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Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 25 2009,15:18) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2009,13:35) Quote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,06:44) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2009,10:46) Quote (banana @ Nov. 23 2009,13:02) To all Why concern yourselves with the “original” sin? concern yourselves with your sins.
Georg
The curse that resulted from the original sin is why each of us needs to be born again to free us from being servants of sin.
kerwinThe curse that we inherited from the original sin was death.
As Paul says, “as in Adam all die”. Had God not arranged it this way, then Jesus had to die for each of us individually.Georg
The wages of sin is death. A man who never sins should not die even if he is a child of Adam and Eve. God did not tell them that if they sinned they children would die.
kerwin so what does iomans 5:12,13 mean. tht scripture says it all, how can one reject it? for one its gods word adn it is plain as day and you reject and deny it – that in itself is not faith, and spiritual works & faith is what we have to have to be included in gods kingdom. yet you all try to fight it and argue it for no reason at all. genesis 8:21,22 is good also. people wake up and stop being spiritualy blind, theres no reason for it. hey BD u said man isn't prone too or inclined to do that and god wouldn't do that as you state yet here's your proof.. read it people you need to read it not just question and requestion and ignore. it didn't become a law until adams disobeying and it was given to all not sure why the jewish poster is arguing and then talking about jesus i thought the jews didn't believe christ had come yet,. from what fellow jewish people and the bible states thats what they say. i mean they wanted to stone him for blasphemy yet he never said he was god just that he was gods son and that they should just look at the work he has done thru the power of his father god almighty above yet they caused his murder thru Romans. jesus shed his blood to have god forgive our sins yet we still need faith in jesus and to follow his example , we need to take into heart gods good news the bible and show faith, spiritual faith & works because fleshy works does no good for god. adams sin that caused him and all that follow to be not in the standing of his first plan for us has been corrected from his sacrifice. no imperfect human could have done that, what was needed was a offering that was equal or better than what was originaly created otherwise anyone chould have been able to do that . we need to give god praise for all things are his and he should be the only worshiped and praised.. jesus said go out and preach the good news and make disciples. stay away from unclean things do not worsghip falsely or to idols or mans beliefs/doctrines .
Jesus already showed that he could forgive sins without the cross and also taught likewise?When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 2:4-6No blood shed, God hates the shedding of innocent blood
“ Yet your eyes and your heart are for nothing but your covetousness, For shedding innocent blood, And practicing oppression and violence.”
Jeremiah 22:16-18God hates the shedding of innocent blood and does not want sacrifice
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luke 5:19-21Jesus said before the “cross” it is Faith in God that saves
Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
Proverbs 10:11-13Did you just read that? Do you still not believe the POWER of God. LOVE COVERETH ALL SINS! NO blood required
How long will you trample the word of God?
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luke 7:46-48Believe Jesus and repent (NO BLOOD REQUIRED)
who says all you need to do is believe, that is not enough and the bible states it all over. again all jews i met don't believe jesus even came yet. gods purpose for us was to be imperfect and go through all this are you kidding. gods plans for man was to go forth and be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it and all things on it are in subjection to them. your idea makes no sense why create fake sense of purpose to begin wit hand have created a eden and have a perfect land t olive on and grow things. so he created all this and said it was very good then decided he wants man to suffer and have to earn things for himself thru hardships and woes. god first covenant was with the jew however they lost it dure to not wanting it, so don't think just becasue the hardships they face since practically the begining to now is becasue god wants all mankind to learn. his intervention and words have not changed from the start his purpose has not changed from the start. we were ment to be perfect. thats why it says that the meek shall inherit the world and reside upon it forever. thats the meaning of life. take care of the earth and fill the earth and reside under his kingdom forever.
romans 5:19 and i guarentee there are others BD that without jesus comming here and living out the way it did we would not have our sins forgiven. that has been the plan all along, to love one another that has nothing to do with the only way to beforgiven for all our sins and become rightous to god. clearly there were loving people that were as rightous to god as possible and tried to be, but there actions did not have any afffect on all mankind and sins being forgiven as did god sending his son and doing that for us. you deny when there is no error for denial. it says that in the bible and you know it roman 6:6 BD try to argue that. you seem to be a non beleiver and nothing shown to you will change you.
your scriptures do not defend that issue on christs purpose at all. there were some before jesus that lived for god but none could used for they. you are totally not beleiveing and having faith in jesus as you are supposed to do. jesus taught us to love one another and to prasch and make disciples and to give praise in wroship and to have spiritual faith towards him. that has nothing to do with his purpose here on earth, his life and death as a whole was the thing that gave us forgiveness of sins, we still are not always forgiven we need to repent and do those things tto assure a place in his kingdom. you are playing down jesus life and death by not giving him his credit and having that faith in him. it states in the bible he is the only way it was achieved.
people are so hung up on certain words and are just blind to reading anything written afterwards. he had to come here and do what he did, thats that stop getting stuck on a word. there was no other outcome of christs life, he can pure and perfect and lived it in union with god and thus by his actions and his death are we forgiven, his sacrifice not the actual killing only. it had to be done he knew it would happen, god had tried to tell his people the same messages but it didn't work obviously. we need to show faith in the value if in jesus sacrificing his human life. he prached us gods words and we need to follow. his comming here is not what the faith is all about.
BD. matthew 20:28 if you still deny or try to argue with this scripture then you really don't beleive at all. if light is shed into your heart and you finally see that it is so as i had said, your relationship with god will be ever so stronger.
bod
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
You obviously don't understand the penalty for sin, it is death. Jesus paid that penalty for us by dying in our stead, he made it possible that after our death we can live again by a resurrection.
Georg
Quote (banana @ Nov. 25 2009,16:42) bod Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
You obviously don't understand the penalty for sin, it is death. Jesus paid that penalty for us by dying in our stead, he made it possible that after our death we can live again by a resurrection.
Georg
Then why did Jesus say?I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 5:31-33John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:3-5(No Blood Shed)
bod
Can you accuse Jesus of sin? no one can, and yet he paid the penalty for sin, death; so why did he have to die? He died for our sins so that we may live.
The punishment for disobedience (sin) to God is death. God punishes all sins the same, with death, eternal death; he doesn't have a scale were you spent maybe 5 years in the grave or 10 or 20, you sin, its eternal death.
Jesus came to remove our sins from us, and take them on himself, he “became” a sinner for us, and as all sinners, he had to die. His death freed us from the grave, we all will now be resurrected after our death, Jesus human sinful body, had to remain in the grave, God gave him back his true body, the one he had before he became one of us, his spirit body.
God would not allow for the flesh body of Jesus to decay.Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).
God disposed of the dead body of Jesus, that is why there was no body found.
Georg
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 25 2009,18:18) Quote (banana @ Nov. 25 2009,16:42) bod Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
You obviously don't understand the penalty for sin, it is death. Jesus paid that penalty for us by dying in our stead, he made it possible that after our death we can live again by a resurrection.
Georg
Then why did Jesus say?I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 5:31-33John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:3-5(No Blood Shed)
BD he taught that because thats what his father god almighty wanted to convey. he and his father are in union with a common goal or purpose and they are the same in that aspect. god, before jesus was sent, had tried thru others to communicate what he wanted. again you are fading from jesus's purpose for comming here and why he did what he did or let happen. you have been given scriptures that tell you what you seem to seek yet you will not accept. jesus's teaching are what we need to follow because it is what god wants from us. don't confuse that with his sons ransom sacrifice for ourselves to be again sons in his fathers eyes and he forgiven for sin. we have been given a chance again such as adam had. however adam had communication with god unlike we are able but we now had his son come in flesh as proof with all the works he performed thru his father and now have his good news which is the bible to help us for daily transgression we go thru and to tell us what to do to have ourselves be drawn to that narrow path to life under his kingdom where the rightous will reside.you are right we need to repent and it be true, we need to love and have mercy and faith and spiritual relationship with god and spread his news. do you not inside rejoice so much that one cannot learn things and keep it inside, ou are inclined to speak out. that is why jesus said go out and preach and make disciples. you are continuing to ignore and requestion things that do not need it – you need to stop doing that and accept what it written adn being told to you when you read it. if anything look at all the hate and evil that he knew he was going to receive and that is why we need love and goodness. without jesus those sins would not be forgiven and you need to stop downplayin his ransom for mankid and stop picking and choosing what scriptures you care to soak in. you harm noone but yourself. we all can't try to be teachers. if you learn or are enlightened to new things that is good, noone knows everrything. i have only really wanted a relationship with god the last few months and have prayed to him daily to give me better understanding and knowledge and to be lead in the right direction because without him i am lost and will not be able to undure the stuggles in life alone. i have felt my insides just burst and fell so good and want to learn and talk about it and i have no control over it. i am taking all sides of the stories from different religous aspects and filtering out mans doctrines and interpretaions as i go by finding scriptures that are direct to the topic at hand, that are clear and not off topic or leading away from the core meaning. somewhat like what you are asking now. the whole jesus taught love not bloodshed yet those are two different core things, one is gods will of us and one was jesus purpose t ohav endured thse things for our sake. another topic that is laid out clear and simple to teh point over and over is the trinity. it is not a bible doctrine yet mans and clearly is stated over and over that they are not equal or the same being and one cannot understand since its worded as such but man will use other scriptures not pertaining to or clearly saying the opposite as factual proof yet say its not the best evidence or saying it is so yet still use them. i learn everyday and have from you BD, ive learned to use the bible more and find the scriptures to show you the truth and that has lead me to understand and have greater knowlegde of it. hopefully you pray for it to and see maybe poeple here are what gods way to show you is, just as i have asked for better insight and knowledge and your denial or not understanding has drawn me to read the bible deeper to show you his god news. this is a great example of works with faith. if you have faith the works of talking or preaching is going to follow one cannot know or learn and just keep it inside it will come forth and direct you to spread his word.Peace2all wrote:
Quote Kerwin, so what does Romans 5:12,13 mean?
I stated what Romans 5:12-13 did though I assume that my listener know why each of us has to be born again.
Romans 5:12-13(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
Notice that death entered the world through sin or in other words the wages of sin are death.
Man dies, not because the one man sinned, but because all sin. In other words the man who sins is the man who dies. Jesus, and perhaps some unborn children, being the exception.
Jesus taught us that we must be reborn in spirit to free use from being servants to sin. If we are not freed then we will sin and if we sin the wages are death. We are servants of sin because Adam and Eve chose to sin.
Do you have another answer to the question “Why are we servants of sin?”
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2009,09:05) Peace2all wrote: Quote Kerwin, so what does Romans 5:12,13 mean?
I stated what Romans 5:12-13 did though I assume that my listener know why each of us has to be born again.
Romans 5:12-13(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
Notice that death entered the world through sin or in other words the wages of sin are death.
Man dies, not because the one man sinned, but because all sin. In other words the man who sins is the man who dies. Jesus, and perhaps some unborn children, being the exception.
Jesus taught us that we must be reborn in spirit to free use from being servants to sin. If we are not freed then we will sin and if we sin the wages are death. We are servants of sin because Adam and Eve chose to sin.
Do you have another answer to the question “Why are we servants of sin?”
The wages of sin is death. A man who never sins should not die even if he is a child of Adam and Eve.God did not tell them that if they sinned they children would die.
but your wrong it clearly says we are all sinners. if death entered thru sin then it goes hand in hand, the law is still here and has been since his doing. it will change when gods kingdom from heaven has been established on earth , however through jesus ransom sacrifice we are forgiven and we need to only do the works of spirit that comes from faith that, since the works of flesh is not for god nor mans faith with man.
we are in charge of our own path whether we strive for gods ways or do mans, god had said that mans inclination from youth is evil. it clearly says it was started and handed down to his offspring so i don't know what to tell you. its there scriptually.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2009,09:05) Peace2all wrote: Quote Kerwin, so what does Romans 5:12,13 mean?
I stated what Romans 5:12-13 did though I assume that my listener know why each of us has to be born again.
Romans 5:12-13(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
Notice that death entered the world through sin or in other words the wages of sin are death.
Man dies, not because the one man sinned, but because all sin. In other words the man who sins is the man who dies. Jesus, and perhaps some unborn children, being the exception.
Jesus taught us that we must be reborn in spirit to free use from being servants to sin. If we are not freed then we will sin and if we sin the wages are death. We are servants of sin because Adam and Eve chose to sin.
Do you have another answer to the question “Why are we servants of sin?”
servants of sin question: lets see we can start with romans 3:23-25 – vvery good scriptures / 1 john 5:17 if we choose to live life not in harmony/in gods will, we are in fact living in lawlessness and unrightousness to his eyes. just because adam had made death enter the world and gave it to all. does not mean now that we cannot live as rightous to god as we can. we are forgiven for the past sin that was why jesus did what he did through his fathers command. it gave us again the sheding of that burden of sin. he knows we will never be good through our flesh and seen tht after the flood. we do need to as you say and what i've said also is have faith in jesus and hold dear for his ransom sacrifice for all of us gods “sons”, we are now all one family to god no seperation or people as strangers among ourselves, to do the spiritual things needed to serve him and show him respect and love. true repentence, faith, baptism, spreading his good news and making disciples . he knows we will slip up and has forgiven us he knows our hearts and we cannot decieve him. these things are outlined in the scriptures.Quote (banana @ Nov. 26 2009,00:04) bod Can you accuse Jesus of sin? no one can, and yet he paid the penalty for sin, death; so why did he have to die? He died for our sins so that we may live.
The punishment for disobedience (sin) to God is death. God punishes all sins the same, with death, eternal death; he doesn't have a scale were you spent maybe 5 years in the grave or 10 or 20, you sin, its eternal death.
Jesus came to remove our sins from us, and take them on himself, he “became” a sinner for us, and as all sinners, he had to die. His death freed us from the grave, we all will now be resurrected after our death, Jesus human sinful body, had to remain in the grave, God gave him back his true body, the one he had before he became one of us, his spirit body.
God would not allow for the flesh body of Jesus to decay.Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).
God disposed of the dead body of Jesus, that is why there was no body found.
Georg
That can't be true because Jesus still had his flesh and bones and even stated that he was not a Spirit.Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:38-40Also where do you see anything about Eternal Death?
Eternal death is eternal destruction. This is the fate of the wicked. They shall never have life after the judgement.
Quote (peace2all @ Nov. 26 2009,04:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 25 2009,18:18) Quote (banana @ Nov. 25 2009,16:42) bod Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
You obviously don't understand the penalty for sin, it is death. Jesus paid that penalty for us by dying in our stead, he made it possible that after our death we can live again by a resurrection.
Georg
Then why did Jesus say?I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 5:31-33John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:3-5(No Blood Shed)
BD he taught that because thats what his father god almighty wanted to convey. he and his father are in union with a common goal or purpose and they are the same in that aspect.god, before jesus was sent, had tried thru others to communicate what he wanted. again you are fading from jesus's purpose for comming here and why he did what he did or let happen. you have been given scriptures that tell you what you seem to seek yet you will not accept.
jesus's teaching are what we need to follow because it is what god wants from us. don't confuse that with his sons ransom sacrifice for ourselves to be again sons in his fathers eyes and he forgiven for sin.
we have been given a chance again such as adam had. however adam had communication with god unlike we are able but we now had his son come in flesh as proof with all the works he performed thru his father and now have his good news which is the bible to help us for daily transgression we go thru and to tell us what to do to have ourselves be drawn to that narrow path to life under his kingdom where the rightous will reside.
you are right we need to repent and it be true, we need to love and have mercy and faith and spiritual relationship with god and spread his news. do you not inside rejoice so much that one cannot learn things and keep it inside, ou are inclined to speak out.
that is why jesus said go out and preach and make disciples. you are continuing to ignore and requestion things that do not need it – you need to stop doing that and accept what it written adn being told to you when you read it.
if anything look at all the hate and evil that he knew he was going to receive and that is why we need love and goodness. without jesus those sins would not be forgiven and you need to stop downplayin his ransom for mankid and stop picking and choosing what scriptures you care to soak in.
you harm noone but yourself. we all can't try to be teachers. if you learn or are enlightened to new things that is good, noone knows everrything. i have only really wanted a relationship with god the last few months and have prayed to him daily to give me better understanding and knowledge and to be lead in the right direction because without him i am lost and will not be able to undure the stuggles in life alone.
i have felt my insides just burst and fell so good and want to learn and talk about it and i have no control over it. i am taking all sides of the stories from different religous aspects and filtering out mans doctrines and interpretaions as i go by finding scriptures that are direct to the topic at hand, that are clear and not off topic or leading away from the core meaning.
somewhat like what you are asking now. the whole jesus taught love not bloodshed yet those are two different core things, one is gods will of us and one was jesus purpose t ohav endured thse things for our sake.
another topic that is laid out clear and simple to teh point over and over is the trinity. it is not a bible doctrine yet mans and clearly is stated over and over that they are not equal or the same being and one cannot understand since its worded as such but man will use other scriptures not pertaining to or clearly saying the opposite as factual proof yet say its not the best evidence or saying it is so yet still use them.
i learn everyday and have from you BD, ive learned to use the bible more and find the scriptures to show you the truth and that has lead me to understand and have greater knowlegde of it.
hopefully you pray for it to and see maybe poeple here are what gods way to show you is, just as i have asked for better insight and knowledge and your denial or not understanding has drawn me to read the bible deeper to show you his god news. this is a great example of works with faith.
if you have faith the works of talking or preaching is going to follow one cannot know or learn and just keep it inside it will come forth and direct you to spread his word.
I edited your post, You should space out your writing like I have done for you it will increase the readibility of your posts.Most people will not read your entire post in the format that you have been writing, I myself find your posts very difficult because of the lack of white space.
God willing this message will help you and anyone else who needs to learn how to be more effective in writing.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2009,13:53) Eternal death is eternal destruction. This is the fate of the wicked. They shall never have life after the judgement.
So how is it Jesus paid the price for such a thing? How did he take the place of sinners?You need to understand the OT.
The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.Jesus is called the lamb of God for a reason. It is he who takes away the sin of the world.
As the one who testified to who Jesus was, the Elijah to come, said “Behold the Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sins of the World”. JOHN 1:29
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