ideas but I am not sure about the details of that situation. I hope that God will resolve them with further communications.
I have not disagreed, except to mention at least one exception, i.e. Jesus, exist to that rule. My argument is that we received a corrupt spirit from our ancestors and that spirit leads us to choose to sin. Jesus will give us a new spirit that will lead us to choose righteousness.
peacetoall wrote:
Quote the law is still here and has been since his doing.
If by God’s word then I agree it is still here.
peacetoall wrote:
Quote however through Jesus ransom sacrifice we are forgiven and we need to only do the works of spirit that comes from faith that, since the works of flesh is not for god nor mans faith with man.
Those who walk according to the Spirit are forgiven but those who do not will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
kerwin i think we believe the same thing maybe a small difference or misunderstanding of adams sin that made death enter the world and thus as god said all men will die and are sinners thus being handed down that state when it was created or made law.but anyways thats so tiny a thing its not even relevent to any core beliefs really or for argument.
what matters is that jesus fixed that for us by his teaching gods word and his reansom sacrifice and we need to show faith and do the works of spirit since the works and faith or flesh are pointless. to preach and make disciples and to worship the only true god almighty.
Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 27 2009,02:27) BD you will never accept anything but your own. you have been shown the message regarding jesus ransom sacrifice and what i did and does for us. there it is plain as day. you choose not to accept it because you are a non beleiver and seem not to care to seek or search for the truth. I say that because its been presented to you and you ignore. i think i have shown you a handful that say it did and all you do is try to disprove it.
you come to disprove at everything even when presented with gods accurate knowledge. not sure what bible or scriptures you use but i see that you said you want to live for love and worship only god almighty, thats great however theres no need to stop learning or turn a blind eye to things shown as gods truth to certain issues you raise.
Do you not think that it would anger god by you talking the way you do about his sons ransom sacrifice that was Gods own will and jesus does the will of his father.
how can you offer truth or advice if you do not beleive and offer no scriptures to prove your point. when presenting a scripture it needs to convey the message of what your own question is about thats how it works.
when we come here and tell you about the ransom sacrifice of jesus and show you scriptures that say what it did and what it means today for use ,you cannot come back and use a scripture that says to love one another…that does not pertain to the issue regarding the scriptures in gods inspired words that tell you in your face, on paper in the bibl,e that it did. stop trying to disprove things that cannot be disproved, it surely is not making your relationship with god stronger.
to edit, pick and choose and ignore the truth just to make it in your mind ok to go on assuming what you claim to think it means is plain wrong and not benefical to you at all.
I understand the way you feel because you believe that Jesus was killed and crucified but I am revealing something to you that you would have to seek and find.The NT allows for its contents to be corrected because these are Gospels according to what the person recalls and not exact facts there are many differences from writer to writer.
Now, I am saying that God loves Jesus enough to have saved him just like you believe you have salvation through Jesus.
Psalm 118:5-6 (King James Version)
5I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.
6The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
Psalm 118:17-18 (King James Version)
17I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
18The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
I ask you was Jesus hung from a tree or crucified on a cross or a stake?
If this was witnessed perfectly shouldn't there be only one answer?
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 26 2009,21:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 26 2009,14:26) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,14:18) You need to understand the OT. The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
The scapegoat also tokk the sins of the people away without being slaughtered or Sacrificed.T8,
Did Jesus forgive sins before The Cross without blood atonement?
Did John baptize for the remission of sins?
Good questions brother Bodhitharta. I do agree that Jesus sacrifice was no requirement for human sins it was invented by the Hellenistic Jew Paul but not Jesus himself. God forgave Israelites sins even without any blood sacrifice. Here is the argument of a Jew for that matter.Is Human Blood Kosher for Sin Atonement?
One of the three main reasons for my conversion to Judaism was over the human sacrifice of Christianity in [light] of the Jewish scriptures (the other two being vicarious-atonement and astrology veneration). Simply put, the Jewish scriptures utterly detest the worship of Jehovah God of Israel through the form of human sacrifice.
“…for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.” – Deuteronomy 12:31 (see also Leviticus 18:21 / Leviticus 20:2-4)
“But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” – Jeremiah 32:34-35
Human sacrifice which was a common practice of worship among the Canaanites, caused the Jewish temple (a place for atonement) to be defiled. In order to convey just how bad the worship of other gods can be Deuteronomy states: “even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods”. According to the prophet Jeremiah, God wants Israel to know that human sacrifice is the furthermost concept from His method of thought – notice the words in red from the book of Jeremiah above.
The question then becomes why would Jehovah-God of Israel who hates human sacrifices send Himself as one, for Himself to be accepted as an vicarious atonement? Notice the prophet Ezekiel's exact wording that would reflect upon vicarious atonement: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” – Ezekiel 18:20
This Hebrew scripture from the prophet Ezekiel is in direct conflict with the later New Testament teaching: “(Jesus) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree…” -I Peter 2:24
Why would the God of Israel forbid the Jews for nearly two millenniums not to human sacrifice and punish them severely when they did, then turn right around and demand that Israel worship Himself as the very thing (a human sacrifice) that he was so against?It seems that Christianity had a Gentile-based subconscious goal of retaining a form of pagan worship of human sacrifices while trying to connect with the God of Israel. In order to accomplish this they would make the animal sacrifices that was pleasing to God, only a type and a shadow (Hebrews 10:1) even though the Jewish scriptures never indicate in the slightest of suggestions that the sacrificial system is only a type of a human sacrifice to come. In fact, according to the Jewish prophecy of scripture, it is even after the Meshiach (messiah) ben David has come that the animal sacrificial system is fully restored to the Jewish people who have been gathered from the corners of the earth back to their ancient homeland in Israel! See Ezekiel 37:24-28 and Ezekiel chapters 40-48.
In the Christian view Jesus' human sacrifice is a death-penalty sacrifice for all types of sin. However, there never was a death-penalty sacrifice within the Jewish scripture, just the death penalty period. There was no type or shadow animal requirement that the sinner could sacrifice under the death-penalty that he / she might be resolved from such sin. So the question then becomes, how is Jesus' human sacrifice a death-penalty antitype when there was no death-penalty type or shadow animal sacrifice to begin with that would allow him to become the antitype?
Christianity's “type and shadow” doctrine doesn't work with the Jewish scriptures when one considers that the blood sacrifice was only required for unintentional sins ( Leviticus 4:27-29 / Numbers15:27-28) and even then if one wishes to get down to the fine specifics of types and shadows, this particular sacrifice of unintentional sin had to be a she-goat and not a male-lamb blood sacrifice as the book of Saint John paints Jesus. So if we run the type and shadow doctrine to its full potential, the Christian human sacrifice (the antitype) could only be applied to unintentional sins and not every type of sins.
The Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) once-a-year offering that Paul refers to in Hebrews 9:7 applied only to Israel as a community and not to the entire Gentile world. How then is Jesus' sacrifice the antitype to such a Israel-only sacrificial-type system (see St. John 1:29) especially when Paul negates Moses' command concerning this ritual to Israel: ” And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year.” – Leviticus 16:34.
As it turns out, even this holy Yom Kippur sacrifice didn't take away death-penalty sins. If it could have David who murdered Uriah the Hittite by proxy wouldn't have wrote of his blood-guilt the following: “Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God… for thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. – Psalms 51:14, 16-17. Under the Christian blood-sacrifice view David could have just waited until the next Yom Kippur offering to become guilt / sin-free. Killing a man because you got his wife pregant? No sweat, just keep it under the wraps until the next holiest day of the year, then your home free? – I think not. The sacrificial system was not a “out of jail free-card”.
Since the Yom Kippur sacrifice was for Israel only are we to understand that according to the Christian view, all the s
ouls of the Gentile world would have continued to be (since the very first Yom Kippur sacrifice) eternally damned if indeed the Jewish nation would have accepted their Christian messiah? Perhaps then, instead of the Church persecuting the Jewish nations for nearly two thousand years as “Christ-killers” they should have been bowing down in thankfulness to the Jews for getting their fellow-Gentile Romans to kill (sacrificed) Jesus?Speaking of which, the Yom Kippur sacrifice was to be carried out by using animal blood sprinkled by the Jewish High Priest of Aaron's clan, on the only provided place – the temple's altar inside the city of Jerusalem. In contrast, the Christian atonement was carried out using human blood, shed by Gentile Roman soldiers, outside the city nowhere near the only provided place -the temple's altar.1 With this in mind, it's easier to spiritually understand why the Christian atonement consisting of human sacrifice carried out by Gentile Romans, outside the Jewish spiritual headquarter, was predisposed to be the foundation of a Gentile religion called Christianity. Paul, being the foundation writer of the New Testament, changing his Jewish name of Saul to Gentile Paul only added to the inevitable.
Following the teaching of Gentile-named Paul (see Hebrews 9:22) the Christian proof-text of Leviticus 17:11 is used to falsely determine that blood was absolutely required for atonement. However, the context of Leviticus 17:10-12 is not at all addressing the issue of atonement for sin. It is addressing the prohibition of blood consumption, period. There is a doctrinal revealing reason why Christian apologists will NEVER quote verses 10 and 12 with Leviticus 17:11.2 To do so would yank the carpet out from under their proof-text. The context of all three verses would be too revealing, therefore the context is purposely hidden by quoting only verse 11 by itself.
The text of Leviticus 17:10-12 is stating the following:
“And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood [subject of context] I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood [subject of context] and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [not the bones or the meat of the animal that the priest can eat but the blood that no man can consume because the blood is for an atonement]. Therefore [this word “therefore” – “Kee” in the Hebrew, connects the previous two verses with the following statement staying inline with the context] I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood [subject of context], neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood [subject of entire context].”
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Taking into consideration the Torah's explicit and strict prohibition of blood consumption, doesn't Jesus' words, “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you” sound a little anti-Torah? especially since blood consumption was forbidden long before the Law of Moses was given to the Jewish nation (see Genesis 9:4). Yet the New Testament records no one questioning as to why Jehovah of the Torah who was so anti-consumption of blood in giving Moses His laws, would be just the opposite – being very pro-blood consumption – in using spiritual analogies?There are plenty of situations where non-blood atonement was made in the pre-Jesus Hebrew Bible. When Paul states in Hebrews 9:22 “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood” can be taken that not all things in the Law of Moses are purged by blood especially when it comes to atonement for the souls.
Leviticus 5:11 “But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.” This was a non-blood sacrifice that allowed the very poor to offer a sin-offering. Note, if it was blood that was absolutely required for sin and God is no respecter of persons, how then did the very poor get off without typing Jesus with a blood sacrifice of sin? I have yet to get a clear-cut answer from a Christian apologist.
Numbers 31:50 “We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.” Gold is not blood, yet gold was used in this one incident for the Israeli army to make an atonement for their souls. This is along the same line as the charity-atonement. “To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.” – Proverbs 21:3
Numbers 16:46 “And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.” Here incense (not blood) on the altar was used for what the Bible calls an “atonement”.
II Samuel 12:13 “And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.” As Psalms 51:16-17 indicates David did not have to blood-sacrifice in order to get his sins removed, in fact a “Song of David” states in the psalms “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us .” (Psalms 103:12)
I Kings 8:44-50 Solomon's temple prayer-prophecy that was purposely placed in holy script, allowed the Jews in exile (far away from the temple place of blood atonement) to pray towards Jerusalem and the temple when repenting of sins that God would forgive, “all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against”God.Jonah 3:5-10 The people of Nineveh repeated at the words of Jonah and the Bible goes as far as telling us of their reactions of repentance. They covered themselves in sackcloth and sat in ashes and the king even proclaimed a fast. But in all of their expression of repentance guess what was missing in their very deep and sincere outward expression of repentance? – BLOOD! The Bible tells us that God saw their (non-blood) works of repentance and turned his anger from them. The question then becomes, “why would a blood-demanding God turn His anger from them without them blood sacrificing? Notice how this scripture in Jonah correlates in principle with I Kings 8:44-50 above.
Daniel 9:3-19 The Prophet Daniel confessed Israel's sins while in Babylon and asked God to forgive their sins without ever offering any blood sacrifices to God.
The Prophet Hosea prophesied that for “many days” the children of Israel would be without the sacrificial system (Hosea 3:4) pressed Israel to approach God with words (not animal blood) asking God to forgive their sins, and that bulls (for sacrifice) be traded for prayer-confession of the lips! (Hosea 14:1-2) Of this, the prophet Hosea noted that mercy and the knowledge of God is greater in God's eyes than any blood sacrifice offered to Him (Hosea 6:6)!For 70 years the Jewish people were in Babylon where they could not blood-sacrifice at the temple mount in Jerusalem (Jeremiah 25:11-12). Using the actions and prophesies of King Solomon, Prophet Hosea, and Prophet Daniel (listed above) it becomes evident that the entire generation of Jewish people that included the prophet Daniel and the prophet Ezekiel living in Babylon and the prophet Jeremiah living in Egypt, was not without the possibility of having their sins forgiven and atoned for. Not only that particular 70 year Jewish generation but considering the generations that followed that stayed in Babylon and in Egypt for 500 plus years before Jesus' time (St. John 7:35) also was not without a way to have their sins forgiven and atoned
for according to Hosea's “many days” prophecy (Hosea3:4 / 14:1-2). Are we to understand that because a Jew was living in exile away from Jerusalem and the temple that he was just out of luck, and would go to hell because he wasn't able to rid his sins by blood-sacrificing an animal as sin-offering in Jerusalem? Of course not!For Paul or anyone else to suggest that it was or took literal blood that made the atonement possible is dead wrong! Any and all sacrifices (including the blood ones) were only as good as the human heart that brought it (Proverbs 21:27 /Isaiah 1:11-15 / Micah 6:7-8)! Regardless of how bloody the sacrifice was it could be rendered null and void if the human heart was not pure in bringing the sacrifice before the Lord, which is the basis behind any and all sacrifices, not the blood itself!
This reality is not what is conveyed in Hebrews 9:22, just the opposite is! Christian apologists will give lip-service to the “Proverbs 21:27 Jewish Bible reality” but continue in the mindset and concept of Hebrews 9:22 that it was the “literal blood” and only the “literal blood” that atones and allows forgiveness of sins. By doing this they place the state of the human-heart and mind towards God (what should be first and foremost) as only “secondary” to the “literal blood” of the sacrifice!
The fact remains that no Jewish scripture even comes close to indicating a human sacrifice of the coming end-of-days messiah. That theology has to be read into the text using pagan mythology as a guide. Osiris-Dionysus was a mythical god that died and rose on the third day after which a ritual celebration meal of bread and wine symbolized his body and blood.3
The “Price” Factor and the True Meaning of the Word “Atonement”:
Because the New Testament doctrine involves a vicarious atonement through human sacrifice (Hebrews 9:28) the very meaning of “atonement” and “price” seem to merge in the Christian view. The Hebrew word “Kafar” as in “Yom Kipper” (Day of Atonement) means “to atone”. Like the the definition in English it means “to reconcile” and to make amends through reparation. What it doesn't mean is “to pay an owed price” or “payment”. Likewise the Hebrew word for “repentance” (teshuvah) comes from the root word “shuv” meaning “to return” and not “to pay for something owed”! Both “atonement” and “repentance” in the Hebrew Bible has to do with reconciling and returning to God and not paying some sort of debt prices in order to obtain favor with God!
The sacrificial system of the Hebrew Bible was a method of showing God ones earnest devotion in repentance, thankfulness, and praise (blessing towards God by an offering) and not a method by which to pay God an owed debt. The Hebrew Bible never indicates that the sin offerings were a debt payment but rather a way to express a reconciling with God. The view that the sacrificial system was a price-debt payment for ones sins was created to coincide with the “types and shadows of sacrifices” doctrine of the New Testament, something also foreign to the Hebrew Bible.
The Christian “price-required” view of the Law of Moses has helped in giving the Hebrew Bible a bad “justice with no mercy” rap in their own minds. The question I like to ask is, if your spouse or child offends or angers you, do you demand a “price” to be paid before your fellowship with that spouse or child can be returned back to normal? or do you simply demand a change in their behavior that caused their offense in the first place, allowing their natural love for you cause them to be repentant of their offense? When we read God's most famous call to repentance within the Hebrew Bible we see no demand for a “price” to be paid in order for Israel (God's bride / son) to obtain a restored fellowship with God:
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” – II Chronicles 7:14There are several scriptures within the pre-Jesus Hebrew Bible that should help those who have trouble getting passed the “price-blood required-atonement” issue that comes with the standard Christian view. But one must be willing to accept what the Hebrew Bible states on its own revealed word of God foundation without first running it through a New Testament filter for an interpretation.
” Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.” – Palms 40:6
“For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” – Psalms 51:16-17“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.” – Isaiah 1:11
“Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” – Micah 6:7-8
“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” – Hosea 6:6
” To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.” – Proverbs 21:3One must wonder that if Jehovah God of the Hebrew Bible was so dead-set on blood-sacrifices (pun not intended) first and foremost, why would such scriptures above appear even in the slightest of fashions that would indicate that there is something more meaningful to God of the Hebrew Bible than blood sacrifices in how man fellowships with Him and is reconciled to Him after sin?4
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One Final Note:
Referring to the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-36, the New Testament states, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:16-18) However, the prophet Ezekiel has a different view. In his future vision of the temple, “sin offerings” are very present (Ezekiel 40:39 / 42:13 / 43:22 / 45:19-20).The same prophet Ezekiel scriptures that tell us of the “physical” return of the children of Israel back into the “physical” land of their “physical” forefathers are the same scriptures that tell us of the “physical” return of the Jewish temple (Ezekiel 37:21-28). And that “physical temple” is detailed extensively in chapters 40 through 48 of the same book. The covenant along with the temple are to be restored among the people of Israel at the “End of days”. The question then becomes, why doesn't the Gentile-named Paul agree with Jewish named Ezekiel pertaining to the restoration and presence of sin-offerings during the Messianic Age or anytime after Jesus' time?
Excellent post!Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2009,04:18) Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 27 2009,02:27) BD you will never accept anything but your own. you have been shown the message regarding jesus ransom sacrifice and what i did and does for us. there it is plain as day. you choose not to accept it because you are a non beleiver and seem not to care to seek or search for the truth. I say that because its been presented to you and you ignore. i think i have shown you a handful that say it did and all you do is try to disprove it.
you come to disprove at everything even when presented with gods accurate knowledge. not sure what bible or scriptures you use but i see that you said you want to live for love and worship only god almighty, thats great however theres no need to stop learning or turn a blind eye to things shown as gods truth to certain issues you raise.
Do you not think that it would anger god by you talking the way you do about his sons ransom sacrifice that was Gods own will and jesus does the will of his father.
how can you offer truth or advice if you do not beleive and offer no scriptures to prove your point. when presenting a scripture it needs to convey the message of what your own question is about thats how it works.
when we come here and tell you about the ransom sacrifice of jesus and show you scriptures that say what it did and what it means today for use ,you cannot come back and use a scripture that says to love one another…that does not pertain to the issue regarding the scriptures in gods inspired words that tell you in your face, on paper in the bibl,e that it did. stop trying to disprove things that cannot be disproved, it surely is not making your relationship with god stronger.
to edit, pick and choose and ignore the truth just to make it in your mind ok to go on assuming what you claim to think it means is plain wrong and not benefical to you at all.
I understand the way you feel because you believe that Jesus was killed and crucified but I am revealing something to you that you would have to seek and find.The NT allows for its contents to be corrected because these are Gospels according to what the person recalls and not exact facts there are many differences from writer to writer.
Now, I am saying that God loves Jesus enough to have saved him just like you believe you have salvation through Jesus.
Psalm 118:5-6 (King James Version)
5I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.
6The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
Psalm 118:17-18 (King James Version)
17I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
18The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
I ask you was Jesus hung from a tree or crucified on a cross or a stake?
If this was witnessed perfectly shouldn't there be only one answer?
Hi BD,
You are not able to correct scripture.
First you need the Spirit to understand it.
The Son of God died as men do but yet lives.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 27 2009,05:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2009,04:18) Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 27 2009,02:27) BD you will never accept anything but your own. you have been shown the message regarding jesus ransom sacrifice and what i did and does for us. there it is plain as day. you choose not to accept it because you are a non beleiver and seem not to care to seek or search for the truth. I say that because its been presented to you and you ignore. i think i have shown you a handful that say it did and all you do is try to disprove it.
you come to disprove at everything even when presented with gods accurate knowledge. not sure what bible or scriptures you use but i see that you said you want to live for love and worship only god almighty, thats great however theres no need to stop learning or turn a blind eye to things shown as gods truth to certain issues you raise.
Do you not think that it would anger god by you talking the way you do about his sons ransom sacrifice that was Gods own will and jesus does the will of his father.
how can you offer truth or advice if you do not beleive and offer no scriptures to prove your point. when presenting a scripture it needs to convey the message of what your own question is about thats how it works.
when we come here and tell you about the ransom sacrifice of jesus and show you scriptures that say what it did and what it means today for use ,you cannot come back and use a scripture that says to love one another…that does not pertain to the issue regarding the scriptures in gods inspired words that tell you in your face, on paper in the bibl,e that it did. stop trying to disprove things that cannot be disproved, it surely is not making your relationship with god stronger.
to edit, pick and choose and ignore the truth just to make it in your mind ok to go on assuming what you claim to think it means is plain wrong and not benefical to you at all.
I understand the way you feel because you believe that Jesus was killed and crucified but I am revealing something to you that you would have to seek and find.The NT allows for its contents to be corrected because these are Gospels according to what the person recalls and not exact facts there are many differences from writer to writer.
Now, I am saying that God loves Jesus enough to have saved him just like you believe you have salvation through Jesus.
Psalm 118:5-6 (King James Version)
5I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.
6The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
Psalm 118:17-18 (King James Version)
17I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
18The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
I ask you was Jesus hung from a tree or crucified on a cross or a stake?
If this was witnessed perfectly shouldn't there be only one answer?
Hi BD,
You are not able to correct scripture.
First you need the Spirit to understand it.
The Son of God died as men do but yet lives.
Nick,Did Jesus die on a cross or was he hung from a tree?
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Acts 10:38-40The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 5:29-31And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Philippians 2:7-9
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