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Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 22 2010,22:11) Really Stu? hmmm. No washing machines, cars, couldnt imagine life without them:)
I would already be dead without modern medicine.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2010,22:40) I can't believe that you posted it, t8, but well done. A very brave admission on your part. Stuart
Thanks, but I haven't changed and have always believed this. Maybe what has changed is you?Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 23 2010,09:44) But Stu, science has also caused cruelty to animals (scientific experiments) Human gunie (sp) pigs, Nuclear bombs, Nuclear testing and pollution, medical disasters (Immunisation eg causes Autism and other things), Psychiactric medicine killing brains, etc etc.
There certainly has been cruelty to animals as a result of scientific experimentation. It would be more pleasant to think that it doesn't happen any more, but I fear that is not true.Science may describe the physics of how to build a bomb, but the knowledge is not the same thing as the building of the bomb. The reactions of so many of the Manhattan Project scientists after the war showed that they were caught up in politics and engineering, not science really. The New Zealander Maurice Wilkins who worked with Crick and Watson and won the 1962 Nobel Prize for the structure of DNA was working in that field because he wanted to get away from his wartime work on nuclear weapons and work for life, not death.
Immunisations do not cause autism.
Psychiatric medicines may alter mental states, but I've never heard of any that “kill brains”.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2010,22:43) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2010,22:40) I can't believe that you posted it, t8, but well done. A very brave admission on your part. Stuart
Thanks, but I haven't changed and have always believed this. Maybe what has changed is you?
I think it is brave because you are rejecting the absolute nature of your beliefs. That is a change, from what I have detected in you before.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2010,22:41) Can you name a single atheist who has killed another person in the name of his lack of belief in god?
But atheists kill nevertheless.You could answer your own question though. Do you think that of all killers that some if not many would have a complete disregard for God and faith in God?
The real point is that atheism doesn't make men believe that by blowing people up that there is some kind of reward, rather that by blowing people up, there is no repercussion or judgement. So their crimes would be motivated by hate or revenge rather than a belief that it will lead to a better afterlife. The fact that they don't believe in an afterlife would negate any reason to blow one's self up in the name of atheism. That seems pretty obvious now doesn't it?
Rather, atheism can assist immorality and crime by taking away any eternal judgement for crimes and sin. Men are more likely to commit a crime if they do not have the conviction of God and judgement. Prisons are a testimony to that. Believers often go into prisons to evangelise and there have been plenty of cases where criminals who were converted lived changed lives afterward. You only need to interview believers who live decent lives today and find out where they came from and what they were like before the converted. You might be surprised what you find.
Believers who are in prison should know better, unless they are in there for their faith or wrongly imprisoned. But then it just shows that believers still struggle with sin and immorality too. No one is pretending that they don't. And at times, we can all say “I should have known better”.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2010,22:48) I think it is brave because you are rejecting the absolute nature of your beliefs.
Um no Stu.This is a plain misunderstanding on your part. I am reaffirming it because faith is the evidence of things not seen and I have the evidence. You have no evidence for your faith, that there is no God, so that makes you the one with blind faith.
If it is that easy for you to misunderstand something, then maybe your misunderstanding about God might need to be revised or revisited too.
You might do well to admit your own weakness in interpreting things.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2010,22:57) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2010,22:41) Can you name a single atheist who has killed another person in the name of his lack of belief in god?
But atheists kill nevertheless.You could answer your own question though. Do you think that of all killers that some if not many would have a complete disregard for God and faith in God?
The real point is that atheism doesn't make men believe that by blowing people up that there is some kind of reward, rather that by blowing people up, there is no repercussion or judgement. So their crimes would be motivated by hate or revenge rather than a belief that it will lead to a better afterlife. The fact that they don't believe in an afterlife would negate any reason to blow one's self up in the name of atheism. That seems pretty obvious now doesn't it?
Rather, atheism can assist immorality and crime by taking away any eternal judgement for crimes and sin. Men are more likely to commit a crime if they do not have the conviction of God and judgement. Prisons are a testimony to that. Believers often go into prisons to evangelise and there have been plenty of cases where criminals who were converted lived changed lives afterward. You only need to interview believers who live decent lives today and find out where they came from and what they were like before the converted. You might be surprised what you find.
Believers who are in prison should know better, unless they are in there for their faith or wrongly imprisoned. But then it just shows that believers still struggle with sin and immorality too. No one is pretending that they don't. And at times, we can all say “I should have known better”.
I don't think fear of god comes into it. Most homicides are domestic, and happen when the red mist descends, a time when little or no rational thought is given for consequences.The US population reports a rate of atheism of around 12%, one of the lowest in the developed world. Yet they have one of the highest imprisonment rates and an extreme level of gun homicide. Although there is a 12% proportion of atheists at large, the prison population of atheists runs at 0.23%. Even at a massive rate of conversions that is still overwhelmingly evidence against there being a practical limit on violent behaviour by christians.
The story is mainly one of theist murderers. Where do these statistics leave your argument that fear of judgment puts the reigns on violent behaviour?
Can you name a person who murdered because he thought there would be no divine judgment to worry about? I can name one such person.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2010,23:06) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2010,22:48) I think it is brave because you are rejecting the absolute nature of your beliefs.
Um no Stu.This is a plain misunderstanding on your part. I am reaffirming it because faith is the evidence of things not seen and I have the evidence. You have no evidence for your faith, that there is no God, so that makes you the one with blind faith.
If it is that easy for you to misunderstand something, then maybe your misunderstanding about God might need to be revised or revisited too.
You might do well to admit your own weakness in interpreting things.
So that is one misunderstanding each then?Stuart
Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 23 2010,11:44) None of my music
(at the moment that is Paramore and Ladyhawke but its a religeous site so I cant say things like this up in believers place
Completly off topic I apologize but I want to take back this post! I would hope no-one will listen to this music, its actually really depressing. In the bin it has gone. Pity I cant do the same with some of my ridiculous posts:) Just been a bit lost lately. Like we all get.Quote (Stu @ Mar. 21 2010,08:12) What god? I see, hear, taste, feel, smell, detect with microscopes, telescopes, scanning tunneling electron microscopes, or even feel with subconscious gut reaction, NO GODS!
Show us using a telescope, microscope, or other finite instrument, the alternative “something” or “nothing” that caused the universe.Can't wait to see what your evidence is.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 24 2010,17:24) I don't think fear of god comes into it. Most homicides are domestic, and happen when the red mist descends, a time when little or no rational thought is given for consequences. The US population reports a rate of atheism of around 12%, one of the lowest in the developed world. Yet they have one of the highest imprisonment rates and an extreme level of gun homicide. Although there is a 12% proportion of atheists at large, the prison population of atheists runs at 0.23%. Even at a massive rate of conversions that is still overwhelmingly evidence against there being a practical limit on violent behaviour by christians.
The story is mainly one of theist murderers. Where do these statistics leave your argument that fear of judgment puts the reigns on violent behaviour?
Can you name a person who murdered because he thought there would be no divine judgment to worry about? I can name one such person.
Stuart
Seriously Stu, ask yourself this question. How many people in US prisons have a deep faith in YHWH? I would say, not many. It appears to me on the outset that the reason the US has a high crime rate is more to do with the high number of illegal aliens (non-extra-terrestrial) in the US. If you can't legally work, then surely crime becomes a stronger option. Also, the crime rate among afro-americans is proportionately higher. So it appears to be a racial thing for whatever reasons.In New Zealand for example, (as you are probably aware), Māori make up 14 percent of the general population and 51 percent of the prison population. These gaps are widening, and not narrowing too.
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/news-an….ri.htmlIf you were to go into a New Zeland prison, how many people do you think would have a strong faith in YHWH, (minus those who converted in prison)? I bet it wouldn't be high. I mean if I went into a prison, I would expect that a high number of them wouldn't care much about God, people, and the law. Prove me wrong and show me some stats that there are a high number in prisons that are considered Christian and love God.
=======================
FYI
Something like 27% of the entire prison population in America are illegal aliens and yet they constitute about 4-5% of the U.S. population.
http://www.cis.org/ImmigrantGangsAnnounceIt is quite common for crime in American cities to be highly concentrated in a few, often economically disadvantaged areas. For example, San Mateo County, California had a population of approximately 707,000 and 17 homicides in 2001. 6 of these 17 homicides took place in poor, largely African and Hispanic American East Palo Alto, which had a population of roughly 30,000. So, while East Palo Alto accounted for a mere 4.2% of the population, about one-third of the homicides took place there.
Wikipedia &
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonl….7185048The racial composition of the US population as of 2008 was 79.79% White American (65.60% non-Hispanic and 14.19% Hispanic), 12.84% African American (12.22% non-Hispanic and 0.62% Hispanic), 4.45% Asian American (4.35% non-Hispanic and 0.10% Hispanic), 1.01% American Indian or Alaska Native (0.76% non-Hispanic and 0.25% Hispanic), 0.18% Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander American (0.14% non-Hispanic and 0.04% Hispanic), and 1.69% Multiracial American (1.64% non-Hispanic and 0.05% Hispanic). 15.25% of the total US population identified their ethnicity as Hispanic. The racial composition of the US prison and jail population as of 2008 was 33.44% White American (non-Hispanic), 40.21% African American (non-Hispanic), 20.29% Hispanic, and 6.06% Other (American Indian, Alaska Native, Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander American, and Multiracial American).
WikipediaActually studies have shown that growing up without a fathers influence has more to do with a life of crime then what race you are. Unfortunately the welfare system here rewards having children as long as there is no man around. Also unfortunate is that minorities have suffered from this the most.
My opinion – Wm
Startling Statistics
Results of a recent Men Against Domestic Violence Survey indicate that:http://www.geocities.com/ethnicbaby/FamilyPar…
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come fromfatherless homes.75% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes.
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes.
70% of juveniles in state operated institutions come from fatherless homes.
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in fatherless homes.
80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
These statistics translate to mean that children from a fatherless home are:
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
9 times more likely to drop out of high school
10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
9 times more likely to end up in state operated institutions
20 times more likely to end up in prison
10 times more likely to commit rape … and
32 times more likely to run away from home
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2010,13:26) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 21 2010,08:12) What god? I see, hear, taste, feel, smell, detect with microscopes, telescopes, scanning tunneling electron microscopes, or even feel with subconscious gut reaction, NO GODS!
Show us using a telescope, microscope, or other finite instrument, the alternative “something” or “nothing” that caused the universe.Can't wait to see what your evidence is.
It is not me who is claiming there WAS a cause.You must have me confused with someone else.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2010,14:03) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 24 2010,17:24) I don't think fear of god comes into it. Most homicides are domestic, and happen when the red mist descends, a time when little or no rational thought is given for consequences. The US population reports a rate of atheism of around 12%, one of the lowest in the developed world. Yet they have one of the highest imprisonment rates and an extreme level of gun homicide. Although there is a 12% proportion of atheists at large, the prison population of atheists runs at 0.23%. Even at a massive rate of conversions that is still overwhelmingly evidence against there being a practical limit on violent behaviour by christians.
The story is mainly one of theist murderers. Where do these statistics leave your argument that fear of judgment puts the reigns on violent behaviour?
Can you name a person who murdered because he thought there would be no divine judgment to worry about? I can name one such person.
Stuart
Seriously Stu, ask yourself this question. How many people in US prisons have a deep faith in YHWH? I would say, not many. It appears to me on the outset that the reason the US has a high crime rate is more to do with the high number of illegal aliens (non-extra-terrestrial) in the US. If you can't legally work, then surely crime becomes a stronger option. Also, the crime rate among afro-americans is proportionately higher. So it appears to be a racial thing for whatever reasons.In New Zealand for example, (as you are probably aware), Māori make up 14 percent of the general population and 51 percent of the prison population. These gaps are widening, and not narrowing too.
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/news-an….ri.htmlIf you were to go into a New Zeland prison, how many people do you think would have a strong faith in YHWH, (minus those who converted in prison)? I bet it wouldn't be high. I mean if I went into a prison, I would expect that a high number of them wouldn't care much about God, people, and the law. Prove me wrong and show me some stats that there are a high number in prisons that are considered Christian and love God.
=======================
FYI
Something like 27% of the entire prison population in America are illegal aliens and yet they constitute about 4-5% of the U.S. population.
http://www.cis.org/ImmigrantGangsAnnounceIt is quite common for crime in American cities to be highly concentrated in a few, often economically disadvantaged areas. For example, San Mateo County, California had a population of approximately 707,000 and 17 homicides in 2001. 6 of these 17 homicides took place in poor, largely African and Hispanic American East Palo Alto, which had a population of roughly 30,000. So, while East Palo Alto accounted for a mere 4.2% of the population, about one-third of the homicides took place there.
Wikipedia &
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonl….7185048The racial composition of the US population as of 2008 was 79.79% White American (65.60% non-Hispanic and 14.19% Hispanic), 12.84% African American (12.22% non-Hispanic and 0.62% Hispanic), 4.45% Asian American (4.35% non-Hispanic and 0.10% Hispanic), 1.01% American Indian or Alaska Native (0.76% non-Hispanic and 0.25% Hispanic), 0.18% Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander American (0.14% non-Hispanic and 0.04% Hispanic), and 1.69% Multiracial American (1.64% non-Hispanic and 0.05% Hispanic). 15.25% of the total US population identified their ethnicity as Hispanic. The racial composition of the US prison and jail population as of 2008 was 33.44% White American (non-Hispanic), 40.21% African American (non-Hispanic), 20.29% Hispanic, and 6.06% Other (American Indian, Alaska Native, Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander American, and Multiracial American).
Wikipedia
It remains true that the vast majority of US crime is committed by god believers who are US citizens. Combining our statistics that would be about 73% of all US imprisonable crime.You are now trying to qualify it with the “no true Scotsman fallacy”
by suggesting that if they are criminals then their interest in god can't be very strong.Maybe they think they can be forgiven, and therefore they are only one repentance away from heaven at any stage.
I don't know what fantasy story they actually give. The point of the whole thing is that christian belief in the threat of judgment is not stopping these criminals from breaking the law, despite what you claimed.
Stuart
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 25 2010,15:01) Startling Statistics
Results of a recent Men Against Domestic Violence Survey indicate that:http://www.geocities.com/ethnicbaby/FamilyPar…
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come fromfatherless homes.75% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes.
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes.
70% of juveniles in state operated institutions come from fatherless homes.
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in fatherless homes.
80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
These statistics translate to mean that children from a fatherless home are:
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
9 times more likely to drop out of high school
10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
9 times more likely to end up in state operated institutions
20 times more likely to end up in prison
10 times more likely to commit rape … and
32 times more likely to run away from home
Your reference didn't work when I tried it.I assume if they are legitimate, these statistics include cases where the father died, leaving the mother to raise the children.
Does it demonstrate a causal relationship, or are both the lack of present fathers and the antisocial behaviours caused by some other factor?
Stuart
Stu,
Here are the same stats with the sources:Statistics about fathers from http://fathersforlife.org/divorce/chldrndiv.htm:
• 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes.
o
• 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
• 85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes.
o [Center for Disease Control]
• 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes.
o [Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14 p. 403-26]
• 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes.
o [National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools]
• 70% of juveniles in state operated institutions come from fatherless homes
o
• 85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home.
o [Fulton County Georgia Jail Populations and Texas Dept. of Corrections, 1992]
• Nearly 2 of every 5 children in America do not live with their fathers.
o [US News and World Report, February 27, 1995, p.39]I cannot testify to the above numbers, but my brother-in-law has been doing foster care for years and everything I've seen firsthand support them.
Wm
Quote It remains true that the vast majority of US crime is committed by god believers who are US citizens. Combining our statistics that would be about 73% of all US imprisonable crime. These stats are lacking Stuart, for one who places everything under a microscope you are not really looking close enough.
First who took the census, what questions were asked, when were they asked, what qualifies an individual as a christian in the prison system. Even gang members are known to kiss the cross, and swear to god or on their mother's grave. Too many varibles unanswered.
This also might come down to having love in their lives also, many can grow without feeling love or felt like they were loved, love is so powerful it can either do harm or good, it is the most powerful emotion one has. This info will be of no use to you though Stuart, for love is something that is like faith, blind to you.
ugh uhg (take care in monkey language)
Quote (princess of the king @ Mar. 26 2010,13:14) Quote It remains true that the vast majority of US crime is committed by god believers who are US citizens. Combining our statistics that would be about 73% of all US imprisonable crime. These stats are lacking Stuart, for one who places everything under a microscope you are not really looking close enough.
First who took the census, what questions were asked, when were they asked, what qualifies an individual as a christian in the prison system. Even gang members are known to kiss the cross, and swear to god or on their mother's grave. Too many varibles unanswered.
This also might come down to having love in their lives also, many can grow without feeling love or felt like they were loved, love is so powerful it can either do harm or good, it is the most powerful emotion one has. This info will be of no use to you though Stuart, for love is something that is like faith, blind to you.
ugh uhg (take care in monkey language)
I think this is simpler than you are making out. t8 claimed that god belief would put the reigns on criminal activity and atheists, who have no threats of supernatural punishment would feel free to offend in the absence of any divine thread.The statistics for the US clearly show that the opposite is true, for whatever reasons.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 25 2010,21:54) Show us using a telescope, microscope, or other finite instrument, the alternative “something” or “nothing” that caused the universe. Can't wait to see what your evidence is.[/quote]
It is not me who is claiming there WAS a cause.You must have me confused with someone else.
Stuart
Is this the closest confession we will get from you that you have absolutely no idea about the beginning?If so, then great. You do not know, therefore your comments on this subject are meaningless speculation.
Thank you.
The end.
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