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Hi Nick,
Some people who answer the call of Messiah are of Ephaim Israel, and some are not. Some people who hear this word of lost Israel, believe it to be true, and some people do not. Your understanding of this is different than mine. Each must believe what is in our heart. I feel from your replies that you do not completly understand my attempts to explain. Much of what you say I said, is the opposite of what I meant. I have a hard time finding the correct words to be clear.
“All have to go through the same gate;” That is what I said, only in different words.
My statements: “anyone who accepts Messiah Yahshua as savior will be saved.”
“Yahshua died to pay the price for Israel's sin, so that they and all mankind can
be saved.”
“But the sheep consist of the decendants of Judah and Ephraim and also non-Israel
people who have accepted Yahshua as savior.”
“all gentile people are not Israel, but they are all equal to Israel through Messiah;”Messiah Yahshua is the gate.
When scripture says He is gathering Israel back from all the nations , that is not talking about the 1948 existance of the state of Israel. The majority of that state do not believe that Yahshua is Messiah.
This is speaking of the dispersed being brought back into communion with Yahweh through Yahshua.All Israel is not Israel. But all Israel will be saved.
The Jews did nothing for centuries, but the Messiah came to them first. for the first eight years all the followers were Jews. Elohim made a promise to Abraham, it was unconditional, no matter what Israel would do or not do, Elohim would keep that promise.
I did not say the old covenant was sufficient.
“But the ministry Yahshua received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, and is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with the first covenant, no place would have sought for another.”
The old covenant did not provide salvation, it only revealed a person's sin and condemmed them.
It made clear the need for a savior.This savior would be provided in the new covenant with “better promises.” Total forgiveness and eternal life.
There is a new and old covenant, but the new testament scripture did not exist in those times, the letters were just being written. The only scripture was the old testament writings.
It was these that the Bereans studied and tested what they heard.
Man took these , Elohim inspired, writings and letters, many centuries later and assembled them into a book called the new testament. No Word of Yahweh, Old or new will ever become obsolete.Sounds good Shakai 7,
Yes they were long posts and it is easy to misconstrue. Sorry.
By the way does one have to do to go through the gate?
And why are only 144,000 Jews shown in Revelation 7 and 14 I think?Hello,
Everyone, no matter who you are, must go through the gate of the Good Shepherd. It is Him and only Him who can set you free from the sin.Hebrews 9:12 “He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves; but He entered the Most Holy Place once, for all, by His own blood having obtained eternal redemption.”
15. “For this reason, Messiah is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called might receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
I do not know why only 144,000. Maybe it is figurative, stating 12,000 from each tribe, or maybe because this is a special group who come out the Jacob's trouble, (tribulation).
Rev. 8:9-10, speaks of people from every nation and tribe standing before the throne. Most of the 12 tribes will be among this multitude.
These 144,000 seem to have a special place with the Messiah. They sing a new song that no one else knows. They have the father's name written on their foreheads, and they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
Just my thought, but possibly they might be those in, Rev. 20:4-, those who had been beheaded for their testimony for Yahshua, they had not worshipped the beast or his image or received his mark on their foreheads or hands. Anyway, whether they are those are not, they have a special position with Messiah.
I am going to have look into that subject.
Sorry that I make my post so long, I try to explain my thoughts and probably it more confusing by so many words.
Shakai7
Hi S7,
Yes it seems that the 144,000 are alive at the time of Jacob's trouble rather than those who have died earlier, as their foreheads are sealed then-with his name and the name of the Father.I would suggest that those under the Old Covenant would have the Father's name only. Yes the number could be figurative.
Zech 12 .10 suggests that a spirit of repentance shall come on “the inhabitants af Jerusalem” and in 13.1f a “fountain to purify from sin and uncleanness” shall be open to the House of David.
The Gate “process” ,though,I have not seen you explain yet.Hello Nick,
The gate “process” I have never really researched it deeply. I looked into it this evening and this is my understanding.
John 10The watchman: Represents the prophets and their writings. Eze. 3:17 and 33:7 call the prophet
Ezekiel “watchman of Israel”. Hoshea 9:18 “the prophet along with my Elohim is the
watchman over Ephraim.”
The sheep pen: Represents a form of captivity, place where they are held with no way out. Possibly
being held under the Law by sin.
The Shepherd: Someone sent to His sheep by Elohim.
The Gate: Yahshua.Before Yahshua came and laid down His life,the sheep were being held in their pen without a gate.
There was no way out. All who came before Yahshua climbed in the pen by other means.
They were all thieves and robbers and came to steal, kill and destroy. Eze:34 speaks of these false shepherds.
The watchman, (prophet) opens the Gate by his words, revealing that Yahshua is the Messiah. The books of the prophets, show that Yahshua is the promissed Messiah, and that through Him, (the Gate)
the shepherd, ( one sent by Elohim) can lead his sheep out of the pen to pasture, to Yahweh, Abba Father. The sheep recognize the shepherd's voice and he goes ahead of them and the sheep follow him. They will not follow a stranger.
The prophet did not open a gate for any who came before Yahshua because the prophet's words revealed that they were not the Messiah.I understand it to say that Yahshua is the “Gate”, the only way out of the sheep pen, the only way out from captivity to freedom and to Yahweh.
S7
Good stuff Shakai 7,
Thank you .These are my gleanings.
Jn 10 1f “Truly I assure you. Whoever does not enter the sheepfold through the Gate but climbs in some other way is a thief and a marauder. The one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep;the keeper opens the gate for him. The sheep hear his voice as he call his own by name and leads them out When he has brought out all that are his he walks in front of them and the sheep follow him because they recognose his voice.They will not follow a stranger, such a onne they will flee because they do not recognise a stranger's voice”
7f”…I am the sheepgate. All who came before me were thieves and marauders whom the sheep did not heed.I am the Gate .Whoever enters through me will be safe. he will go in and out and find pasture”So all must first go through the gate of salvation-jew and greek. The shepherd goes first dying on the cross and fulfilling all of the demands of the Law perfectly. There is no one inside the pen of God -the body of Christ-at this stage.The Law could not offer comparable safety.
He is also the gate that all must enter through. All must repent and be baptised into that death to go through the gate into the pen. Going into the pen makes one a sheep that Jesus knows and will care for. And the sheep, empowered by the Spirit of Jesus, recognise the words of Jesus in the bible and the indwelling Spirit as the directions to follow.
All sheep must follow the shepherd who goes out again leading the sheep back into the world.To stay forever in the pen and enjoy the comfort and security there is against the will of the Shepherd.
Then they are all led out into the world as his witness and given different roles and freedom to go in and out of the security of the pen doing the shepherd's work in the world. He has promised to watch over and protect us each from the dangers that exist there. He wants us to confront the wolf and the lion and overcome them leading others to the safety of the pen. It is safest to stay near the other sheep and be able to still hear the voice of the Shepherd.Hope it helps.
ps, Note that the sheep cannot see the Shepherd but only hear his voice.
With regard to the return of Israel to the kingdom this is from Ez 36.24
” For I will take you away FROM AMONG THE NATIONS, gather you FROM ALL THE FOREIGN LANDS and bring you back TO YOUR OWN LAND.”
Certainly it goes on to say they will be given a new heart and God's Spirit. The land is rebuilt UNDER THE KINGSHIP OF JESUS and becomes fruitful again.
” you shall live in THE LAND I GAVE YOUR FATHERS, YOU SHALL BE MY PEOPLE AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD”So as I read it it is both a physical return to the land of Israel as well as a spiritual rebirth. Do you agree?
Hello, Nick
Yes I do agree, the spiritual rebirth will happen first. That is what has begun now, what I have written about so much, the awakening of the lost sheep of Israel, a rebirth spoken of in Eze. 37. Initiated by the sacrifice of the Messiah, making it all possible.I agree that the people of Israel will be gathered back to their own land. Their original land mass is much much larger than the little, man made state called Israel, today. Mostly Jews have returned to the land at this time. Many prople, who are of the other tribes that are scattered among the nations are becomming aware that they are of the other house of Israel, Ephraim. They are turning back to the OT to learn about their own history, realizing now that it is their history, and that they are not gentiles, but only living among them.
When Messiah returns, the good shepherd will then gather all His sheep back to their original lands.
He will place His Sanctuary among them forever, He will rule from Jeruaslem and all nations will come before Him. He will rule for 1000 years from there. This will be the true restored kingdom of Israel.This is what all the books of the prophets are speaking about. Isaiah (Yesha-YAH-hu), Jeremiah (Yiremi-YAH-hu), Hoshea, Amos, Ezeki-EL, Zechariah (Zekar-YAH)….
If a person would read these books, understanding the the two house issue, it would become clear.S7
ok S&,
How can anyone tell if he is of Ephraim or just a ordinary gentile? As and Irish celt I think it unlikely that I am.Hi,
For the others who believe that they are of Ephraim Israel I can not speak. For myself, I was drawn to the OT, in an attempt to better undersand the NT. I was in a full gospel non-denominational church.
I always studied the NT and found that what my church was teaching, I had a different understading of scriptures. I suspected that the church was influenced by pagan religions. It rejected so much that we know came from the true God, even if it was OT, and accepted so much from pagan religions.
The more I studied the OT I realized that Elohim was not finished with Israel. That all the prophetic books were written to and about Israel.
Then I found other people, who had the same desire and were drawn in the same direction as myself.“How can anyone tell if he is of Ephraim or an ordinary gentile?” For me it was an understanding in my heart. That understanding came after deeply studying Israel's history, what happened to that divided nation and prophecies for their restoration. Then bringing that new education into my NT study changed my whole understanding of the plan of Elohim. Finding others who have the same understanding, the same revelations.
Ephraim Israel was scattered among the nations. Yahweh promised to gather them back after provision was made for their sin. Yahshua comes, dies, sends His shepherds to gather the lost sheep of Israel. He called His sheep, by His own word they would hear His voice and recognize it. Who heard His voice? Me and you along with countless others. Why did we listen? Maybe because we are His Sheep, and He said that His sheep are Israel. From OT to NT, it just all comes together.Someone who does not see this revelation, maybe they are gentile. It may only be for those who are decended from Jacob.
S7hI s7,
It seems to come back to the idea that if you respond you are likely to be Ephraim, but no one can prove anything. If it cannot be proven how is it useful to know?
Eph 2.11f
” you men of gentile stock-called 'uncircumcised' by those who by virtue of a hand executed rite on the flesh call them selves 'circumcised'-remember that in former times you had no part in christ and were EXCLUDED FROM THE COMMUNITY OF ISRAEL. You were strangers to THE COVENANT and IT'S PROMISE;you were without hope and without Christ in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who were oncew far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. It ois he who is our peace and who made the two of us one by breaking down the barrier of hostility that kept us apart. In HIS OWN FLESH HE ABOLISHED THE LAW WITH IT”S COMMAND AND PRECEPTS ”
This appears to speak to non Ephraim does it not? True gentiles. Yet being born into Jesus, as we are, abolishes the Law for us. The law still exists but this suggests it, including the sabbath, does not apply to us. Even if we are Ephraim there is not advantage ,and some major disadvantages, to becoming a jew again under the OT.If we go back under the Law we are bound to it in it's entirety and are severed from Christ[Gal 5.3]
Gal 4.10″ You even go back as far as to keep the ceremonial observance of days, and seasons and years.Abraham received the promise before the Law was given.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2004,01:18) Hi,
In the salvation picture painted in Revelation only 144,000 of the Israelites are named as saved. The are the first fruits with 12,000 from each tribe and they serve God's throne. Even they have the name of the Father and the Lamb on their foreheads suggesting they must have repented and accepted Jesus.
I know in Zech 12.10f it say the Holy Spirit is poured out on the Jews so they repent and mourn for the “one they have pierced” and 13.1 suggests they will receive baptism into him.
What I am concerned about is the apparently small number of 144,000. I realise that some will have come into the kingdom prior to that time and will be among those wearing white in Rev 7.
The other possibility is that this is an allegorical number.Either way it seems the way of Jesus is more secure.
Who can help here?
Greetings Nick: Your post reminds me of the disaccord between the Christians and the Jews.The new covenant was/is promised to Israel alone (Heb 8:6-12)
Revelations is all about the new covenant, And is addressed to the circumcision only. When “nations” are mentioned in Revelations they are always outside (not inside) the city. Methinks also that the 144,000 number is an allegorical number (as you suggest)
Christians have been promised a heavenly destiny (among the celestials) Eph 2:4-9)
Regardless, I will admit to being a little saddened. I was hoping that we would all be together (finally) Jews and Christians both.
David (who is posting for the first time and hopes he is not intruding here)
Hi Nick,
I have never said or implied becomming a Jew under the OT. I am not a Jew, can not become one, don't want to become one.Eph.2: To my understanding is speaking of Ephraim. From NT understanding only, as is the church, they interpret it as best they can with their limited resources. The church, with it's diluted greek influence has taken away all Hebrewness from the NT.
Elohim seperated the whole house of Israel into two kingdoms. A northern kingdom and a southern kingdom. The southern kingdom consisted of Judah, Levi. The northern kingdom consisted of the remaining tribes. Elohim spoke to Jereboam, who He made King over the northern tribes called Ephraim. Elohim re-established a covenant with Jereboam and if he and his kingdom would keep the covnant they would recieve all the blessings. The people of Eprhaim would still have to go to Jerusalem, which was part of Judah, twice a year to keep feast. Jereboam became frightened that his people would return to Judah and to the temple in Jerusalem, and leave his rule. Jereboam set up his own religious system, with it's own priest, not from the tribe of Levi, it's own holy days and sabbath day. He set up his own pagan temples and places of worship borrowing from the pagans.
Sounds familiar!
This was adultery to Elohim, so He allowed the nation of Assyria to come down and conquer the northern kingdom and take them off into captivity. Only Judah was left.
The people were asimilated into Assyria and were eventually dispersed into other nations, where they lived as gentiles. No more Torah, no more covenant, no more circumcision, which was a physical sign given to the people of Israel through Abraham. They had no more prophets to warn them, no more communion with Yahweh. They were just as pagan gentiles.The southern tribe, Judah which was still in Jerusalem, still under the covenant with Elohim, even though thet did not keep it. 130 years later, give or take a few years, Judah was taken into Babylon.
They returned to Jerusalem, bringing Babylonian corruption with them.In the time of Yahshua the Jews of Judah who were circumcised and lived under a corrupt version of Yahweh's covenant, believed that you must be circumcised to become a child of Elohim. They could not associate with the uncircumcised, whether true gentile, or Ephraim. They looked upon Ephraim as if they were gentiles. From the time of their division, centuries earlier, there was emnity between the two houses of Israel. They almost went to war against each other just after their breakup, but Elohim stopped it. But there remained “bad blood” between them. With Ephraim living as gentiles, without covenant and uncircumcised, Judah would have nothing to do with them. That is why Peter had to be
corrected by Elohim with the tablecloth vision.My understanding:
Speaking to Ephraim who were living as gentiles, now through Messiah can return to the Family of Yahweh.
“Remember that at that time you were seperate from Messiah, excluded from the citizenship in Israel;” ( how could gentiles be citizens of Israel, since Israel was a family of people related by birth?), “foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope, without Elohim, in the world.” (sounds like Ephraim's curse)
“But now in Messiah Yahshua you who were once far away have been brought near through the blood of Messiah.”
“For He Himself is our peace, Who has made the two one and has desroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility.”
(He has made the two what, one?)
“By abolishing in His flesh the law with it's commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in Himself one new man out of the two,” (what two?) “thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile them both to Yahweh through the stake, by which He put to death hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.” (who was far away and who was near?)
“For through Him we both have access to the Father.”
“Consequently you are no longer foreigners or aliens, but fellow citizens with Elohim's people and members of Elohim's household, built on the foundation of the prophets and aposles, with Messiah Yahshua being the chief conerstone.”I see the two, as being Judah and Ephraim, who had been seperated, being made one as promised by the peophets.
Yahshua did this by freeing them from the requirements of the law with His blood. And through Messiah Yahshua all who will accept His redemption become a new man, free from what held them away from Elohim, and are now fellow citizens and family.
Which takes me back to the Sabbath, it is a sign between Elohim and His people, Israel, forever.Circumcision is still required, only now it is of the heart.
Some of us are Ephraim Israel and some are true gentiles, we must each be led as the Spirit of Yahshua puts it in out hearts. We must be convinced in our heart and act on that.
S7
Welcome David,
You are not intruding and all serious and honest students of the bible are valued here.
Heb 8 does say it is a new covenant with Israel but I do not think that is an exclusive statement.Those words quoted were addressed to the Jews but God makes it plain gentiles are welcome.
I find myself stretched S7 to read Eph 2 as exclusive to Ephraim, in fact it reads the opposite to me-those who have no part in the first covenant.Hi s7,
I respect your view and would like to learn more about the OT perspectives as they are important.
If gentiles were called 'dogs' then was that not a wall of hostility too between jew and gentile?
The 'other sheep' of John 10 may also apply to those sheep saved in the 'sheep and goat judgement' of Mt 25.Rev 11.1f” Someone gave me a measuring rod and said
“Come and take the measurements of God's temple and altar and count those who worship there.Exclude the outer court of the temple, however;do not measure it ,for it has been handed over to the gentiles who will crush the holy city for 42 months”
This has got to relate to the separation of those in Jesus [Jew and gentile alike]from the dead unsaved religious people who inhabit the outer court but do not enter the inner sanctums. The gentiles here are totally outside the covenants as invaders of Jerusalem in the 3 and a half year second half of Jacob's trouble. Do you agree?
Is Ez 40 -48 the detail of the Millenial kingdom outlaid in vision?
David. How is Revelation addressed to those of the circumcision?Hello Nick,
I understand that it seems a stretch, I once understood it as you do. When a friend first told me of his understanding, gentiles are Israel, I rejected it too. I thought it was rediculous, a contradiction.
We both had studied the OT to gain a deeper understanding of the NT and had seen that Ephraim was scattered among the nations. But I still could not see gentiles being Ephraim.I remembered reading in Romans 9:24-26, Paul speaking to Roman believers, seemingly gentiles as I understood it, but the quote was from the prophet Hoshea. Word for word from Hoshea. Yet Hoshea was speaking to, the people of Israel, about, the people of Israel, and what Elohim was going to do with them. He even had Hoshea marry a prostitute so that Hosea could truly feel what Elohim felt about His wife, Israel. The entire book of Hoshea explains this.
I thought, how can Elohim make this prophecy to Israel in Hoshea and Paul claim it's fulfillment to gentiles? That was when the realization came to me. Ephraim Israel was scattered among the gentiles, and it was they who Paul was addressing. Only through my study from the OT could that connection be made. Yahweh knew the ending when He spoke through Hoshea, so He knew who Paul would be talking to.
He is the same yesterday, today and forever. What He says, will come to pass, and it did.Even though you don't see this, I have enjoyed studying and being free to make my case.
S7
Hi S7,
Ez 47 21f speaks of all the 12 tribes of Israel by name and also says
” So you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. And it shall come about that you shall divide it by lot for an inheritance among yourselves AND AMONG THE ALIENS WHO STAY IN YOUR MIDST, who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you as the native born among the sons of Israel;they shall be allotted an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel”
So these gentiles are true aliens and not of the 12 tribes?Hello Nick,
Yes, part of the old covenant was that any foreigner who who wants to serve Yahweh will become Israel. I have written about that in earlier post.
Is. 56:3 “Let no foreigner who has bound himself to Yahweh say, Yahweh will surely exclude me from His people,”
6.”and foreigners who bind themselves to Yahweh to serve Him, to love the name of Yahweh, and to worship Him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to My covenant, these I will bring to My holy mountain and give them joy in My house of prayer.”Ez.47;21, Even before Israel was dispersed, Yahweh had made a provision for aliens to become Israel.
If they were to live among the tribes of Israel, they must keep the covenant made with Israel, serving Yahweh, worshipping Him, love His holy name and including keeping Yahweh's Sabbath. Then they will join in Israel's inheritance, because they are now Israel, no longer gentile aliens.Now take that to the book of Romans and Ephesians.
The tribe of Benjamin had gone to war against the other eleven tribes and was defeated. The rest of Israel killed all of Benjamin's wives and children and left the men of Benjamin without decendants.
The leaders of the eleven tribes came together and agreed to prohibit the men of Benjamin from marrying their daughters. They decided that they could not leave their brothers without decendants so they allowed the men of Bejamin to kidnap foreign women from a river where they were washing.
These were to be their wives, and their children would become Bejamin's decendants.I have not said that every time the word gentile is mentioned it is speaking of Ephraim Israel, there are times when it refers to true gentiles. But the overall message from OT to NT is that Yahweh has hidden His people, Ephraim, among the gentiles, seperated from Him, as a curse to them. But by doing so He is keeping His promise to Abraham, that his seed would fill the nations. Also Yahweh has hidden His people from satan, who wants to destroy them. Yahweh hid Moshe right under Pharoah's nose, in Pharoah's own house, being cared for by Pharoah's daughter, while satan used him to kill all the new born male children.
He also hid Yahshua, at His birth, again in Egypt, while satan used Harod to kill all the male children.
In Rev.12 we find Elohim hiding a woman wearing a crown with twelve stars on her head, she had given birth to a male child who would rule the nations, Elohim was hiding her from the serpent.
Who is this woman? She is the opposite of Babylon.
S7Yes the woman is Israel who gives birth to Jesus, the ruler of the nations, and the twelve stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
But you seem to imply that the seed of Abraham is physical. That one must be descended from Abraham to receive the blessing that was given to his seed.
Not all of Abraham's physical children are inheritors of the promise as only the children of Isaac are blessed. Hagar's child represents the Law but Sarah's the promise and faith. [gal 4]
And not all those who receive the promise are physical descendants of Abraham. Rather as Gal 3 says “Those who believe are sons of Abraham”
and v13
” Christ has delivered us from the power of the Law's curse by becoming a curse for us,as it is written
' Accursed is anyone who is hanged from a tree'
This has happened so that through Jesus Christ the blessing bestowed on Abraham might descend on the Gentiles in Christ Jesus…”
These are not physical descendants are they?So we agree to differ in that you see most of the gentiles as Israelites where I accept many would be but most are true gentiles.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 28 2004,09:17) I find myself stretched S7 to read Eph 2 as exclusive to Ephraim, in fact it reads the opposite to me-those who have no part in the first covenant.
Nick: I would agree. Please note what I said (in my previous post)>>
Christians have been promised a heavenly destiny (among the celestials) Eph 2:4-9)
>>
PS: Someone has grabbed my username (and never posted) My real name is David. Any chance that I can have it
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