Only Irene and Kathi may post here

[Lightenup]

Hello,
Only Kathi and Irene may post here.

Thank you!

[Lightenup]

Irene,
You have asked me this:

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Kathi! What do I believe that is wrong? Yes, I believe according to Scriptures that Jehovah is Jesus Fathers name ALONE…. Is that what you mean??? Irene

For starters, you believe that 'firstborn' means 'first created' which it does not.

Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi!  
Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

Rev 3:14 καὶ τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς ἐν Λαοδικείᾳ ἐκκλησίας γράψον τάδε λέγει ὁ ἀμήν ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστὸς καὶ ἀληθινός ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ  

Jesus is the first of all the creation of God…Irene

[Lightenup]

Irene,
You write firstborn but then you try to say that it is first created. The reason you give is Rev 3:14 which has the word arche' which you say means 'first' but it really means 'ruler' here.

NIV
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Jesus is not the first of all the creation of God, He is the firstborn OVER all creation which He and the Father created.
Kathi

[Pastry]

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NIV “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Kathi!!  The King James version of the bible is closer to the original translation of the Bible, then the NIV is.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

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You write firstborn but then you try to say that it is first created.  The reason you give is Rev 3:14 which has the word arche' which you say means 'first' but it really means 'ruler' here. NIV

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation…Col. 1:15

And He is also the beginning of the creation of God…. firstborn is in Col. and beginning is in Rev.nothing wrong with that….it doesn't say over all creation….it says that He us the firstborn OF ALL CREATION….

Col 2:8   Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.  

If you are going to start to accuse me of this Scripture or some like it, I am done with debating you….. That is not what a Christians should do….either stop, or I will stop….get it Kathi….

[Lightenup]

Irene,

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If you are going to start to accuse me of this Scripture or some like it, I am done with debating you….. That is not what a Christians should do….either stop, or I will stop….get it Kathi….

Now, that sounds like a threat to me that says “If you are going to disagree with me, well then that is not what Christians should do and if you keep disagreeing with me then I won't talk to you.”

Irene, Christians disagree, just look at the two translations here.  The NIV uses the word 'ruler' and the KJV uses the word 'beginning.'  I didn't make up nor follow traditions to say that Jesus is the ruler of the creation of God.  The Bible tells us that and I have shown you two verses to support that.  The word arche' that is translated as 'beginning' and also 'ruler' can be translated either way without one being right or wrong.  Which way is the intended translation for this particular passage?  I favor the translation of 'ruler' over the translation of 'beginning.'  The author did not mean either/or, he intended one meaning of the word and we have to look at the options and discern and pray.

Do you agree that Jesus is the ruler of God's creation or not?  If you say 'yes' then the word 'ruler' is a very possible meaning.  If you can show me clearly that Jesus is not the ruler of God's creation then the word 'ruler' is not a very possible translation.  So let's start there.

Do you agree that Jesus is the ruler of God's creation or not?  If not, please use scripture and not personal accusations to defend your position.

Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi!  I will not use the NIV of Bible… Can we agree to use the King James version of the Bible????Irene

[Lightenup]

Irene,
I will agree to consider the KJV but also the other translations, not the KJV only. If the KJV is correct then the original language should prove that out. We don't need to be afraid of looking at newer translations…they are translated from older manuscripts which are more reliable. The closer the manuscript is to the event, the more reliable it is. Manuscripts that are older than the one that the KJV was translated from were found after the KJV was written and so we need to face that fact, Irene. We can't close our eyes to that if we want to fairly look at the word of God. A bias is going to limit this discussion and can keep us from considering other possibilities.

So, Irene, is Jesus the ruler of the creation of God, why or why not using scriptures for your defense?

Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi!  First Jesus did not ruler yet.  He will be ruler in the Kingdom to come…. In the Millennium…The first time Jesus came to die for us, the second time He will come to rule and set all things straight…. Rev. 19:13-16 tells us so…..He will smite the nations with the wrath God….only the truth will be taught by Jesus and his Saints. Some believe Jesus is getting all His Saints ready….
Right on there is a disagreement with the NIV and the KJV, so therefore how can we come to an understanding of which translation is closer to the original transcript.  The newer transcripts Georg and I have found to be so much different then the KJV… We have one and never use it because of it….We understand that the KJV is closer to the original then the newer versions…. That is why I rather use and am using the KJV….Irene

[Lightenup]

Irene,
Here the scriptures say that Jesus had all power when He was resurrected:

16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

All power means all power…in heaven and earth. He rules now, He still has enemies but that doesn't mean He doesn't rule.

It is good that you see that the KJV is much different than the newer translations but there is a reason for this. The newer translations go by an earlier manuscript which is more accurate. The closer the manuscript is to the events in which it speaks about, the more reliable it is. So adjust your view accordingly on this. You have been mislead about the KJV being closer to the original. It is not so.

Modern Bible Versions

Recent developments in archaeology and Biblical scholarship have made possible a number of modern, more accurate English translations of the scriptures. These newer versions are translated from the best available ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, rather than from the King James version or the Latin Vulgate.

Although the newer translations are believed to be more accurate than the KJV, the differences are minor. No significant changes of belief or interpretation would result from the many minor corrections. The main advantage of the modern translations is that they are written in modern English so the reader will not be mystified or misled by the archaic English of the KJV. The mainstream modern Bible versions have been translated by teams of devout Bible scholars who have prayerfully done their very best to convey the true meaning of the ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts to the modern reader. These modern translations have been adopted by many churches, both Protestant and Catholic, for use in worship.

It is often pointed out that modern translations omit a few of the verses found in the KJV, and this is sometimes believed to be an attempt to distort the Bible's teachings. However, the reason is that certain verses are not found in the oldest and best Bible manuscripts. Thus, they are omitted to accurately preserve the original Bible text. (The chapter and verse numbers were added to the Bible in the Middle Ages; they were not part of the original Bible manuscripts. Thus, an omitted verse does not mean that something was omitted from the original texts.)

Some of these extra verses were added to certain manuscript copies as margin notes or as prayers for use in public worship. Those manuscripts were then copied and recopied without making it clear that the extra verses were later additions. The most famous example is the doxology, “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.” that the KJV adds to the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:13. That phrase is not found is any of the oldest manuscripts of Matthew.

Another objection to some modern versions, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) and Today's New International Version (TNIV), is the use of gender-inclusive language. The issue arises because English lacks a common gender third person singular pronoun. Language that applies equally to men and women in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts has traditionally been translated as “he” or “him” in English Bibles. However, that can leave the mistaken impression that a verse applies only to men. Such verses have been phrased in some modern translations to accurately convey the gender-inclusive sense of the original manuscripts. The KJV translates John 13:20 as, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” The NRSV changes the “he” to “whoever” to show that the original text applied equally to men and women, but the “him” that applies to God is left as masculine: “Very truly, I tell you, whoever receives one whom I send receives me; and whoever receives me receives him who sent me.”

It is also traditional in English to use masculine gender as a generic form to include both sexes. So, Romans 3:28 has traditionally been translated into English as “a man is justified by faith.” However, the original Greek word, anthropos, means “human being” and applies equally to both sexes. So, the NRSV and TNIV have translated this verse as “a person is justified by faith” to accurately reflect the inclusive nature of the original Greek word.

Publishers of gender-inclusive Bibles are quick to point out that these are not “politically correct” or “feminist” Bibles. They have used gender-inclusive language only where it would have been understood that way in the original Hebrew and Greek languages.

from here: http://www.twopaths.com/faq_kjv.htm

Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi!   Jesus is in Heaven right now seated at the right hand of His father.  Jesus will begin His rule of the Kingdom when He returns….. Having power and ruling is two different things to me….
Now about he different versions of the Bible … I looked on the Blue letter Bible site, and looked up some other versions.  I was rather surprised to find that most I looked at Rev. 3:14 is translated the same way then the KJ is….

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.  

English Standard Version (ESV)
Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.  

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [fn]Beginning of the creation of God, says this:  

Webster's Bible (WEB)
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Hebrew Names Version (HNV)
Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

New King James Version (NKJV)
Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans [fn] write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

New Living Translation (NLT)
Rev 3:14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning [fn] of God's new creation:

Darby Translation (DBY)  
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

[Lightenup]

Hi Irene,
you said:

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Jesus is in Heaven right now seated at the right hand of His father. Jesus will begin His rule of the Kingdom when He returns….. Having power and ruling is two different things to me….

These verses seem to tell us differently, Jesus reigns in His kingdom now and will reign in a fuller sense when He returns and abolishes all rule and authority:

Col 2:8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

1 Cor 15: 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Irene,
Here are more translations of Rev 3:14:

New International Version (©1984)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

International Standard Version (©2008)
“To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
“To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:

Bible in Basic English
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness, the head of God's new order:

Weymouth New Testament
“And to the minister of the Church at Laodicea write as follows: “'This is what the Amen says–the true and faithful witness, the Beginning and Lord of God's Creation.

World English Bible
“To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Young's Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of God;

Kathi

[Lightenup]

So, what we have are several translations that translate Rev 3:14 as the 'beginning of the creation of God' and several that imply a rulership or originator.

Reading Barnes' Notes about it may be helpful to you:
Barnes' Notes on the Bible

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write – See the notes on Revelation 1:20.

These things saith the Amen – Referring, as is the case in every epistle, to some attribute of the speaker adapted to impress their minds, or to give special force to what he was about to say to that particular church. Laodicea was characterized by lukewarmness, and the reference to the fact that he who was about to address them was the “Amen” – that is, was characterized by the simple earnestness and sincerity denoted by that word – was eminently suited to make an impression on the minds of such a people. The word “Amen” means “true,” “certain,” “faithful”; and, as used here, it means that he to whom it is applied is eminently true and faithful. What he affirms is true; what he promises or threatens is certain. Himself characterized by sincerity and truth (notes on 2 Corinthians 1:20), he can look with approbation only on the same thing in others: and hence he looks with displeasure on the lukewarmness which, from its very nature, always approximates insincerity. This was an attribute, therefore, every way appropriate to be referred to in addressing a lukewarm church.

The faithful and true witness – This is presenting the idea implied in the word “Amen” in a more complete form, but substantially the same thing is referred to. He is a witness for God and his truth, and he can approve of nothing which the God of truth would not approve. See the notes on Revelation 1:5.

The beginning of the creation of God – This expression is a very important one in regard to the rank and dignity of the Saviour, and, like all similar expressions respecting him, its meaning has been much controverted. Compare the notes on Colossians 1:15. The phrase used here is susceptible, properly, of only one of the following significations, namely, either:

(a) that he was the beginning of the creation in the sense that he caused the universe to begin to exist – that is, that he was the author of all things; or.

(b) that he was the first created being; or.

 that he holds the primacy over all, and is at the head of the universe.

It is not necessary to examine any other proposed interpretations, for the only other senses supposed to be conveyed by the words, that he is the beginning of the creation in the sense I that he rose from the dead as the first-fruits of them that sleep, or that he is the head of the spiritual creation of God, axe so foreign to the natural meaning of the words as to need no special refutation. As to the three significations suggested above, it may be observed, that the first one – that he is the author of the creation, and in that sense the beginning – though expressing a scriptural doctrine John 1:3; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16, is not in accordance with the proper meaning of the word used here – ἀρχὴ archē. The word properly refers to the “commencement” of a thing, not its “authorship,” and denotes properly primacy in time, and primacy in rank, but not primacy in the sense of causing anything to exist. The two ideas which run through the word as it is used in the New Testament are those just suggested. For the former – primacy in regard to time – that is properly the commencement of a thing, see the following passages where the word occurs: Matthew 19:4, Matthew 19:8; Matthew 24:8, Matthew 24:21; Mark 1:1; Mark 10:6; Mark 13:8, Mark 13:19; Luke 1:2; John 1:1-2; John 2:11; John 6:64; John 8:25, John 8:44; John 15:27; John 16:4; Acts 11:15; 1 John 1:1; 1 John 2:7, 1 John 2:13-14, 1 John 2:24; 1 John 3:8, 1 John 3:11; 2 John 1:5-6. For the latter signification, primacy of rank or authority, see the following places: Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20; Romans 8:38; 1 Corinthians 15:24; Ephesians 1:21; Ephesians 3:10; Ephesians 6:12; Colossians 1:16, Colossians 1:18; Colossians 2:10, Colossians 2:15; Titus 3:1. The word is not, therefore, found in the sense of authorship, as denoting that one is the beginning of anything in the sense that he caused it to have an existence. As to the second of the significations suggested, that it means that he was the first created being, it may be observed:

(a) that this is not a necessary signification of the phrase, since no one can show that this is the only proper meaning which could be given to the words, and therefore the phrase cannot be adduced to prove that he is himself a created being. If it were demonstrated from other sources that Christ was, in fact, a created being, and the first that God had made, it cannot be denied that this language would appropriately express that fact. But it cannot be made out from the mere use of the language here; and as the language is susceptible of other interpretations, it cannot be employed to prove that Christ is a created being.

(b) Such an interpretation would be at variance with all those passages which speak of him as uncreated and eternal; which ascribe divine attributes to him; which speak of him as himself the Creator of all things. Compare John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:6,Hebrews 1:8, Hebrews 1:10-12. The third signification, therefore, remains, that he is “the beginning of the creation of God,” in the sense that he is the head or prince of the creation; that is, that he presides over it so far as the purposes of redemption are to be accomplished, and so far as is necessary for those purposes. This is:

(1) in accordance with the meaning of the word, Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20, et al. ut supra; and,

(2) in accordance with the uniform statements respecting the Redeemer, that “all power is given unto him in heaven and in earth” Matthew 28:18; that God has “given him power over all flesh” John 17:2; that all things are “put under his feet” the. John 2:8; 1 Corinthians 15:27); that he is exalted over all things, Ephesians 1:20-22. Having this rank, it was proper that he should speak with authority to the church at Laodicea.

from here:
http://bible.cc/revelation/3-14.htm

If we read what follows this verse, I believe that lends further proof that your view is in error:

Rev 3:15‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Revelations 3:14 is about someone who is in charge and Rev 3:14 is His resume' if you will, to support His authority of what He is about to tell the churches.

Your use of Rev 3:14 as proof that Jesus was the first created person is extremely weak. What are your other 'proofs' that the Son of God was created and not born? Remember, the word 'firstborn' is not 'first-created.'

Kathi

[Pastry]

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So, what we have are several translations that translate Rev 3:14 as the 'beginning of the creation of God' and several that imply a rulership or originator.

Kathi!  What we do have is six translations that state Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, and two that He is the ruler… Since there are six against two, it proves that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation to me….let the rest of the members judge for themselves….

Rev 3:15   I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.  

Rev 3:16   So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17   Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:  

Rev 3:18   I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.  

Rev 3:19   As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.  

Rev 3:20   Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.  

Rev 3:21   To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.  

Rev 3:22   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.  

Thee Scriptures are not ruling out that Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God…. verses 15-22 is talking about the Church of Laodiceans…

As far as Barnes is concerned, you should know by now that I don't care what any other man is saying, I go by Scripture, especially since He believes in the trinity….

BTW why is it so important to you, that I believe Jesus was born, or came forth from God that He was the beginning of the creation of God?  God is a creator and created all by Jesus… not that Jesus had the power all by Himself to do so…. According to Scripture it is God who through Jesus created all…. That proves also that Jesus was created by God…..

Col 1:16   FOR BY HIM him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  ….

Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  

Peace Irene

[Lightenup]

Irene,
you said:

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What we do have is six translations that state Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, and two that He is the ruler… Since there are six against two, it proves that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation to me….let the rest of the members judge for themselves….

Being called the 'beginning of the creation of God' does not prove that He was created. If it said that He was the created beginning then you would have proof.

Look at some other verses that have 'arche' in them and see that it is not saying that He was the first one created or else it would have to also say that he was the last one created.

12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Rev 21:3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Rev 1:17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

The Greek word for 'beginning' in these scriptures is the same as the one in Rev 3:14 but it in no way supports the first-created one.

Here is more proof that Jesus is not a creature:

Rev 5:Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

Jesus here is the 'lamb' not the creature that sings to Him. It says that EVERY CREATURE in HEAVEN…is singing TO the Lamb. The Lamb is not one of the group that is singing to Himself and therefore not part of the group that are created referred to here as the creature.

Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi!  
God is a creator, and He creates… Jesus is the firstborn of all creation…Arche has many meaning and is found many times in the Bible, like in the beginning in Mark 1:1…

I found this on the Internet…. Since I know very little Greek…

Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was “the first-born of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was “the beginning of God's creation.” (Revelation 3:14, ). “Beginning” [Greek, ar·khe'] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the 'beginner' of God's creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe' more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of “beginning.” Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God's invisible creations.

Pro 8:22 “The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.  

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [fn]

He formed us out of the dust of the earth… He created Jesus from nothing… He created the earth and the Heavens from nothing…. That is what God did, He created all, including Jesus……

Does it matter for our salvation, if Jesus was created or was the firstborn of all creation?  I don't think so…. I hope that we will find an end to this, since six other translators say the same thing…. Irene

[Lightenup]

Irene,

You asked:

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Does it matter for our salvation, if Jesus was created or was the firstborn of all creation?

You deny that Jesus was the firstborn, you believe that He was the first-created. You deny that He is the literal Son of God but a created son. To you He is not the Lord of all…the Lord of glory, the Lord of lords but that He is a created lord.

This is what Jesus says about those who deny the truth about Him.

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

So, I believe it is a salvation issue indeed.

Also, just because arche is translated in Revelations as 'beginning' it does not mean 'created.' I have shown you that Jesus is the 'beginning AND the end, the first and the last, the alpha and omega…not just the beginning. He certainly isn't the first created and the last created.

In fact, He who is the 'beginning' of all creation says this:

Deut 5 “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Look what happens to the 'unbelieving:'

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Here is the whole passage:

5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

So, Irene is the one who is the beginning and the end going to be your God and you be His 'child' or will you deny that He will be your God?

Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi!  No I don't deny that He is the firstborn of all creation,

No I don't deny He is the only begotten of the Father…

No, I don't deny that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings…

No I don't deny that He is the Son of Jehovah God.  

I also gave you the Scripture in Proverbs 8:22

Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.  

Any other accusation    Kathi…….Now I am  done with YOU… I don't need your crap….. Your the one who should look at some Scripture that tell you who God is…and what His Name alone is….

Yes, Kathi what happens to the unbelievers….. ..

You created the doctrine of the unity  of Jehovah….  your doctrine and not of God… And you want to tell me I am an unbeliever??  And I know Yeshua…Jehovah's Son….

Mat 15:9   But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.  

I don't even know you any more… what happened to you Kathi?  We used to believe the same thing… Now Keith and Jack think your post are fantastic… What does that show you, or does it??

Irene

[Lightenup]

Irene says:

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He formed us out of the dust of the earth… He created Jesus from nothing… He created the earth and the Heavens from nothing…. That is what God did, He created all, including Jesus……

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No I don't deny that He is the firstborn of all creation,

Irene contradicts herself.  She says that God created Jesus from nothing but at the same time says that she believes that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.

It can't be both ways.

If firstborn means first created then all parents of firstborns would be 'creators' and there is only one creator who created alone…Jehovah, who I believe is the unity of the Father and the Son and their Spirit.  I am certainly not alone in this belief.  Most Christians that I know believe this.  

Irene claims that Rev 3:14 tells us that Jesus was the first to be created because it says that He is the beginning of the creation of God.
King James Bible
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The Greek word 'arche'' is the one translated as 'beginning' in the KJV.  If Rev 3:14 means that 'beginning of the creation of God' insists on the understanding of 'first created' then you have to justify that in light of all the other uses of 'arche' in Revelations.  

Rev 21:5-8
5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Rev 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

     14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

     16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

King James Bible
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

King James Bible
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
This passage does not have the word 'arche' in it but it does identify who is the 'first and the last' which is in the other verse, and that is Jesus, His body died, not the Father's.

So, let's look at Rev 21
5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, thebeginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

The one who sits on the throne is the 'beginning' (arche') AND the end.  He will be 'God' to the one who overcomes, and the one who overcomes will be His 'son.'

If Rev 3:14 implies that beginning of all creation means that Jesus was created, then the other verses that say He is the beginning say He is the end and would imply that He was the end of creation and therefore nothing else would have been created.

That would make no sense.  Besides the one who is the arche' is the one who the overcomer will call His 'God' and the overcomer will be God's son.

Irene also uses Prov 8:22 as her proof text that Jesus was created.
She wrote:

Quote

Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Possessed doesn't mean 'create' and besides this passage is talking about wisdom.  It may be indicating that the wisdom of God is found in another and that I would agree.  Nevertheless, possessed does not mean created.

So, these passages are no way a proof of Jesus being created.

Irene says:

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No I don't deny He is the only begotten of the Father..

If one is begotten, they are born and not created.  Irene believes that the Son was created from nothing.  Irene can't have it both ways.

Irene says:

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No I don't deny that He is the Son of Jehovah God.

If the Son was created then He is not a literal Son.  Irene can't have it both ways.  He can't be created out of nothing and still be a literal Son.

Irene says:

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No, I don't deny that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings…

Irene believes that Jesus is a created Lord therefore He cannot be the Lord of lords.  You can't be created and be the highest 'Lord.'  

A jesus that is created cannot be a Jesus that was born…those are two different Jesus' and only one is the true Jesus.  Only the true Jesus will lead to the Father and to salvation.

Irene says:

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Yes, Kathi what happens to the unbelievers

Here the 'beginning and the end' tells us:

8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Irene says:

Quote

You created the doctrine of the unity  of Jehovah….  your doctrine and not of God… And you want to tell me I am an unbeliever??

That is a lie if I ever heard one.  The doctrine of the unity of Jehovah was being preached by the early church and is still being preached to this day.  Jehovah has been thought to be the name of the Son by the early church as well.  I, in no way created this doctrine.

Just google it and see that I am not the one to 'create' the idea.

Irene says:

Quote

Mat 15:9   But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Now this verse gets thrown around a lot when someone disagrees with you on here.  Men taught that Jesus was created, not scriptures and not the disciples and certainly not Jesus.  Jesus never once said that He was created.  The arians teach this and so does Irene.  

Irene says:

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We used to believe the same thing

I never believed that Jesus was created, I always believed in the unity of the Godhead, I always believed that Jesus was also called Jehovah. I always believed He was deity because He was the Son from deity.  I always believed that the Father was greater in position than the Son. The one thing that I changed my understanding in, is that I believe that the Son was always within the Father before He was begotten which would make Him eternal. I didn't used to believe in the co-eternal part.  

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Now Keith and Jack think your post are fantastic… What does that show you, or does it??

Well, I don't think 'fantastic' is the correct word but we do enjoy agreeing on the deity of the Son, the eternal nature of the Son and the compound unity of the Father and the Son and their Spirit.  We also agree on the value of GOING to church and have a deep appreciation of our local church.  I can certainly understand why they are opposed to those who believe that Jesus was created because it is false teaching which does not lead to knowing the true Jesus which cannot lead one to the true Father.  

He who believes that Jesus is a creature cannot at the same time believe that Jesus is the creator.  Those are two different Jesus'. Whether Jesus was the firstborn or first-created makes a huge difference on whether He is deity or not.   I believe He was the firstborn of God and eternal, not the first created of God-a mere creature.

Now, if I believe that teaching that Jesus was created out of nothing is a false doctrine, which I do, then I need to challenge the one who preaches this, whether they be young or old.  It is not a game here, this is not 'Farmville' from facebook. We can't just turn the other cheek because the one teaching a false doctrine is an older lady.  If I let Irene go unchallenged in this, that would not be the loving thing to do at all.

I understand that Irene does not want to continue to debate this and that is fine with me…but I am not the one running away from this discussion.

This website seems to address a lot of questions here on HN.  Someone might be interested in reading some of the writings.  I don't necessarily agree with everything but it does help sharpen you if you are interested in learning.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/index.htm#common_questions

Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father,
Kathi

[Author]

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