- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi acertainchap.
The whole idea that lucifer rebelled is a fairytale myth fabricated by the church.
Lucifer was never God's choir director.He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not [does not stand] in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not” (John 8:44-45).
Lucifer was bad from the beginning. So unless God was a failure at design, which I do ot believe, then Lucifer was just
exactly what God wanted him to be.Tim
Actually satan, the devil, was never really called lucifer.
“He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil” (I John 3:8).
So it sounds like if satan was around before Adam and Eve, and he “sins from the beginning”. Then satan must have committed the original sin.
Tim
Hi ACC,
Genesis is not the beginning.
It is only the beginning of visible creation.
The beginning was before Genesis and God and the Word and the sons of God, including Satan were there.[Gen 6, Jb 1,2,38]
Satan is the god of this world having rebelled before Genesis and taking squatters rights over earth while still having access to heaven.[Jb1,2]
Man was created on an earth superficially ruled by the kingdom of darkness.
Satan quickly deceived man and established his rule in man.
Men began to be controlled by the spirit of the air[Eph2].
God's plan then was to draw men back to Him and his kingdom of light.
First the Law was given as a lamp to men's feet and the Spirit shone in the prophets.
Then the Son of God was sent and in him was the fullness of Deity and light.
Satan killed him but his triumph was short as the many brothers of Christ continued to spread that light.
That light will triumph through many tribulations and those found in Christ will enjoy the eternal victory here as earth is the inheritance of the meek followers of Christ.Hello acertainchap
All things were created;
Col. 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominion, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.”
That includes Lucifer, his original name; means light bringer, or bright morning star.
Ez. 28:14 “Thou art the anointed cherup that covereth; and I have set thee so; thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”
v. 15 “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”Lucifer corrupted himself, that is when he became Satan the Devil, the adversary.
Is. 14:12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”
v. 13 “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.”
v. 14 “I will ascend above the hights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”God does not create evil, but he allows it so we can learn the consequence of it.
The original sin; sin is the transgression of God's Law;1 John 3:4 “Whosoever commiteth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”
Adam and Eve did not brake a law or commandment, since the law had not been given, but they violated a direct command; “do not eat from that tree.”
The penalty is the same, death.Bless you all
Hi IM4truth,
I am sure that I must be missing some deep spiritual meaning to the scriptures.
But EZ 28:14 was speaking about the king of Tyrus.
And Is 14:12 was speaking of the king of Babylon.How did man decide that both were speaking of the fall of satan?
You said ” God does not create evil”
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS” (Isaiah 45:6-7).Tim
What do you make of these?
Isaiah 14:12 (New King James Version)
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!Isaiah 14:13-25 (New King James Version)
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “ All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.”Revelation 20:1-3 (New King James Version)
Satan Bound 1000 Years
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Quote (acertainchap @ June 29 2007,11:30) What do you make of these? Isaiah 14:12 (New King James Version)
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:13-25 (New King James Version)
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “ All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.”Revelation 20:1-3 (New King James Version)
Satan Bound 1000 Years
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Notice that back in verse 4 God says to take up this proverb against the “king of Babylon.” We all know what a proverb is.Next let’s pick up this proverb in verse 10 after all the “trees” (different people which feared the king), are at rest because of the king’s demise, and see if this “Lucifer theory” fits into these verses without doing irreparable damage to the kings English:
“All they shall speak and say unto thee [king of Babylon], Art thou [king of Babylon] also become weak as we? Art thou [king of Babylon] become like unto us [mere mortals and not gods from heaven]. Thy [king of Babylon] pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy [king of Babylon] viols: the worm is spread under thee [king of Babylon], and the worms cover thee [king of Babylon]. How art thou [king of Babylon] fallen from heaven, O Lucifer…”?!?
What is this? How can, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon (made reference to eight time in two sentences), suddenly turn into “Lucifer” in the middle of a sentence? And where are we ever told that “Lucifer” is a proper name for Satan?
This explanation was taken from a paper written by L.Ray Smith.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 29 2007,23:58) acertainchap,June wrote:What do you make of these?
We all know what a proverb is.
Firstly, to be polite in the most polite of manners, you seem to assume too much, as I don't know what the definition of a proverb is. Please enlighten me.
What is this? How can, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon (made reference to eight time in two sentences), suddenly turn into “Lucifer” in the middle of a sentence? And where are we ever told that “Lucifer” is a proper name for Satan?
I will find some verses to support my statement. I do understand where you are coming from, though.
Timothy VIHi acertainchap,
Forgive me, I do assume too much.
Here is a definition from dictionary of the bible.
A proverb is a similitude of a parable.PARABLES AND PROVERBS. Proverbs are brief, memorable sayings that offer ethical direction in specific situations from generation to generation. They are a feature of almost all cultures, historically, as well as today. The proverb is tailor-made for primary oral cultures where, with no system of inscription, what cannot be remembered is lost, but even in contemporary literary cultures new sayings continue to be coined. A parable is a more expansive cousin to the proverb. It is a short narrative fiction that expresses a moral or religious lesson. Like the proverb, parables are memorable and inspire listener participation: applying the parable to situations in one's daily life.
God bless you,
Tim
Hello Chap, Tim and all
Babylon and Tyre are examples; they were two powerful kingdoms, but their pride and self confidence brought about their downfall too. Their legacy is a comparison to Lucifer/Satan. I'm sure you are all familiar with the history of the two kingdoms.
Lucifer was the pinnacle of God's creation. He was one of the original Cherubs.
Solomon was the wisest man on earth.
God is the creator of both worlds, the spiritual, and the physical. You could probably say; Lucifer and Solomon were the cream of the crop, and look how they ended up, all because of bad choices.
Being number one, does have its downside.
What God created was good, even very good, but God does not create robots.
He created us out of love, and he wants our love in return, just as we want our children to love us.
God has given angels, and us, a free will to make choices. Some of the angels and most of us, have made the wrong choices; that translates into doing evil. There is good and evil in all of us, and since God created us that way, I guess you could say, God created evil.
God wants us to recognise what is good and what is evil, so we can make the right choices. Either choice has its reward;Deut. 10:12 “And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul.”
Deut. 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.”God does not force us to choose, but he makes sure we understand the consequences of our choices. God chose Pharaoh, to show the world, through the stubbornness of Pharaoh, his powers.
He used the Assyrians to punish the kingdom of Israel.
He used the Babylonians to punish the kingdom of Judah.
God uses evil in the world to do good, but he does not create evil.
We sometimes have to hurt, punish, our children, for their good.Bless you all
Hi IM42,
The most important choice offered to men is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Seek ye first the kingdom..
You cannot even see the kingdom unless you are reborn from above.
Men are not born naturally as sons of God with any eternal rights
You must be born again of water and the Spirit.Hi Iam4thrth,
You said, “Lucifer was the pinnacle of God's creation. He was one of the original Cherubs.”
So lucifer was the pinnacle of God's creation, he was the best that God could make?
And yet he was a murderer and a sinner from the beginning. A liar, the father of it.Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I don't know why christians insist that our God is a failure. Satan is exactly what God wanted for him to be.
Tim
Quote (acertainchap @ July 04 2007,08:34) Born of water?
Hi ACC,
God makes the way plain.
Jn 3
“5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “
Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by waterHello Tim
Nobody says God is a failure, but God knows the end from the beginning.
God knew he needed a savior for us before he created us.
Jesus knew he would have to die for us before the creation of the world.
Lucifer was created perfect UNTIL iniquity was found in him, that's when he became Satan, a liar and a murderer.
Adam was created very good, but he didn't stay that way.
God knew all the problems we would get into, but because he loves us, he created us anyway.God bless
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 04 2007,13:13) Hello Tim Lucifer was created perfect UNTIL iniquity was found in him, that's when he became Satan, a liar and a murderer.
God bless
Hi Iam4,The word lucifer was only used one time in the entire bible.
And then it was referring to the king of Babylon.Where do you read the rest of this myth? Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. Does the beginning mean something other than the beginning?
If I lived my entire life never telling a lie, and then on my deathbed I said that I was feeling fine when in fact I didn't feel fine, would it be right to say that I was a liar from the beginning?
Tim
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
